"Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbury
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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joseph cook
"Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbury
Looking over the volumes of "Yorkshire Archeology" and volumes
relating to the history of Methley, the following line seems very
probable but I don't see it documented in RPA or MCA, or anywhere
else.
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
relating to the history of Methley, the following line seems very
probable but I don't see it documented in RPA or MCA, or anywhere
else.
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 4:34 am, joseph cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
LG (1937), p 2376. Visitation of Yorkshire, Foster, (1875), pps
104-105. Banks, Baronies in Fee, Vol 1: 202. Brice Clagett, post to
SGM dated 29 Dec 2004, Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP
contradiction? http://www.methley-village.fsnet.co.uk/ ... _the_manor.
IPM dated 11 Jun 1425. J. R. Whitehead, 'Waterton, Robert (d. 1425)',
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/54421, accessed 24 Sept
2005]. R. Somerville, History of the duchy of Lancaster, 1265-1603
(1953). T. Walsingham, The St Albans chronicle, 1406-1420, ed. V. H.
Galbraith (1937). H. Ellis, ed., Original letters illustrative of
English history, 1st ser., 3 vols. (1824); 2nd ser., 4 vols. (1827);
3rd ser., 4 vols. (1846). RotP, vols. 3-4. J. W. Walker, 'The
Burghs of Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire and the Watertons of
Lincolnshire and Yorkshire', Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 30
(1930-31), 311-419. E. McLeod, Charles of Orléans, prince and poet
(1969). Rev. H Armstrong-Hall, The WATERTON`S of Methley, Waterton,
and Walton Hall, (1909).
Doug Smith
Looking over the volumes of "Yorkshire Archeology" and volumes
relating to the history of Methley, the following line seems very
probable but I don't see it documented in RPA or MCA, or anywhere
else.
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
LG (1937), p 2376. Visitation of Yorkshire, Foster, (1875), pps
104-105. Banks, Baronies in Fee, Vol 1: 202. Brice Clagett, post to
SGM dated 29 Dec 2004, Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP
contradiction? http://www.methley-village.fsnet.co.uk/ ... _the_manor.
IPM dated 11 Jun 1425. J. R. Whitehead, 'Waterton, Robert (d. 1425)',
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/54421, accessed 24 Sept
2005]. R. Somerville, History of the duchy of Lancaster, 1265-1603
(1953). T. Walsingham, The St Albans chronicle, 1406-1420, ed. V. H.
Galbraith (1937). H. Ellis, ed., Original letters illustrative of
English history, 1st ser., 3 vols. (1824); 2nd ser., 4 vols. (1827);
3rd ser., 4 vols. (1846). RotP, vols. 3-4. J. W. Walker, 'The
Burghs of Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire and the Watertons of
Lincolnshire and Yorkshire', Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 30
(1930-31), 311-419. E. McLeod, Charles of Orléans, prince and poet
(1969). Rev. H Armstrong-Hall, The WATERTON`S of Methley, Waterton,
and Walton Hall, (1909).
Doug Smith
-
joseph cook
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Doug Smith Said:
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
Thanks for those sources. In one of them, the "Lords of the Manor"
website, I see information that a certain Woodhall manor came through
the family of Cecily Fleming and then eventually was inherited by the
children of Joan/Cecily Welles. Would her descendants have inherited
this estate if it were not her mother?
Thanks
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 9:51 am, joseph cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of the sources on this family are contradictory. ODNB has him
married only three times with his son Sir Robert by Cecily and
daughter Joan/Cecilia by either Joan de Everingham or Cecily Fleming.
Given the chronology either woman could have been the mother but the
chronology with Cecily is tight. I am not really clear on the manor
part but Woodhall appears to have been part of Methley which the
Waterton's had some rights to already.
Sir Robert's (the younger) IPM names the daughters of his sisters as
heirs. Thus, he and Joan/Cecilia were most likely full brother and
sister. Unless, of course, there was a specific entailment allowing
half-blood relations to be heirs.
The Waterton's of Methley which looks at the family in some detail
says both Robert and Cecilia were children of Joan de Everingham
Woodhall in Methley did descend to Robert Dymoke however.
Sorry this is so muddled.
Doug Smith
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Doug Smith Said:
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
Thanks for those sources. In one of them, the "Lords of the Manor"
website, I see information that a certain Woodhall manor came through
the family of Cecily Fleming and then eventually was inherited by the
children of Joan/Cecily Welles. Would her descendants have inherited
this estate if it were not her mother?
Thanks
Some of the sources on this family are contradictory. ODNB has him
married only three times with his son Sir Robert by Cecily and
daughter Joan/Cecilia by either Joan de Everingham or Cecily Fleming.
Given the chronology either woman could have been the mother but the
chronology with Cecily is tight. I am not really clear on the manor
part but Woodhall appears to have been part of Methley which the
Waterton's had some rights to already.
Sir Robert's (the younger) IPM names the daughters of his sisters as
heirs. Thus, he and Joan/Cecilia were most likely full brother and
sister. Unless, of course, there was a specific entailment allowing
half-blood relations to be heirs.
The Waterton's of Methley which looks at the family in some detail
says both Robert and Cecilia were children of Joan de Everingham
Woodhall in Methley did descend to Robert Dymoke however.
Sorry this is so muddled.
Doug Smith
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 1:16 pm, "a...@mindspring.com" <a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Actually as far as Woodhall Methley goes John Waterton apparently
received the rights (by purchase?) in 1408 from the Master of the
Hospital of St Nicholas de Pontrefract. John traded the property to
his brother Robert in 1410 so it does not appear that it was and
inheritance of Cecily Fleming.
