Two Margaret Skipwiths

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John Watson

Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John Watson » 17 jun 2007 01:51:29

Dear all,

According to two visitation pedigrees [1,2], Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough [ca. 1350 - 1401] married an unnamed daughter of Sir
William Skipwith. That her name was Margaret and she was the widow of
Alexander Surtees is shown in an entry in the Patent Rolls for 1384
[3]. That her name was Margaret is also confirmed in the nuncupative
will of Robert Constable proved on 8 Jan 1401 [4].

So that seems perfectly straightforward, Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

The problem is, that Sir William Skipwith and Alice had another
daughter called Margaret, who married firstly Hugh de Cressy and
secondly Henry Vavasour of Hazlewood. That this daughter was called
Margaret and that she was was their daughter is shown in the will of
Henry Vavasour [proved Mar 1413], where he leaves gifts to John
Skipwith and Alice Skipwith and he names his wife Margaret as executor
[5]. In Margaret's will [6], [proved Aug 1416] she leaves gifts to
John Skipwith, her mother Alice and to her brothers Thomas and
Patrick. John, Thomas and Patrick are shown as sons of Sir William
Skipwith and Alice in pedigrees of the family [7].

So that seems also perfectly straightforward, Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

So unless Sir William Skipwith had two daughters named Margaret, which
I suppose is possible, but unlikely, one of these identifications is
incorrect. On balance, I'd say the Margaret Skipwith who married
Alexander Surtees and Robert Constable was not a daughter of William
Skipwith, but she does seem to have some Skipwith connection. When her
first husband died, leaving her with a son Thomas Surtees, aged 20
weeks, his marriage was given by the king to William Skipwith [8]

Does anyone have any comments or further evidence concerning the
identifications of these two Margarets?

Regards,

John
in KL

[1] Sir Robert Counstable, Knight m. .... doghter of William Skypwyth
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564, Harleian Society, Vol 16,
London, 1881, p 64]

[2] Sir Robert Constable m. ..... dau. of Sir William Skipwith
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 & 1612, Joseph Foster, London,
1875, p 178]

[3] 20 Jan 1384: Pardon, for 40s. paid to the king by Robert
Conestable of Flaynburgh to him and Margaret, late the wife of
Alexander Surtays, tenant in chief for intermarrying without licence.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 381]

[4] "Margaretae uxori suae" [Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II, Surtees
Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 264]

[5] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith unum equum nigrum. .. Item lego
Aliciae de Skipwith unum annulum de auro cum uno diamawnde. Residuum -
Margaretm uxori meae --- Executores - Margareta uxor."[Testamenta
Eboracensia - Part I, Surtees Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 361]

[6] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith omnia recia mea pro vulpibus et
piscibus capiendis. Item Aliciae matri meae annulum meum de auro
sanctificatum. Item Thomae fratri meo unum owche de auro optimum. Item
Patricio fratri meo xls". [Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I, Surtees
Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 362]

[7] Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol III, Harleian Society, Vol 52, London,
1904, p 894-5]

[8] 30 Oct 1381: Grant (commisimus) to William de Skipwyth, knight, of
the marriage of Thomas, son and heir of Alexander Surteys, deceased,
tenant in chief, a minor in the king's custody, paying therefor 20
marks at the Exchequer; if Thomas die a minor without heir of his
body, the grantee is to have the marriage of his sister Alice.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 45]

mhollick@mac.com

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av mhollick@mac.com » 17 jun 2007 02:26:40

On Jun 16, 8:51 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,

According to two visitation pedigrees [1,2], Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough [ca. 1350 - 1401] married an unnamed daughter of Sir
William Skipwith. That her name was Margaret and she was the widow of
Alexander Surtees is shown in an entry in the Patent Rolls for 1384
[3]. That her name was Margaret is also confirmed in the nuncupative
will of Robert Constable proved on 8 Jan 1401 [4].

So that seems perfectly straightforward, Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

The problem is, that Sir William Skipwith and Alice had another
daughter called Margaret, who married firstly Hugh de Cressy and
secondly Henry Vavasour of Hazlewood. That this daughter was called
Margaret and that she was was their daughter is shown in the will of
Henry Vavasour [proved Mar 1413], where he leaves gifts to John
Skipwith and Alice Skipwith and he names his wife Margaret as executor
[5]. In Margaret's will [6], [proved Aug 1416] she leaves gifts to
John Skipwith, her mother Alice and to her brothers Thomas and
Patrick. John, Thomas and Patrick are shown as sons of Sir William
Skipwith and Alice in pedigrees of the family [7].

