Any comments on this line? TAF?

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Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 17 jun 2007 00:49:20

Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of

Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of

Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of

Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of

Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of

Gedaliah; son of

Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of

Yosef, (d. 1264); son of

Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of

Yaish, (d. 1196); son of

Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of

David; son of

Hizkaya; son of

David; son of

Zakkai; son of

Abraham; son of

Nathan; son of

David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of

Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of

Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of

Abbai, Prince; son of

Abdimi, Prince; son of

Nehemiah, Prince; son of

Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of

Haninai, Prince; son of

Shemaiah, Prince; son of

Yakov, Prince; son of

Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of

Guriya, Prince; son of

Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of

Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.

Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.



The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?

Hovite

Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av Hovite » 17 jun 2007 13:43:45

Any documents to support that?

taf

Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av taf » 17 jun 2007 22:47:22

On Jun 16, 4:49 pm, "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommae...@cox.net>
wrote:
Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of

Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of

Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of

Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of

Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of

Gedaliah; son of

Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of

Yosef, (d. 1264); son of

Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of

Yaish, (d. 1196); son of

Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of

David; son of

Hizkaya; son of

David; son of

Zakkai; son of

Abraham; son of

Nathan; son of

David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of

Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of

Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of

Abbai, Prince; son of

Abdimi, Prince; son of

Nehemiah, Prince; son of

Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of

Haninai, Prince; son of

Shemaiah, Prince; son of

Yakov, Prince; son of

Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of

Guriya, Prince; son of

Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of

Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.

Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.

The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?


I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.

As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.

taf

Peter Stewart

Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jun 2007 00:55:14

On Jun 18, 7:47 am, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Jun 16, 4:49 pm, "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommae...@cox.net
wrote:





Fernando II/V of Aragon, (½ of 'the Gruesome Twosome'); son of

Juan II, king of Aragon, m. Juana; dt. of

Fadrique, (m. Mariana of Cordova); son of

Alfonso, (m. Juana de Mendoza); son of

Fadrique, (d. 1358), (brother of Enrique II of Castile), m. Paloma; dt. of

Gedaliah; son of

Shlomo Ha-Zeken, (d. 1299); son of

Yosef, (d. 1264); son of

Yahya ha-Nasi, (Don Yahya "El Negro", Lord of Aldeia dos Negros, Portugal),
(d. 1222); son of

Yaish, (d. 1196); son of

Hiyya al-Daudi, (d. 1154); son of

David; son of

Hizkaya; son of

David; son of

Zakkai; son of

Abraham; son of

Nathan; son of

David, (curiously a rabbi) - (WHY 'CURIOUSLY'? This line was LOADED with
rabbi'im); son of

Hazub, (Last Prince of the Davidic Dynasty mentioned in the medieval Jewish
chronicle, the _Seder Olam Zuta_, [the Smaller/Shorter Order,
{Chronology/Time-Line}, of the World]); son of

Pinkhas, Prince (Phinehas or Pinchus); son of

Abbai, Prince; son of

Abdimi, Prince; son of

Nehemiah, Prince; son of

Magis, Prince, (Magis, id. with Misas); son of

Haninai, Prince; son of

Shemaiah, Prince; son of

Yakov, Prince; son of

Sutra II, Prince, (Mar-Zutra); son of

Guriya, Prince; son of

Saadia, (Sa'adyah), Prince of Judah; son of

Sutra [I], (Mar-Zutra), "Rav", Prince of Judah, son of the 30th Exilarch,
Mar-Zutra II. Sutra I was the son of his father's second wife, and given
his father's name. He was born the day of his father's execution. He was
carried to Palestine. As an adult he was accepted as Nasi or
Prince/Patriarch, and founded a new dynasty of the Palestinian Nesi'im ca.
550 CE, thus ending the interregnum period following the deposition of
Gamaliel VI in 425 CE.

Mar-Zutra II, the 30th Exilarch, reigned 512-520, in succession to Ahija(h)
I. He reigned first under the regency of Pa'idah, the brother of his first
wife, (508-512), who was deposed by his father Haninai, who then became
associated with his son in his reign. The execution of Mar-Zutra II was
followed by a vacancy in the office of Exilarch from 520-550 CE. Mar-Zutra
II's first son was Ahunai, (Huna Mar II), who was Exilarch from 550-560,
being restored after the interregnum. From his line was descended a new
dynasty of Exilarchs through Hofnai, Exilarch 560-581, whose sons were
Haninai, (Exilarch 581-589), and Bostani (I), who founded the new dynasty.

The portion from the _Seder Olam Zuta_ is as accurate as can be determined.
Al-Daudi means 'the Davidic', and would be entirely appropriate to such
ancestry. Was there, in fact, such a Jewish background for the Trastamaras?

I cannot comment on the Davidic Exilarch line, other than to indicate
that I have always been uneasy about it - just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad, I have
to worry about long lines of names without contemporary support.

As to the Jewish ancestry of Ferdinand the great, I have seen this
precise connection suggested (through Fadrique) but I have never
looked into it at all. Paloma does seem an odd name for a daughter of
Gedaliah, but it easily could have been a nickname.

I haven't looked into this either, but my memory is that Fadrique of
Haro's Jewish mistress was popularly known as "la paloma" (the dove)
and that her ancestry is unknown.

Peter Stewart

Hovite

Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av Hovite » 19 jun 2007 18:20:26

just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad

They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.

taf

Re: Any comments on this line? TAF?

Legg inn av taf » 19 jun 2007 21:08:53

On Jun 19, 10:20 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad

They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.

On Jun 19, 10:20 am, Hovite <paulvhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
just as there are problems
with pedigrees tracing descents of modern rulers from Mohammad

They are like the Anglo-Saxon descents from Woden: fictional.

It is not quite so simple as this, as this sets up a false dichotomy.
Proven and fictional are not antonyms, and not the only two options.

We don't know that all such lines are fictional. To know that we would
need the same type of evidence (which is lacking) necessary to show
them true. They are simply not supported by surviving evidence, and
while some of them can be more or less safely concluded likely to be
false, for some we have nothing on which to base even this. These must
simply be left to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.

In the Anglo Saxon case, I would put a different (and decreasing)
probability of accuracy on the pedigrees of Ine, Ecgbert and the
latter's immediate predecessors.

taf

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