Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of
Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of
Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of
Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of
Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of
Gedaliah; son of
Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of
Yosef, (d. 1264); son of
Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of
Yaish, (d. 1196); son of
Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of
David; son of
Hizkaya; son of
David; son of
Zakkai; son of
Abraham; son of
Nathan; son of
David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of
Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of
Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of
Abbai, Prince; son of
Abdimi, Prince; son of
Nehemiah, Prince; son of
Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of
Haninai, Prince; son of
Shemaiah, Prince; son of
Yakov, Prince; son of
Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of
Guriya, Prince; son of
Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of
Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.
Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.
The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?
Any comments on this line? TAF?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
taf
Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
On Jun 16, 4:49 pm, "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommae...@cox.net>
wrote:
I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.
As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.
taf
wrote:
Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of
Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of
Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of
Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of
Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of
Gedaliah; son of
Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of
Yosef, (d. 1264); son of
Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of
Yaish, (d. 1196); son of
Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of
David; son of
Hizkaya; son of
David; son of
Zakkai; son of
Abraham; son of
Nathan; son of
David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of
Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of
Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of
Abbai, Prince; son of
Abdimi, Prince; son of
Nehemiah, Prince; son of
Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of
Haninai, Prince; son of
Shemaiah, Prince; son of
Yakov, Prince; son of
Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of
Guriya, Prince; son of
Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of
Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.
Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.
The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?
I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.
As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
On Jun 18, 7:47 am, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
I haven't looked into this either, but my memory is that Fadrique of
Haro's Jewish mistress was popularly known as "la paloma" (the dove)
and that her ancestry is unknown.
Peter Stewart
On Jun 16, 4:49 pm, "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommae...@cox.net
wrote:
Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of
Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of
Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of
Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of
Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of
Gedaliah; son of
Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of
Yosef, (d. 1264); son of
Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of
Yaish, (d. 1196); son of
Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of
David; son of
Hizkaya; son of
David; son of
Zakkai; son of
Abraham; son of
Nathan; son of
David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of
Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of
Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of
Abbai, Prince; son of
Abdimi, Prince; son of
Nehemiah, Prince; son of
Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of
Haninai, Prince; son of
Shemaiah, Prince; son of
Yakov, Prince; son of
Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of
Guriya, Prince; son of
Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of
Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.
Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.
The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?
I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.
As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.
I haven't looked into this either, but my memory is that Fadrique of
Haro's Jewish mistress was popularly known as "la paloma" (the dove)
and that her ancestry is unknown.
Peter Stewart
-
Hovite
Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad
They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.
-
taf
Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?
On Jun 19, 10:20 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 19, 10:20 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
It is not quite so simple as this, as this sets up a false dichotomy.
Proven and fictional are not antonyms, and not the only two options.
We don't know that all such lines are fictional. To know that we would
need the same type of evidence (which is lacking) necessary to show
them true. They are simply not supported by surviving evidence, and
while some of them can be more or less safely concluded likely to be
false, for some we have nothing on which to base even this. These must
simply be left to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.
In the Anglo Saxon case, I would put a different (and decreasing)
probability of accuracy on the pedigrees of Ine, Ecgbert and the
latter's immediate predecessors.
taf
just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad
They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.
On Jun 19, 10:20 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad
They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.
It is not quite so simple as this, as this sets up a false dichotomy.
Proven and fictional are not antonyms, and not the only two options.
We don't know that all such lines are fictional. To know that we would
need the same type of evidence (which is lacking) necessary to show
them true. They are simply not supported by surviving evidence, and
while some of them can be more or less safely concluded likely to be
false, for some we have nothing on which to base even this. These must
simply be left to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.
In the Anglo Saxon case, I would put a different (and decreasing)
probability of accuracy on the pedigrees of Ine, Ecgbert and the
latter's immediate predecessors.
taf