So that seems also perfectly straightforward, Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

So unless Sir William Skipwith had two daughters named Margaret, which
I suppose is possible, but unlikely, one of these identifications is
incorrect. On balance, I'd say the Margaret Skipwith who married
Alexander Surtees and Robert Constable was not a daughter of William
Skipwith, but she does seem to have some Skipwith connection. When her
first husband died, leaving her with a son Thomas Surtees, aged 20
weeks, his marriage was given by the king to William Skipwith [8]

Does anyone have any comments or further evidence concerning the
identifications of these two Margarets?

Regards,

John
in KL

[1] Sir Robert Counstable, Knight m. .... doghter of William Skypwyth
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564, Harleian Society, Vol 16,
London, 1881, p 64]

[2] Sir Robert Constable m. ..... dau. of Sir William Skipwith
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 & 1612, Joseph Foster, London,
1875, p 178]

[3] 20 Jan 1384: Pardon, for 40s. paid to the king by Robert
Conestable of Flaynburgh to him and Margaret, late the wife of
Alexander Surtays, tenant in chief for intermarrying without licence.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 381]

[4] "Margaretae uxori suae" [Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II, Surtees
Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 264]

[5] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith unum equum nigrum. .. Item lego
Aliciae de Skipwith unum annulum de auro cum uno diamawnde. Residuum -
Margaretm uxori meae --- Executores - Margareta uxor."[Testamenta
Eboracensia - Part I, Surtees Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 361]

[6] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith omnia recia mea pro vulpibus et
piscibus capiendis. Item Aliciae matri meae annulum meum de auro
sanctificatum. Item Thomae fratri meo unum owche de auro optimum. Item
Patricio fratri meo xls". [Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I, Surtees
Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 362]

[7] Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol III, Harleian Society, Vol 52, London,
1904, p 894-5]

[8] 30 Oct 1381: Grant (commisimus) to William de Skipwyth, knight, of
the marriage of Thomas, son and heir of Alexander Surteys, deceased,
tenant in chief, a minor in the king's custody, paying therefor 20
marks at the Exchequer; if Thomas die a minor without heir of his
body, the grantee is to have the marriage of his sister Alice.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 45]

I have that the Margaret Skipwith wife of Robert Constable was the
sister of Sir William Skipwith who married Alice Hiltoft. They are
both children of Sir William Skipwith and Margaret Fitz Simon; and
granchildren of John Skipwith and Margaret de la Lynde (paternally)
and Sir Ralph Fitz Simon (maternally, wife unknown).

John Watson

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John Watson » 17 jun 2007 02:54:02

On Jun 17, 9:26 am, "mholl...@mac.com" <mholl...@mac.com> wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:51 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:



Dear all,

According to two visitation pedigrees [1,2], Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough [ca. 1350 - 1401] married an unnamed daughter of Sir
William Skipwith. That her name was Margaret and she was the widow of
Alexander Surtees is shown in an entry in the Patent Rolls for 1384
[3]. That her name was Margaret is also confirmed in the nuncupative
will of Robert Constable proved on 8 Jan 1401 [4].

So that seems perfectly straightforward, Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

The problem is, that Sir William Skipwith and Alice had another
daughter called Margaret, who married firstly Hugh de Cressy and
secondly Henry Vavasour of Hazlewood. That this daughter was called
Margaret and that she was was their daughter is shown in the will of
Henry Vavasour [proved Mar 1413], where he leaves gifts to John
Skipwith and Alice Skipwith and he names his wife Margaret as executor
[5]. In Margaret's will [6], [proved Aug 1416] she leaves gifts to
John Skipwith, her mother Alice and to her brothers Thomas and
Patrick. John, Thomas and Patrick are shown as sons of Sir William
Skipwith and Alice in pedigrees of the family [7].

