Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related fam

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Vickie Elam White

Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related fam

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 23 jun 2007 04:46:08

I've begun looking into Jeremiah Norcross of Watertown, MA. He evidently had a step-son named John Bland alias Smith, and in his will he named Charles Chadwick of Watertown his "brother." Also, Stephen Paine of Watertown called him his "uncle." Jeremiah came to New England between 1 Nov 1636 and 1638. He lived in Watertown but died in England in 1657 while visiting there.

The extracted entry in the online IGI shows Jeremiah's marriage to Audrey Smith on 24 Sep 1611 in St. Luke, Chelsea, London. He was listed as Jeremy Norcrofte. The baptisms of his son Richard in 1621 and daughter Mary in 1626 were in the extracted entries in the online IGI for Allhallows Bread St., London. I cannot find the baptisms for his son Nathaniel b. ca 1618 and daughter Sarah, although Sarah's children by Francis Massey seem to all be recorded in St. Mary Aldermary, London from 1636 to 1647.

Supposedly, Jeremiah's wife Audrey was married first to a Bland, then to a Smith and her son used the surname of his Smith step-father. Evidently he was married to an Isabel Drake who died in Watertown in 1639, then he married a Joanna and moved to Martha's Vineyard with other Watertown families in 1642. By his first wife 3 daughters, including one named Isabel who married first Francis Austin and then Thomas Leavitt. In the course of his estate probate, various Drake relatives of testified that he was from Colchester, Essex, England and was a Bland by birth. The 1632 marriage record for his daughter Isabel and Francis Austin in St. Mary The Virgin At The Walls, Colchester, Essex calls her Isabel Smith. John Bland alias Smith seems to have come to New England between 1632 and 1635 because his daughter Annabell married William Barsham of Watertown before 1635. Barsham came on the Winthrop Fleet in 1630, but there is no indication that he brought a wife with him.

Is there any truth to Audrey's having 3 husbands, or was John Bland alias Smith an illegitimate son? Why didn't her son John move to London with her? Does anyone know the name of her first 2 husbands? Also, Jeremiah Norcross is usually listed as being born ca 1590. So, either his wife Audrey was a lot older than him, he was actually born quite a bit before 1590, or something is fishy with this ancestry. If her son John Bland alias Smith had a daughter who married in 1632, she was probably born bef 1614 (give or take a few years). So that would mean that he was born by say 1590, the same age as his step-father!

Was Jeremiah Norcross really related to Charles Chadwick or was he simply using the term "brother" in the religious meaning? And how was Stephen Paine related to Jeremiah Norcross?

I appreciate any help with this.


Vickie Elam White

Gjest

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jun 2007 03:44:40

Vickie Elam White wrote:
I've begun looking into Jeremiah Norcross of Watertown, MA. He evidently had a step-son named John Bland alias Smith, and in his will he named Charles Chadwick of Watertown his "brother." Also, Stephen Paine of Watertown called him his "uncle." Jeremiah came to New England between 1 Nov 1636 and 1638. He lived in Watertown but died in England in 1657 while visiting there.


Was Jeremiah Norcross really related to Charles Chadwick or was he simply using the term "brother" in the religious meaning? And how was Stephen Paine related to Jeremiah Norcross?

I appreciate any help with this.


Vickie Elam White


Stephen Paine was from Great Ellingham, Norfolk.
See NEHGR 143 (1989), 291-302.

You might find Norcross family members in the
Norfolk wills.

Looking at the published Essex will index, I believe
there were more than a few persons with the Bland alias Smith
surname.
People used the alias for various reasons, and often times
they eventually stuck with one surname or another.

Leslie

Vickie Elam White

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 25 jun 2007 16:07:01

Leslie,

Thanks for your response, but I was under the impression that this Stephen
Paine was not the one who was Jeremiah Norcross' nephew. Rather, the
Stephen Paine who married Elizabeth Carrington, daughter of Edward, and
lived in Charlestown was the nephew. He died in Charlestown in 1693.

Am I wrong?


Vickie Elam White


----- Original Message -----
From: <lmahler@att.net>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown,MA plus related
families Bland, Smith, Chadwick, Paine


Vickie Elam White wrote:
I've begun looking into Jeremiah Norcross of Watertown, MA. He
evidently had a step-son named John Bland alias Smith, and in his will he

named Charles Chadwick of Watertown his "brother." Also, Stephen Paine of
Watertown called him his "uncle." Jeremiah came to New England between 1 Nov
1636 and 1638. He lived in Watertown but died in England in 1657 while
visiting there.

