Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

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Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jun 2007 18:14:51

Dear newsgroup,

Quoting from Burke's Peerage, 107th edition, p. 4078:

Henry de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Warwick, so cr. between July and Dec 1088  and granted lands which up till two years previously had belonged to a Saxon Thane, Thurkill or Turchil of Arden (an ancestor of William Shakespeare0; b. c 1048; granted feudal Ldship of Gower, S Wales, by Henry I sometime between 1106 and 1116, m. Margaret (d in or after 1156), dau of Geoffrey, Count de Perche, and d. most probably 20 June 1119, having had, with two daus:

       1b    Roger, 2nd earl
       2b    Robert de Neuborg; inherited his f's Norman lands, Ch  Justiciar Normandy; m. Godeheut,   dau of Ralph de Teoni/Conches, nad had, with other sons:
               
                1c  Henry de Neuborg
       3b    Rotrou: Bp Evreux, Archbp Rouen, Ch Justiciar and Steward Normandy
       4b    Geoffrey
       5b    Henry

The 1st Earl of Warwick's est s,

      Roger de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Warwick

************************

Quoting from Complete Peerage   XII/2:357-60

He [Henry de Beaumont] married Margaret, daughter of Geoffrey, Count of Perche, by  Beatrice, daughter of Hilduin, Count of Montdidier and Roucy.  He died (probably 20 June) 1119 and was buried at Preaux.  His widow, who enjoyed a high reputation forpiety and virtue, in 1125 witnessed the foundation charter of the Hermitage of Notre-Dame-du-Desert by Robert, Earl Leicester.  She was a benefactor of Kenilworth Priory and the Knights Templars, and consented to a gift by her son Robert to the Abbey of le Bec. She was living in 1156

***********************


There appear to be two Agnes de Beaumont, one the daughter of Henry de Beaumont and one the daughter of Roger de Beaumont.

Regards,
Jim Malone





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Peter Stewart

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 jun 2007 23:18:04

<jimpup@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2869.1180890922.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear newsgroup,

Quoting from Burke's Peerage, 107th edition, p. 4078:

Henry de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Warwick, so cr. between July and
Dec 1088 and granted lands which up till two years previously had
belonged to a Saxon Thane, Thurkill or Turchil of Arden (an
ancestor of William Shakespeare0; b. c 1048; granted feudal
Ldship of Gower, S Wales, by Henry I sometime between 1106 and
1116, m. Margaret (d in or after 1156), dau of Geoffrey, Count de
Perche, and d. most probably 20 June 1119, having had, with two
daus:

1b Roger, 2nd earl
2b Robert de Neuborg; inherited his f's Norman lands, Ch Justiciar
Normandy; m. Godeheut, dau of Ralph de Teoni/Conches, nad had,
with other sons:

1c Henry de Neuborg
3b Rotrou: Bp Evreux, Archbp Rouen, Ch Justiciar and Steward
Normandy
4b Geoffrey
5b Henry

The 1st Earl of Warwick's est s,

Roger de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Warwick

************************

Quoting from Complete Peerage XII/2:357-60

He [Henry de Beaumont] married Margaret, daughter of Geoffrey,
Count of Perche, by Beatrice, daughter of Hilduin, Count of
Montdidier and Roucy. He died (probably 20 June) 1119 and was
buried at Preaux. His widow, who enjoyed a high reputation for piety
and virtue, in 1125 witnessed the foundation charter of the
Hermitage of Notre-Dame-du-Desert by Robert, Earl Leicester. She
was a benefactor of Kenilworth Priory and the Knights Templars, and
consented to a gift by her son Robert to the Abbey of le Bec. She was
living in 1156

***********************

There appear to be two Agnes de Beaumont, one the daughter of
Henry de Beaumont and one the daughter of Roger de Beaumont.

From what does this appear? There is no mention in your quotations of an
Agnes daughter of Earl Henry, just two unnamed daughters - so if this is the
point of your post (that otherwise also does not appear, at least to me) you
seem to have omitted the specific information that you are relying on.

Peter Stewart





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Gjest

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 jun 2007 02:23:17

Dear newsgroup,


Several listings in rootsweb.com list Agnes de Beaumont born abt 1108, married to Geoffrey de Clinton, as daughter of Henry de Beaumont and Margaret de Perche.   I am seeking to ascertain if there are sources to back this up before I go there in my database.

The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources. 
     http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm

Henry and Agnes had a daughter named Lasceline de Clinton.