So that seems also perfectly straightforward, Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

So unless Sir William Skipwith had two daughters named Margaret, which
I suppose is possible, but unlikely, one of these identifications is
incorrect. On balance, I'd say the Margaret Skipwith who married
Alexander Surtees and Robert Constable was not a daughter of William
Skipwith, but she does seem to have some Skipwith connection. When her
first husband died, leaving her with a son Thomas Surtees, aged 20
weeks, his marriage was given by the king to William Skipwith [8]

Does anyone have any comments or further evidence concerning the
identifications of these two Margarets?

Regards,

John
in KL

[1] Sir Robert Counstable, Knight m. .... doghter of William Skypwyth
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564, Harleian Society, Vol 16,
London, 1881, p 64]

[2] Sir Robert Constable m. ..... dau. of Sir William Skipwith
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 & 1612, Joseph Foster, London,
1875, p 178]

[3] 20 Jan 1384: Pardon, for 40s. paid to the king by Robert
Conestable of Flaynburgh to him and Margaret, late the wife of
Alexander Surtays, tenant in chief for intermarrying without licence.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 381]

[4] "Margaretae uxori suae" [Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II, Surtees
Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 264]

[5] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith unum equum nigrum. .. Item lego
Aliciae de Skipwith unum annulum de auro cum uno diamawnde. Residuum -
Margaretm uxori meae --- Executores - Margareta uxor."[Testamenta
Eboracensia - Part I, Surtees Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 361]

[6] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith omnia recia mea pro vulpibus et
piscibus capiendis. Item Aliciae matri meae annulum meum de auro
sanctificatum. Item Thomae fratri meo unum owche de auro optimum. Item
Patricio fratri meo xls". [Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I, Surtees
Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 362]

[7] Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol III, Harleian Society, Vol 52, London,
1904, p 894-5]

[8] 30 Oct 1381: Grant (commisimus) to William de Skipwyth, knight, of
the marriage of Thomas, son and heir of Alexander Surteys, deceased,
tenant in chief, a minor in the king's custody, paying therefor 20
marks at the Exchequer; if Thomas die a minor without heir of his
body, the grantee is to have the marriage of his sister Alice.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 45]

I have that the Margaret Skipwith wife of Robert Constable was the
sister of Sir William Skipwith who married Alice Hiltoft. They are
both children of Sir William Skipwith and Margaret Fitz Simon; and
granchildren of John Skipwith and Margaret de la Lynde (paternally)
and Sir Ralph Fitz Simon (maternally, wife unknown).

I had considered that, but the Sir William Skipwith who married
Margaret Fitz Simon died in 10 Ed III - about 1322, so it's unlikely
that his daughter would be marrying and having children in the 1380's.

The source for his death date is Kimber's Baronetage of England, which
is not all that reliable, but I don't have any other at the present
time.

Thanks,

John

mhollick@mac.com

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av mhollick@mac.com » 17 jun 2007 03:42:23

On Jun 16, 9:54 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:26 am, "mholl...@mac.com" <mholl...@mac.com> wrote:



On Jun 16, 8:51 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all,

According to two visitation pedigrees [1,2], Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough [ca. 1350 - 1401] married an unnamed daughter of Sir
William Skipwith. That her name was Margaret and she was the widow of
Alexander Surtees is shown in an entry in the Patent Rolls for 1384
[3]. That her name was Margaret is also confirmed in the nuncupative
will of Robert Constable proved on 8 Jan 1401 [4].

So that seems perfectly straightforward, Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

The problem is, that Sir William Skipwith and Alice had another
daughter called Margaret, who married firstly Hugh de Cressy and
secondly Henry Vavasour of Hazlewood. That this daughter was called
Margaret and that she was was their daughter is shown in the will of
Henry Vavasour [proved Mar 1413], where he leaves gifts to John
Skipwith and Alice Skipwith and he names his wife Margaret as executor
[5]. In Margaret's will [6], [proved Aug 1416] she leaves gifts to
John Skipwith, her mother Alice and to her brothers Thomas and
Patrick. John, Thomas and Patrick are shown as sons of Sir William
Skipwith and Alice in pedigrees of the family [7].