Was Jeremiah Norcross really related to Charles Chadwick or was he
simply using the term "brother" in the religious meaning? And how was

Stephen Paine related to Jeremiah Norcross?
I appreciate any help with this.


Vickie Elam White


Stephen Paine was from Great Ellingham, Norfolk.
See NEHGR 143 (1989), 291-302.

You might find Norcross family members in the
Norfolk wills.

Looking at the published Essex will index, I believe
there were more than a few persons with the Bland alias Smith
surname.
People used the alias for various reasons, and often times
they eventually stuck with one surname or another.

Leslie


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mhollick@mac.com

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av mhollick@mac.com » 25 jun 2007 16:48:04

I would check out these sources as well:

Robert Charles Anderson "The Great Migration Begins; Immigrants to New
England 1620-1633" Vol. 1 (NEHGS, Boston, 1995) 1:108-111
"John Smith of Watertown, Massachusetts" by Robert Charles Anderson,
TAG 61 (1985):18-31

Robert Forrest

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 25 jun 2007 16:56:21

In his article, "John Smith of Watertown, Massachusetts," in The American
Genealogist (TAG 61:18+, 1985), Robert Charles Anderson sorts out three
different John Smiths. He concludes that John Bland alias Smith was about
the same age as Adrean, wife of Jeremiah Norcross, possibly even a bit
older. In doing so he corrected an idea that seems to have started with a
mistake by Charles E. Banks in his three-volume "History of Martha's
Vineyard, Dukes County, Mass.", 1925. He also has information on Norcross,
his wills, and his children by his first marriage. Banks' work does offer
some further information on Norcross which might be helpful to you. From
Vol. 2, Edgartown Town Annals, he refers to him as:
"...Jeremiah Norcross, a well-to-do gentleman of a London family, connected
with the parishes of St. Mary, Sunbury, Middlesex and Saints Dunstan and
Sepulchre in London. He was son of Thomas Norcross, a linen draper, married
his second wife, Adrian Smith, about 1630 and came to America 8 or 9 years
later. (footnote: A manuscript gen. of this family by Joel W. Norcross, in
the library of the NEHGS, furnished many corroborative facts in the
Bland-Smith search. This gen. gives no authority for date of second
marriage)..."

I am a descendant of John Bland and his first wife Isabel Drake, through
their daughter Isabel, whose second husband was Thomas Leavitt of Hampton,
NH.

Robert Forrest

Gjest

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jun 2007 22:42:04

On 23 Jun., 04:46, "Vickie Elam White" <VEWh...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
The extracted entry in the online IGI shows Jeremiah's marriage to Audrey Smith on 24 Sep 1611 in St. Luke, Chelsea, London. He was listed as Jeremy Norcrofte. The baptisms of his son Richard in 1621 and daughter Mary in 1626 were in the extracted entries in the online IGI for Allhallows Bread St., London. I cannot find the baptisms for his son Nathaniel b. ca 1618 and daughter Sarah, although Sarah's children by Francis Massey seem to all be recorded in St. Mary Aldermary, London from 1636 to 1647.

Supposedly, Jeremiah's wife Audrey was married first to a Bland, then to a Smith and her son used the surname of his Smith step-father. Evidently he was married to an Isabel Drake who died in Watertown in 1639, then he married a Joanna and moved to Martha's Vineyard with other Watertown families in 1642. By his first wife 3 daughters, including one named Isabel who married first Francis Austin and then Thomas Leavitt. In the course of his estate probate, various Drake relatives of testified that he was from Colchester, Essex, England and was a Bland by birth. The 1632 marriage record for his daughter Isabel and Francis Austin in St. Mary The Virgin At The Walls, Colchester, Essex calls her Isabel Smith.

Is there any truth to Audrey's having 3 husbands, or was John Bland alias Smith an illegitimate son? Why didn't her son John move to London with her? Does anyone know the name of her first 2 husbands? Also, Jeremiah Norcross is usually listed as being born ca 1590. So, either his wife Audrey was a lot older than him, he was actually born quite a bit before 1590, or something is fishy with this ancestry. If her son John Bland alias Smith had a daughter who married in 1632, she was probably born bef 1614 (give or take a few years). So that would mean that he was born by say 1590, the same age as his step-father!

