de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

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John P. Ravilious

de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 30 mai 2007 04:51:43

Tuesday, 29 May 2007


Dear Michael, Tim, Will, et al.,

Looking back at the right mess involving William de Fraixneto
(de Fresney), Duncan de Lasceles and Wix priory, I finally looked at
the
text in Monasticon Anglicanum concerning the charters given there
[1].

There is a veritable minefield here, but there are a few
chronological
anchors. The grant by Walter de Windlesores (or de Windsor) of the
church
of Swinland [Mon. Angl. IV:515, Num. II] can be dated 1146x1174, as
"W. ... Norwicensi episcopo" named in the charter can be identified
as
William de Turbe, bishop during that period. We have a good fix on
dates
for Duncan de Lascelles and his wife Christiana: in addition to
which,
Idonea, prioress of Wix, named in their charter, made a charter [Mon.
Angl. IV:515, Num. III] which can be dated 1199x1226, as it was
witnessed
by "Godefrido de Luvein", seneschal of the honour of Eye and husband
of
Alice de Hastings, heiress of Little Easton.

I suggest that in fact Christiana, mother of William de Fresney,
was
in fact identical to the otherwise unnamed wife of Waldeve fitz
Gospatric
of of Bolton and Bassenthwaite, Cumbs. This would explain the
connection
between Wix priory, William de Fresney, and Duncan de Lascelles and
his
wife Christiana (daughter of Waldeve).



Walter de Windlesores (Windsor) = Christiana
: granted the church of Swinland, Suffolk I [Mon. Angl.IV:513,
to Wix priory, 1146x1174 [Mon. Angl. IV:515, I note (d)]
Num. II; William de Turbe, Bp of Norwich] I
______________________I
I
Ralph de Windlesores
[aka Ralph de Hastings ?
Mon. Angl. IV:515, Num. III]
I
I
1) NN de Fresney = Christiana = 2) Waldeve fitz Gospatric
I I of Bolton and Bassenthwaite,
_________I ____I________________ Cumbs.
I I I
William de Fresney Christiana Galiena
= Duncan de = Roger de Moubray
Lascelles


If this conjecture can be proven, I think we will find the
earlier
Walter de Windlesores above will be found to be the grandson
(possibly
great-grandson) of Walter the Deacon, Domesday tenant of Little
Easton
and ancestor of the Hastings families of Little Easton, and
elsewhere.

Your observations, comment and criticism on the above are
appreciated,
as always.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] See Monasticon Anglicanum, Vol. IV at

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/MatrixBoo ... 01%20Wykes).pdf

Gjest

Re: de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2007 10:59:16

On May 30, 4:51 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Tuesday, 29 May 2007

(snip)
I suggest that in fact Christiana, mother of William de Fresney,
was
in fact identical to the otherwise unnamed wife of Waldeve fitz
Gospatric
of of Bolton and Bassenthwaite, Cumbs. This would explain the
connection
between Wix priory, William de Fresney, and Duncan de Lascelles and
his
wife Christiana (daughter of Waldeve).

Walter de Windlesores (Windsor) = Christiana
: granted the church of Swinland, Suffolk I [Mon. Angl.IV:513,
to Wix priory, 1146x1174 [Mon. Angl. IV:515, I note (d)]
Num. II; William de Turbe, Bp of Norwich] I
______________________I
I
Ralph de Windlesores
[aka Ralph de Hastings ?
Mon. Angl. IV:515, Num. III]
I
I
1) NN de Fresney = Christiana = 2) Waldeve fitz Gospatric
I I of Bolton and Bassenthwaite,
_________I ____I________________ Cumbs.
I I I
William de Fresney Christiana Galiena
= Duncan de = Roger de Moubray
Lascelles



Dear John

Very interesting post - I particularly like the suggestion that there
were two Christianas, whereas I had stupidly assumed only one. DD has
some small details about what seems to be this William de Fresney - if
I recall correctly, it suggests he was son of William and Christiana;
I also seem to recall, however, some particulars from VCH Bucks
(Farnham?) that indicate Christiana de Lascelles was an heiress of the
Windsors - this is unlikely in your scenario, given that William de
Fresney left two married daughters. I will look at my notes when I
get the chance, and post further.

Best wishes, Michael

Gjest

Re: de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2007 21:08:13

On 30 Mai, 10:59, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On May 30, 4:51 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

Tuesday, 29 May 2007

(snip)





I suggest that in fact Christiana, mother of William de Fresney,
was
in fact identical to the otherwise unnamed wife of Waldeve fitz
Gospatric
of of Bolton and Bassenthwaite, Cumbs. This would explain the
connection
between Wix priory, William de Fresney, and Duncan de Lascelles and
his
wife Christiana (daughter of Waldeve).

Walter de Windlesores (Windsor) = Christiana
: granted the church of Swinland, Suffolk I [Mon. Angl.IV:513,
to Wix priory, 1146x1174 [Mon. Angl. IV:515, I note (d)]
Num. II; William de Turbe, Bp of Norwich] I
______________________I
I
Ralph de Windlesores
[aka Ralph de Hastings ?
Mon. Angl. IV:515, Num. III]
I
I
1) NN de Fresney = Christiana = 2) Waldeve fitz Gospatric
I I of Bolton and Bassenthwaite,
_________I ____I________________ Cumbs.
I I I
William de Fresney Christiana Galiena
= Duncan de = Roger de Moubray
Lascelles

Dear John

Very interesting post - I particularly like the suggestion that there
were two Christianas, whereas I had stupidly assumed only one. DD has
some small details about what seems to be this William de Fresney - if
I recall correctly, it suggests he was son of William and Christiana;
I also seem to recall, however, some particulars from VCH Bucks
(Farnham?) that indicate Christiana de Lascelles was an heiress of the
Windsors - this is unlikely in your scenario, given that William de
Fresney left two married daughters. I will look at my notes when I
get the chance, and post further.

Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p 467, sub William de Fraxineto)
states that one of this name was Sheriff of Suffolk in 1157, and
speculates that he could have been the "son of William de Fresnay and
Christiana, who with their sons William and Roger, were benefactors of
Thetford, to which they gave land at Little Bealings (BL Lansdowne 229
fol 147v)".

1157 would appear to be too early for our William to have been active
(his daughter Idonea ff 1239; his grandson-in-law died in 1282, and
his great grandson in 1308), but the reference to Thetford Priory is
certainly interesting.

DD adds of Walter de Windsor (Windresor), that he was the "younger son
of William I of Windsor (and) held one fee at Swinelond of his kinsman
Robert de Hastings of Little Easton in 1166; his wife was probably
Christina de Wiham, who occurs in the Carta of William de Mountfichet
in 1166; he died before 1184, leaving a minor son Walter II - Walter
(II)susequently became heir to half the barony of Windsor, with his
cousin William III, by a settlement reached in 1198 (and) died in 1203
leaving as heirs his two sisters, Christiana (d before Michaelmas
1206), wife of Durand (sic) de Lacelles, and Gunnor (d c 1205/6) wife
of Hugh de Hosdeng.

Expect this hinders rather than helps - sorry!

Best wishes, Michael



MA-R

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