So that seems also perfectly straightforward, Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

So unless Sir William Skipwith had two daughters named Margaret, which
I suppose is possible, but unlikely, one of these identifications is
incorrect. On balance, I'd say the Margaret Skipwith who married
Alexander Surtees and Robert Constable was not a daughter of William
Skipwith, but she does seem to have some Skipwith connection. When her
first husband died, leaving her with a son Thomas Surtees, aged 20
weeks, his marriage was given by the king to William Skipwith [8]

Does anyone have any comments or further evidence concerning the
identifications of these two Margarets?

Regards,

John
in KL

[1] Sir Robert Counstable, Knight m. .... doghter of William Skypwyth
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564, Harleian Society, Vol 16,
London, 1881, p 64]

[2] Sir Robert Constable m. ..... dau. of Sir William Skipwith
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 & 1612, Joseph Foster, London,
1875, p 178]

[3] 20 Jan 1384: Pardon, for 40s. paid to the king by Robert
Conestable of Flaynburgh to him and Margaret, late the wife of
Alexander Surtays, tenant in chief for intermarrying without licence.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 381]

[4] "Margaretae uxori suae" [Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II, Surtees
Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 264]

[5] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith unum equum nigrum. .. Item lego
Aliciae de Skipwith unum annulum de auro cum uno diamawnde. Residuum -
Margaretm uxori meae --- Executores - Margareta uxor."[Testamenta
Eboracensia - Part I, Surtees Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 361]

[6] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith omnia recia mea pro vulpibus et
piscibus capiendis. Item Aliciae matri meae annulum meum de auro
sanctificatum. Item Thomae fratri meo unum owche de auro optimum. Item
Patricio fratri meo xls". [Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I, Surtees
Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 362]

[7] Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol III, Harleian Society, Vol 52, London,
1904, p 894-5]

[8] 30 Oct 1381: Grant (commisimus) to William de Skipwyth, knight, of
the marriage of Thomas, son and heir of Alexander Surteys, deceased,
tenant in chief, a minor in the king's custody, paying therefor 20
marks at the Exchequer; if Thomas die a minor without heir of his
body, the grantee is to have the marriage of his sister Alice.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 45]

I have that the Margaret Skipwith wife of Robert Constable was the
sister of Sir William Skipwith who married Alice Hiltoft. They are
both children of Sir William Skipwith and Margaret Fitz Simon; and
granchildren of John Skipwith and Margaret de la Lynde (paternally)
and Sir Ralph Fitz Simon (maternally, wife unknown).

I had considered that, but the Sir William Skipwith who married
Margaret Fitz Simon died in 10 Ed III - about 1322, so it's unlikely
that his daughter would be marrying and having children in the 1380's.

The source for his death date is Kimber's Baronetage of England, which
is not all that reliable, but I don't have any other at the present
time.

Thanks,

John

10 Edward III would 1337, no? He reigned 1327-1377? In any case,
John P. Ravilious is (IMHO) the guru for all things Yorkshire and I'm
sure I got this from him.

Martin

John Watson

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John Watson » 17 jun 2007 06:43:25

On Jun 17, 10:42 am, "mholl...@mac.com" <mholl...@mac.com> wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:54 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Jun 17, 9:26 am, "mholl...@mac.com" <mholl...@mac.com> wrote:

On Jun 16, 8:51 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all,

According to two visitation pedigrees [1,2], Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough [ca. 1350 - 1401] married an unnamed daughter of Sir
William Skipwith. That her name was Margaret and she was the widow of
Alexander Surtees is shown in an entry in the Patent Rolls for 1384
[3]. That her name was Margaret is also confirmed in the nuncupative
will of Robert Constable proved on 8 Jan 1401 [4].

So that seems perfectly straightforward, Sir Robert Constable of
Flamborough, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

The problem is, that Sir William Skipwith and Alice had another
daughter called Margaret, who married firstly Hugh de Cressy and
secondly Henry Vavasour of Hazlewood. That this daughter was called
Margaret and that she was was their daughter is shown in the will of
Henry Vavasour [proved Mar 1413], where he leaves gifts to John
Skipwith and Alice Skipwith and he names his wife Margaret as executor
[5]. In Margaret's will [6], [proved Aug 1416] she leaves gifts to
John Skipwith, her mother Alice and to her brothers Thomas and
Patrick. John, Thomas and Patrick are shown as sons of Sir William
Skipwith and Alice in pedigrees of the family [7].