Thnaks,
Jim Malone

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 5:18 pm
Subject: Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II




jimpup@aol.com> wrote in message
ews:mailman.2869.1180890922.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear newsgroup,

Quoting from Burke's Peerage, 107th edition, p. 4078:

Henry de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Warwick, so cr. between July and
Dec 1088 and granted lands which up till two years previously had
belonged to a Saxon Thane, Thurkill or Turchil of Arden (an
ancestor of William Shakespeare0; b. c 1048; granted feudal
Ldship of Gower, S Wales, by Henry I sometime between 1106 and
1116, m. Margaret (d in or after 1156), dau of Geoffrey, Count de
Perche, and d. most probably 20 June 1119, having had, with two
daus:

1b Roger, 2nd earl
2b Robert de Neuborg; inherited his f's Norman lands, Ch Justiciar
Normandy; m. Godeheut, dau of Ralph de Teoni/Conches, nad had,
with other sons:

1c Henry de Neuborg
3b Rotrou: Bp Evreux, Archbp Rouen, Ch Justiciar and Steward
Normandy
4b Geoffrey
5b Henry

The 1st Earl of Warwick's est s,

Roger de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Warwick

************************

Quoting from Complete Peerage XII/2:357-60

He [Henry de Beaumont] married Margaret, daughter of Geoffrey,
Count of Perche, by Beatrice, daughter of Hilduin, Count of
Montdidier and Roucy. He died (probably 20 June) 1119 and was
buried at Preaux. His widow, who enjoyed a high reputation for piety
and virtue, in 1125 witnessed the foundation charter of the
Hermitage of Notre-Dame-du-Desert by Robert, Earl Leicester. She
was a benefactor of Kenilworth Priory and the Knights Templars, and
consented to a gift by her son Robert to the Abbey of le Bec. She was
living in 1156

***********************

There appear to be two Agnes de Beaumont, one the daughter of
Henry de Beaumont and one the daughter of Roger de Beaumont.
From what does this appear? There is no mention in your quotations of an
gnes daughter of Earl Henry, just two unnamed daughters - so if this is the

oint of your post (that otherwise also does not appear, at least to me) you
eem to have omitted the specific information that you are relying on.
Peter Stewart


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Peter Stewart

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 jun 2007 04:54:31

<jimpup@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2878.1180920261.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear newsgroup,

Several listings in rootsweb.com list Agnes de Beaumont born abt 1108,
married to Geoffrey de Clinton, as daughter of Henry de Beaumont and
Margaret de Perche. I am seeking to ascertain if there are sources to back
this up before I go there in my database.

There cannot be sources to back this up, because it is false. As posted
before, Geoffrey de Clinton's wife Agnes was the daughter of Earl Roger, son
of Henry and Margaret, and this is a matter of record not of guesswork.

The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources.
http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm

Henry and Agnes had a daughter named Lasceline de Clinton.

You mean Geoffrey and Agnes. That she was daughter of Roger, not Henry, is
proved by the former's charter, "Rogerus comes Warr'...Sciatis me dedisse
Agnetem filiam meam in uxorem Gaufrido camerario". This was first printed by
JH Round in 'A Great Marriage Settlement', _The Ancestor_ 11 (1904) on p.
153, and it is amongst the documents of the Newburgh fief in _The Beauchamp
Cartulary Charters 1100-1268_ edited by Emma Mason (London, 1980).

Peter Stewart

Louise Staley

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 04 jun 2007 04:57:10

This has been discussed on SGM before. Searching the archives at
http://tinyurl.com/2gqkke will help with your query.

Two useful sources (CP and ONDB) are mentioned in the following thread.

http://tinyurl.com/2d7hvs

However, for a fuller discussion of some of the issues surrounding the
marriage, Chris Phillips offered a detailed discussion of some of the
sources cited in ODNB and David Crouch's paper Geoffrey de Clinton and
Roger, Earl of Warwick: New men and magnates in the reign of Henry I'
[Bull. of the Inst. of Hist. Res. vol. 55 (1982), pp. 113-124]

http://tinyurl.com/2w47h4

Louise

jimpup@aol.com wrote:
Dear newsgroup,

Several listings in rootsweb.com list Agnes de Beaumont born abt 1108,
married to Geoffrey de Clinton, as daughter of Henry de Beaumont
and Margaret de Perche. I am seeking to ascertain if there are
sources to back this up before I go there in my database.

The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources.
http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm

Henry and Agnes had a daughter named Lasceline de Clinton.

Thnaks,
Jim Malone

Peter Stewart

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 jun 2007 10:13:29

Thanks Louise. Two points should be added to these earlier discussions:

First, the charter of Earl Roger states that he gave his daughter Agnes in
marriage to Geoffrey de Clinton "consilio regis et episcopi Wyntonensis et
com' Warr' et Roberti fratris mei" (on the advice of the king, the bishop of
Winchester, earl Warenne [?] and my brother Robert). Round noted that the
ocntraction might stand for the countess of Warwick, meaning Roger's wife or
mother, but since his father- or brother-in-law (depending on the unknown
date) William, 2nd or 3rd earl of Warenne (or Surrey) was the first witness
on his behalf it would seem that this is the likeliest solution.