What makes this more suspicious is the "fact" that Jeremy's daughter
Mary was born circa 1626 (according to the baptism you cite above) -
assuming Audrey was her mother, it is hard to credit that she also had
a *granddaughter* married in 1632, especially as the granddaughter was
via a son.

MA-R

Vickie Elam White

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 25 jun 2007 23:38:39

No, the child who married Francis Austin in 1632 was Isabel Smith, daughter
of Audrey's son John Bland alias Smith. Mary Norcross b. in 1626 actually
died that same year.

Today I found that Jeremiah's daughter Sarah Norcross married Francis Massey
before 1632. The baptism for their daughter Sarah Massey took place on 30
Sep 1632 in Sunbury on Thames, London. Jeremiah's second will, which he
wrote in 1656 in England (his first one was written in 1654 before he sailed
for England), mentions granddaughters Sarah and Scarfes (sic) Massey. Maybe
that second name is Scarlett? Anyway, I haven't found her baptismal record
yet, but she was named after Sarah so was probably born after her. I don't
know why Jeremiah didn't name the other Massey children, but it is possible
I suppose, that the first Sarah died and another one was born and she and
Scarfes (sic) were quite young. It's a puzzle.

Anyway, thanks for your input.


Vickie Elam White




<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1182807724.951216.78970@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On 23 Jun., 04:46, "Vickie Elam White" <VEWh...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

The extracted entry in the online IGI shows Jeremiah's marriage to
Audrey Smith on 24 Sep 1611 in St. Luke, Chelsea, London. He was listed as

Jeremy Norcrofte. The baptisms of his son Richard in 1621 and daughter Mary
in 1626 were in the extracted entries in the online IGI for Allhallows Bread
St., London. I cannot find the baptisms for his son Nathaniel b. ca 1618
and daughter Sarah, although Sarah's children by Francis Massey seem to all
be recorded in St. Mary Aldermary, London from 1636 to 1647.
Supposedly, Jeremiah's wife Audrey was married first to a Bland, then to
a Smith and her son used the surname of his Smith step-father. Evidently

he was married to an Isabel Drake who died in Watertown in 1639, then he
married a Joanna and moved to Martha's Vineyard with other Watertown
families in 1642. By his first wife 3 daughters, including one named Isabel
who married first Francis Austin and then Thomas Leavitt. In the course of
his estate probate, various Drake relatives of testified that he was from
Colchester, Essex, England and was a Bland by birth. The 1632 marriage
record for his daughter Isabel and Francis Austin in St. Mary The Virgin At
The Walls, Colchester, Essex calls her Isabel Smith.
Is there any truth to Audrey's having 3 husbands, or was John Bland
alias Smith an illegitimate son? Why didn't her son John move to London

with her? Does anyone know the name of her first 2 husbands? Also,
Jeremiah Norcross is usually listed as being born ca 1590. So, either his
wife Audrey was a lot older than him, he was actually born quite a bit
before 1590, or something is fishy with this ancestry. If her son John
Bland alias Smith had a daughter who married in 1632, she was probably born
bef 1614 (give or take a few years). So that would mean that he was born by
say 1590, the same age as his step-father!
What makes this more suspicious is the "fact" that Jeremy's daughter
Mary was born circa 1626 (according to the baptism you cite above) -
assuming Audrey was her mother, it is hard to credit that she also had
a *granddaughter* married in 1632, especially as the granddaughter was
via a son.

MA-R



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----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown,MA plus related
families Bland, Smith, Chadwick, Paine


On 23 Jun., 04:46, "Vickie Elam White" <VEWh...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

The extracted entry in the online IGI shows Jeremiah's marriage to
Audrey Smith on 24 Sep 1611 in St. Luke, Chelsea, London. He was listed as