So that seems also perfectly straightforward, Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood, married Margaret Skipwith, daughter of Sir William
Skipwith, of Ormesby, Lincolnshire, Justice of the Common Pleas [ -
ca. 1398] and his wife Alice Hiltoft.

So unless Sir William Skipwith had two daughters named Margaret, which
I suppose is possible, but unlikely, one of these identifications is
incorrect. On balance, I'd say the Margaret Skipwith who married
Alexander Surtees and Robert Constable was not a daughter of William
Skipwith, but she does seem to have some Skipwith connection. When her
first husband died, leaving her with a son Thomas Surtees, aged 20
weeks, his marriage was given by the king to William Skipwith [8]

Does anyone have any comments or further evidence concerning the
identifications of these two Margarets?

Regards,

John
in KL

[1] Sir Robert Counstable, Knight m. .... doghter of William Skypwyth
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564, Harleian Society, Vol 16,
London, 1881, p 64]

[2] Sir Robert Constable m. ..... dau. of Sir William Skipwith
[Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 & 1612, Joseph Foster, London,
1875, p 178]

[3] 20 Jan 1384: Pardon, for 40s. paid to the king by Robert
Conestable of Flaynburgh to him and Margaret, late the wife of
Alexander Surtays, tenant in chief for intermarrying without licence.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 381]

[4] "Margaretae uxori suae" [Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II, Surtees
Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 264]

[5] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith unum equum nigrum. .. Item lego
Aliciae de Skipwith unum annulum de auro cum uno diamawnde. Residuum -
Margaretm uxori meae --- Executores - Margareta uxor."[Testamenta
Eboracensia - Part I, Surtees Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 361]

[6] "Item lego Johanni de Skipwith omnia recia mea pro vulpibus et
piscibus capiendis. Item Aliciae matri meae annulum meum de auro
sanctificatum. Item Thomae fratri meo unum owche de auro optimum. Item
Patricio fratri meo xls". [Testamenta Eboracensia, Part I, Surtees
Society, Vol 4, Durham, 1835, p 362]

[7] Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Vol III, Harleian Society, Vol 52, London,
1904, p 894-5]

[8] 30 Oct 1381: Grant (commisimus) to William de Skipwyth, knight, of
the marriage of Thomas, son and heir of Alexander Surteys, deceased,
tenant in chief, a minor in the king's custody, paying therefor 20
marks at the Exchequer; if Thomas die a minor without heir of his
body, the grantee is to have the marriage of his sister Alice.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 2, p 45]

I have that the Margaret Skipwith wife of Robert Constable was the
sister of Sir William Skipwith who married Alice Hiltoft. They are
both children of Sir William Skipwith and Margaret Fitz Simon; and
granchildren of John Skipwith and Margaret de la Lynde (paternally)
and Sir Ralph Fitz Simon (maternally, wife unknown).

I had considered that, but the Sir William Skipwith who married
Margaret Fitz Simon died in 10 Ed III - about 1322, so it's unlikely
that his daughter would be marrying and having children in the 1380's.

The source for his death date is Kimber's Baronetage of England, which
is not all that reliable, but I don't have any other at the present
time.

Thanks,

John

10 Edward III would 1337, no? He reigned 1327-1377? In any case,
John P. Ravilious is (IMHO) the guru for all things Yorkshire and I'm
sure I got this from him.

Martin

Hi Martin,

Slip of the pen there, I meant 1337 - but the same objection to his
daughter having children in the 1380's still applies I think.

Regards,

John

John Watson

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John Watson » 19 jun 2007 00:49:15

On Jun 19, 7:09 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 06/16/07 22:45:42 Pacific Standard Time, WatsonJo...@gmail.com writes:
Slip of the pen there, I meant 1337 - but the same objection to his
daughter having children in the 1380's still applies I think.

There might be an unwarranted assumption there. I show Margaret Skipwith, wife of Sir Robert Constable with two children, Joan and Marmaduke. There may certainly have been more.

Joan married Robert Hilton and they had at least one child born *between* 1399 and 1404, Isabel Hilton

In looking through my notes, I see *no good authority* for a birth year for either child.

I also question your birthyear for Robert Constable of "about 1350". It seems significantly later than my own birthrange of 1316 to 1340.