Secondly, there is no compelling reason to wonder if Agnes might have been
Roger's daughter by an unrecorded wife prior to his marriage with Gundrara
de Warenne: if the latter was born ca 1120, which causes no difficulty, she
could have given birth to Agnes by ca 1136 - again, this gives rise to no
difficulty for the girl's betrothal in late 1137 or 1138: Roger's cousin
Waleran, count of Meulan was betrothed at Easter 1136 to King Stephen's
infant daughter Matilda, who was born in 1133 or 1134.

Peter Stewart



"Louise Staley" <caramut@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:q4M8i.8537$wH4.3020@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
This has been discussed on SGM before. Searching the archives at
http://tinyurl.com/2gqkke will help with your query.

Two useful sources (CP and ONDB) are mentioned in the following thread.

http://tinyurl.com/2d7hvs

However, for a fuller discussion of some of the issues surrounding the
marriage, Chris Phillips offered a detailed discussion of some of the
sources cited in ODNB and David Crouch's paper Geoffrey de Clinton and
Roger, Earl of Warwick: New men and magnates in the reign of Henry I'
[Bull. of the Inst. of Hist. Res. vol. 55 (1982), pp. 113-124]

http://tinyurl.com/2w47h4

Louise

jimpup@aol.com wrote:
Dear newsgroup,

Several listings in rootsweb.com list Agnes de Beaumont born abt 1108,
married to Geoffrey de Clinton, as daughter of Henry de Beaumont
and Margaret de Perche. I am seeking to ascertain if there are
sources to back this up before I go there in my database.

The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources.
http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm

Henry and Agnes had a daughter named Lasceline de Clinton.

Thnaks,
Jim Malone

Gjest

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 jun 2007 21:02:07

On 4 Jun., 04:54, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
jim...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.2878.1180920261.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear newsgroup,

Several listings in rootsweb.com list Agnes de Beaumont born abt 1108,
married to Geoffrey de Clinton, as daughter of Henry de Beaumont and
Margaret de Perche. I am seeking to ascertain if there are sources to back
this up before I go there in my database.

There cannot be sources to back this up, because it is false. As posted
before, Geoffrey de Clinton's wife Agnes was the daughter of Earl Roger, son
of Henry and Margaret, and this is a matter of record not of guesswork.

The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources.
http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm

Henry and Agnes had a daughter named Lasceline de Clinton.

You mean Geoffrey and Agnes. That she was daughter of Roger, not Henry, is
proved by the former's charter, "Rogerus comes Warr'...Sciatis me dedisse
Agnetem filiam meam in uxorem Gaufrido camerario". This was first printed by
JH Round in 'A Great Marriage Settlement', _The Ancestor_ 11 (1904) on p.
153, and it is amongst the documents of the Newburgh fief in _The Beauchamp
Cartulary Charters 1100-1268_ edited by Emma Mason (London, 1980).

Peter Stewart

FWIW, Keats-Rohan has this to say (Domesday Descendants):

Geoffrey II ("Gaufrid") de Clinton: son of Geoffrey I de Clinton and
Lescelina; married Agnes, daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick; father
of Henry and William.

Henry, Earl of Warwick ("Comes de Warewick"): younger son of Roger,
count of Meulan, who take over his father's Warwickshire estates as
Earl of Warwick c1088 (Sanders, 93; CP vii, 523); he died in 1119,
when he was suceeded by his son Roger. By his wife Margaret of Perche
(d 1156) he was father also of Robert de Neufbourg (d 1159), Rotrou,
Bishop of Evreux, Geoffrey and Henry de Neufbourg.

Roger, Earl of Warwick: son and heir of Henry, earl of Warwick; died
in 1153, leaving a son and heir William by his wife Gundrada de
Warenne. Father also of his eventual successor Waleran, Gundreda wife
of Earl Hugh Bigod, Agnes wife of Geoffrey de Clinton, and Margaret.

I wonder what is Burke's source in attributing two daughters to Earl
Henry and Margaret of Perche?

MA-R

Peter Stewart

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 jun 2007 04:43:28

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1180987327.309014.125290@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

I wonder what is Burke's source in attributing two daughters to Earl
Henry and Margaret of Perche?

The source for this is presumably Robert de Torigni, in his additional book
of the 'Gesta Normannorum ducum' of William of Jumièges, mentioning that
Henry and Margaret had, apart from Earl Roger, "plures alios et duas filias"
(many other sons and two daughters). However, Robert de Torigni was not
always well informed about the family. Orderic says only that Henry and
Margaret had children of both sexes. I have not come across further evidence
about the daughters, or names attached to them.

Peter Stewart

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