Doug Smith
On Jun 10, 9:51 am, joseph cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Doug Smith Said:
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
Thanks for those sources. In one of them, the "Lords of the Manor"
website, I see information that a certain Woodhall manor came through
the family of Cecily Fleming and then eventually was inherited by the
children of Joan/Cecily Welles. Would her descendants have inherited
this estate if it were not her mother?
Thanks
Some of the sources on this family are contradictory. ODNB has him
married only three times with his son Sir Robert by Cecily and
daughter Joan/Cecilia by either Joan de Everingham or Cecily Fleming.
Given the chronology either woman could have been the mother but the
chronology with Cecily is tight. I am not really clear on the manor
part but Woodhall appears to have been part of Methley which the
Waterton's had some rights to already.
Sir Robert's (the younger) IPM names the daughters of his sisters as
heirs. Thus, he and Joan/Cecilia were most likely full brother and
sister. Unless, of course, there was a specific entailment allowing
half-blood relations to be heirs.
The Waterton's of Methley which looks at the family in some detail
says both Robert and Cecilia were children of Joan de Everingham
Woodhall in Methley did descend to Robert Dymoke however.
Sorry this is so muddled.
Doug Smith
Actually as far as Woodhall Methley goes John Waterton apparently
received the rights (by purchase?) in 1408 from the Master of the
Hospital of St Nicholas de Pontrefract. John traded the property to
his brother Robert in 1410 so it does not appear that it was and
inheritance of Cecily Fleming.
Doug Smith
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 1:31 pm, "a...@mindspring.com" <a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
There are numerous posts in the archives here that discuss this
matter.
Doug Smith
On Jun 10, 1:16 pm, "a...@mindspring.com" <a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
On Jun 10, 9:51 am, joseph cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Doug Smith Said:
Sir Robert Waterton had four wives. I believe most sources give
daughter Joan by 2nd wife Joan de Everingham not by 3rd wife Cecily
Fleming. His first wife was Muriel Leeke and his fourth wife Margaret
Clarell.
See:
Thanks for those sources. In one of them, the "Lords of the Manor"
website, I see information that a certain Woodhall manor came through
the family of Cecily Fleming and then eventually was inherited by the
children of Joan/Cecily Welles. Would her descendants have inherited
this estate if it were not her mother?
Thanks
Some of the sources on this family are contradictory. ODNB has him
married only three times with his son Sir Robert by Cecily and
daughter Joan/Cecilia by either Joan de Everingham or Cecily Fleming.
Given the chronology either woman could have been the mother but the
chronology with Cecily is tight. I am not really clear on the manor
part but Woodhall appears to have been part of Methley which the
Waterton's had some rights to already.
Sir Robert's (the younger) IPM names the daughters of his sisters as
heirs. Thus, he and Joan/Cecilia were most likely full brother and
sister. Unless, of course, there was a specific entailment allowing
half-blood relations to be heirs.
The Waterton's of Methley which looks at the family in some detail
says both Robert and Cecilia were children of Joan de Everingham
Woodhall in Methley did descend to Robert Dymoke however.
Sorry this is so muddled.
Doug Smith
Actually as far as Woodhall Methley goes John Waterton apparently
received the rights (by purchase?) in 1408 from the Master of the
Hospital of St Nicholas de Pontrefract. John traded the property to
his brother Robert in 1410 so it does not appear that it was and
inheritance of Cecily Fleming.
Doug Smith
There are numerous posts in the archives here that discuss this
matter.
Doug Smith
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 4:34 am, joseph cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Another comment:
Sir Robert Fleming married Janet Douglas bef 23 Jul 1451 and died in
1492/3.
If Cecily Fleming was married abt 1407 it seems unlikely that she was
a daughter of this marriage. Her father Robert Fleming appears to be
a different Robert.
Doug Smith
Looking over the volumes of "Yorkshire Archeology" and volumes
relating to the history of Methley, the following line seems very
probable but I don't see it documented in RPA or MCA, or anywhere
else.
Has this lined been disproved?
1. King Robert II of Scotland b.1316, grandson of Robert "the Bruce".
2. Robert Stewart b.say 1340 m. Muriel Keith
3. Elizabeth Stewart m. Malcolm Fleming
4. Robert Fleming m. Janet Douglas
5. Cecily Fleming m. Robert Waterton
6. Joan/Cecily Waterton m. Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles
I believe James Cudworth and John West Royal Gateways are also
descendants (and surely others)
Thanks..
Another comment:
Sir Robert Fleming married Janet Douglas bef 23 Jul 1451 and died in
1492/3.
If Cecily Fleming was married abt 1407 it seems unlikely that she was
a daughter of this marriage. Her father Robert Fleming appears to be
a different Robert.
Doug Smith
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur
On Jun 10, 11:14 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Will
Not a single source but from the series of discussions in the
archives here. I believe that conclusion came from Brice Claggett.
The principal point was that it was the wrong family and that the
descent could not hold.
Doug Smith
Doug what is the source that Cecily Fleming married Robert Waterton "about 1407" as you stated or implied in your last message.
By the way, I agree that in the original posting she is put in the wrong family.
Her father was a Robert but that Robert Fleming of Woodhall and Methley, brother of Richard Fleming who was Bishop of Lincoln 1420
So this Cecily should be a few generations earlier.
Will Johnson
Hi Will
Not a single source but from the series of discussions in the
archives here. I believe that conclusion came from Brice Claggett.
The principal point was that it was the wrong family and that the
descent could not hold.
Doug Smith