Will Johnson

Hi Will,

About 1350 is only a guess. Unless he had a first wife, the date of
his marriage to Margaret Skipwith seems a bit late.

Robert Constable married Margaret Skipwith shortly after her first
husband, Alexander Surtees, died in 1380, although they only had a
pardon for marrying without licence in 1384. Robert died towards the
end of 1400 or the first week of 1401, since his will was proved 7 Jan
1401 and his son Marmaduke was of full age to inherit, meaning that he
must have been born in 1380. This might not be a "good authority" but
it's a good assumption.

Any ideas on Margaret's identity?

Regards,

John

John Watson

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John Watson » 20 jun 2007 01:27:50

On Jun 19, 8:14 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Thanks John. I've confirmed the entry from CPR which is herehttp://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrol ... ge0381.pdf

that it says what you say it says.

I agree that
A) if this lady is Margaret Skipwith, daughter of William Skipwith by his wife Margaret FitzSimon, that she must be already into her middle-age by now;
B) *if* she is the mother of Joan and Marmaduke Constable that they must have both been born sometime between 1380 and 1385;

This allows both Joan and Marmaduke to be even closer in age to their aleged spouses, Robert Hilton and Catherine Cumberworth respectively. Running this chronology up-and-down what I have it presents no problems elsewhere

Is there a contemporary source which states when Alexander Surtays died? Could they have been married for some time prior to the Pardon ?

Will Johnson

Hi Will,

Finally found my source for the birth date of Robert Constable of
Flamborough:-

"Sir Robert Constable was the eldest son of Sir Marmaduke Constable of
Flamborough in Yorkshire and succeeded his father in 1378 at which
time he was twenty five years of age." [The Controversy Between Sir
Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas,
London, 1832, p 339]

Source for death date of Alexander Surtees in 1380 is 'Parishes: Low
Dinsdale', A History of the County of Durham: Volume 3 (1928), pp.
217-22.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42624

Regards,

John

John P. Ravilious

Re: Two Margaret Skipwiths

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 jun 2007 01:12:28

Dear John, John, Will, et al.,

Working backward through the archives of late, I came across your
discussion concerning Margaret Skipwith, wife of Sir Robert Constable
of Flamborough.

Given the problem concerning multiple Margarets as discussed, I
have to date accepted as likely (given this issue, and the chronology
involved) the picture as painted by Adrian Channing in the SGM thread
<SKIPWITH, 1 of 2>, from 6 Jan 2000. This places Margaret, wife of 1)
Alexander Surtees and 2) Sir Robert Constable as daughter of Sir
William de Skipwith and a second wife, NN [his first and only known
wife being Margaret fitz Ralph by whom he was father of the next Sir
William de Skipwith, husband of Alice de Hiltoft).

The foregoing seems to be the most likely explanation, but is
hardly proved as yet. Would that I had something more concrete to add
to this excellent discussion.

Cheers,

John




On Jun 19, 8:27 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 19, 8:14 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Thanks John. I've confirmed the entry from CPR which is herehttp://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrol ... ge0381.pdf

that it says what you say it says.

I agree that
A) if this lady is Margaret Skipwith, daughter of William Skipwith by his wife Margaret FitzSimon, that she must be already into her middle-age by now;
B) *if* she is the mother of Joan and Marmaduke Constable that they must have both been born sometime between 1380 and 1385;

This allows both Joan and Marmaduke to be even closer in age to their aleged spouses, Robert Hilton and Catherine Cumberworth respectively. Running this chronology up-and-down what I have it presents no problems elsewhere

Is there a contemporary source which states when Alexander Surtays died? Could they have been married for some time prior to the Pardon ?

Will Johnson

Hi Will,

Finally found my source for the birth date of Robert Constable of
Flamborough:-

"Sir Robert Constable was the eldest son of Sir Marmaduke Constable of
Flamborough in Yorkshire and succeeded his father in 1378 at which
time he was twenty five years of age." [The Controversy Between Sir
Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas,
London, 1832, p 339]

Source for death date of Alexander Surtees in 1380 is 'Parishes: Low
Dinsdale', A History of the County of Durham: Volume 3 (1928), pp.
217-22.
URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=42624

Regards,

John

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