Jeremy Norcrofte. The baptisms of his son Richard in 1621 and daughter Mary
in 1626 were in the extracted entries in the online IGI for Allhallows Bread
St., London. I cannot find the baptisms for his son Nathaniel b. ca 1618
and daughter Sarah, although Sarah's children by Francis Massey seem to all
be recorded in St. Mary Aldermary, London from 1636 to 1647.
Supposedly, Jeremiah's wife Audrey was married first to a Bland, then to
a Smith and her son used the surname of his Smith step-father. Evidently

he was married to an Isabel Drake who died in Watertown in 1639, then he
married a Joanna and moved to Martha's Vineyard with other Watertown
families in 1642. By his first wife 3 daughters, including one named Isabel
who married first Francis Austin and then Thomas Leavitt. In the course of
his estate probate, various Drake relatives of testified that he was from
Colchester, Essex, England and was a Bland by birth. The 1632 marriage
record for his daughter Isabel and Francis Austin in St. Mary The Virgin At
The Walls, Colchester, Essex calls her Isabel Smith.
Is there any truth to Audrey's having 3 husbands, or was John Bland
alias Smith an illegitimate son? Why didn't her son John move to London

with her? Does anyone know the name of her first 2 husbands? Also,
Jeremiah Norcross is usually listed as being born ca 1590. So, either his
wife Audrey was a lot older than him, he was actually born quite a bit
before 1590, or something is fishy with this ancestry. If her son John
Bland alias Smith had a daughter who married in 1632, she was probably born
bef 1614 (give or take a few years). So that would mean that he was born by
say 1590, the same age as his step-father!
What makes this more suspicious is the "fact" that Jeremy's daughter
Mary was born circa 1626 (according to the baptism you cite above) -
assuming Audrey was her mother, it is hard to credit that she also had
a *granddaughter* married in 1632, especially as the granddaughter was
via a son.

MA-R



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Gjest

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jun 2007 08:29:00

On 25 Jun., 23:38, "Vickie Elam White" <VEWh...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
No, the child who married Francis Austin in 1632 was Isabel Smith, daughter
of Audrey's son John Bland alias Smith. Mary Norcross b. in 1626 actually
died that same year.

Vicki

I see I have not expressed myself clearly enough:

Jeremy's youngest child was baptised in 1626, and we may therefore
posit a birth of circa 1626. If Audrey was her mother, then Audrey
must still have been of child-bearing age circa 1626.

We also know that Audrey's son John had a daughter of his own (Isabel)
who was married in 1632 - i.e. Audrey's granddaughter was old enough
to be married in 1632, so we must posit a birthdate for her of, say,
no later than 1618, but likely rather earlier. Her father, then, is
likely to have been born no later than 1601 (but again, likely
earlier), which would give Audrey a birthdate of say, 1586. This
would make it chronologically possible for her to still be bearing
children as late as 1626 - but is it likely? I suspect not, and it
would cause me to question to received genealogy.

MA-R

Larsy

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Larsy » 26 jun 2007 17:10:42

for England), mentions granddaughters Sarah and Scarfes (sic) Massey. Maybe
that second name is Scarlett? Anyway, I haven't found her baptismal record

Vickie, I wonder if Scarfes isn't "Frances" with some funky f's going
on. Maybe she was named Frances after her pops Francis ...?

Vickie Elam White

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 27 jun 2007 01:20:41

You're absolutely right! Now why didn't I think of that? ;-)

Actually, I looked at the will again and Jeremiah calls them his two
grandchildren, not two granddaughters. And Francis and Sarah did have a son
named Francis (they had 2 but one died and the next son was named after
him).

Thanks for your input.


Vickie Elam White


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsy" <ravinmaven2001@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown,MA plus related
families Bland, Smith, Chadwick, Paine


for England), mentions granddaughters Sarah and Scarfes (sic) Massey.
Maybe
that second name is Scarlett? Anyway, I haven't found her baptismal
record

Vickie, I wonder if Scarfes isn't "Frances" with some funky f's going
on. Maybe she was named Frances after her pops Francis ...?


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Larsy

Re: Jeremiah Norcross of London & Watertown, MA plus related

Legg inn av Larsy » 27 jun 2007 15:30:49

You're absolutely right! Now why didn't I think of that? ;-)

Actually, I looked at the will again and Jeremiah calls them his two
grandchildren, not two granddaughters. And Francis and Sarah did have a son
named Francis (they had 2 but one died and the next son was named after
him).

Thanks for your input.

Vickie Elam White

Glad to help. My rule of thumb on outlandish names is to check if
there is an "F" masquerading as "S" or vice-a-versa.

Svar

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