Please Read!!! ---> Baron William Cheever (Chievre)-Creveceo

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Please Read!!! ---> Baron William Cheever (Chievre)-Creveceo

Legg inn av The Wanderer » 25 mai 2007 00:36:48

Mye Goodye Cosynes,

A Millennial Code is Broken ???
======================
I think I might have bridged a major gap in our trees. I don't believe this
has ever been solved (or somewhat) until now. My interest is in the surname
of Markham, and the top of our tree. I will keep this fairly brief, but I
hope one can realize the significance of this information.

The top of our Markham is quite wrong in many ways. Informations have been
made '''to fit''' over time. But there are many pointers. I decided that
since Sir Alexander de (Cheverchort) Marcham must have been a real person
since his arms are recorded with the Heralds, but he seems to be out of
place. Now I know why. I also decided that our Lord William, Fulk, Turold,
maybe even Roger, and maybe, maybe not Claron, were actually really there,
but I found a whole set of new Fulks and Turolds just sitting right there
hiding right inbetween (draw a straight line between Tickhill and Worksop)
Tickhill and Worksop, in a place called Carlton, or Carlton-in-Lindrick.
Nearly every single town in this entire area from Tickhill to Worksop to
Retford is going hold many many many of our ancestors, and the beginning of
surnames, etc. !!!

I decided to start going into the history of every single town in this area,
and looking into the history of every single person mentioned that I could.
Now guess who's in Carlton-in-Lindrick??? I started looking into these
pin-prick places, since I found out that there is a place in Yorkshire also
called Lisors, and that whilst this might have been the home of the Fulk and
Turold Lizours, the Domesday Book was probably refering to the Yorkshire
region, and not the Lisieux in France or Normandy. Although they are pritty
much one and the same thing except two clearly different places. Fulk and
Turold would have named this spot from Lizours in France, but the Domesday
Book is not necessarily refering to Normandy, since it is all about land in
England and so on.
===========================
!!! Here is the SECRET of William, Lord of Marckham !!!
===========================
I started to analyse every single word in 'Markham Memorials' Chapter I,
what was said, and most importantly what was not said, and the exact wording
of every single sentence. I came to the conclusion that there must be a
relationship to another family, and looked into this one. I realized that
the wording of William being "Lord of Markham", did not even mean he was
"FROM" Markham, or even ever lived there, or even anything close to that.
What if there was another Lord elsewhere named '''Lord William''', and that
'MM' had some truth in it, because the Markham authors of the past never
actually let go of certain names, I realized that there might still be some
truth in the names being given to us, although they just couldn't put there
finger on the right button, but they knew they were close. Check this out!!!
===========================
William was never given as William Markham!!!
[HOTMF] William, Lord of Markham.
[MM] William, Lord of East Markham.
===========================
I have now found the people to whom we are related, some of them are:
===========================
William Cheever (or Chievre), Baron (Lord or Baron in Devonshire).
[[[ !!! He was also LORD/BARON OF MARCKHAM !!! ]]]
Very close relatives are:
Ralph de Cheverchort.
Fulk de Cheverchort.
Turold de Cheverchort.
Alexander Cheverchort.
===========================
Not only do we have our Baron or Lord of Markham, if this is refering to OUR
(?) Marcham in Notts, it better, or I'll most spiffed, but Fulk and Turold
Cheverchort were living there, very separate people to Fulk and Turold
Lizours, also the Ralph who just keeps on coming into all my own searches.

Did you see who is there ??? That's right, finally, old Alexander de
Cheverchort !!! Alexander de Cheverchort, now living in Marcham, he would
have inherited estates there, as we will see, and he (or his son Alexander,
or both!) must have been the Castellan of Nottingham Castle, and he would
have been from Marcham, and recorded as so, since that is where he was
living !!! We should probably call him Sir Alexander de Cheverchort de
Marcham. That is him alright, he is the son of a major humungous Baron
William de Cheever, of Devon, his residence in Marcham, and he is rightfully
the Castellan of Nottingham Castle.

Rightfully as 'MM' mentioned only once, the Neumarch (NovoForo) line comes
in quite well, as does Furnival, Staveley, Latimer, etc., you name it.
===========================
Variations: Chevrolcourtor Caprecuria, Chevercourt, Clivercher or Cliviger.
===========================
<<< Carlton in Lindrick: Carlton-in-Lindrick parish comprises the two
townships and constablewicks of Carlton-in-Lindrick (sometimes called South
Carlton) and Kingston-in-Carlton, pleasantly situated on the road betwixt
Tickhill and Worksop, 4 miles north of the latter. In Saxon times it was of
sufficient consequence to have six resident thanes, each having a hall or
manor, but these were all possessed by Roger de Busli at the Norman
Conquest. The family of Chevercourt held it under him, but their heirs
failing, it was divided between the Latimers and the Fitzhughs, from whom it
passed to the Dacres, Molyneux, Talors and Cliftons. >>>
===========================
Nearly EVERY single town in and around the triangle of
Tickhill-Retford-Tuxford, you are going to be related closely in some way to
nearly every big name in that area. The above paragraph is just one item I
have, but this is clearly refering to one specific point, and a very
important one, that the lands got further divided, but obviously the name of
Markham isn't mentioned there yet, because no-one has ever known that the
Cheverchorts are also going under the name of Marcham!!!

Sir Alexander will be a son or grandson (Not parent!) of this Baron William,
and Fulk, Turold and Ralph, will be in the region of sons. This will
probably connect to the Hamo de Crevequer lines, Ralph de Pemeraii lines and
so on.
===========================
<<< The Witnesses were Gilbert the Presbyter, Richard the Presbyter, William
the Presbyter, Fulco de Lasoriis, Thoraldus his brother, Ernold de Bulli,
Godefr. the Steward, or Sewer (Dapifer), Turold de Cheverchort, Claron, Raph
Novifori, Pagan, Gladicus, Robert Dispensator, W. de Drincort. >>>
===========================
From the above, we can see that Turold de Cheverchort is clearly not the
same person as Fulc (Fulk) de Lasoriis, but I have several other sources

that do confirm Fulco and Turold DE LISORIIS being brothers, so that part is
correct, they just are NOT the same two people as Fulk and Turold
Cheverchort!!! The de Lisoriis line goes into the Lacey marriage, most of
which I have figured out now too.
===========================
He (Baron William) and his brother Gosfried held in Normandy at La Chieve
(Capra, Chevercourt, Capricuia) in the Seine-Inf. They were allied to the
Busli or Bullys. You also have William's brother's name of 'Goisfrid'.

Baron William Cheever, (or Chievre) was at the Battle of Hastings. He became
a senior Baron of Devon, holding 47 lordships in barony in Devonshire. He
and his brother Gosfried held in Normandy at La Chieve (Capra, Chevercourt,
Capricuia) in the Seine-Inf. They were allied to the Busli or Bullys.
William later became one of the chief barons under King William Rufus. His
daughter, Sibylla, married Robert, Sire de Cuilla.

Manors: Ash, Barton, Awliscombe, Badgworthy, Bradford Witheridge, Colebrook,
Cullompton, Hemyock?? Ivedon, Lynton, MACKHAM, Membury, Mildon, Pirzwell,
Puddington, Radworthy, North Molton, Shillingford, Southleigh, Virworthy,
West Putford, Whipton, Yowlestone, Cadeleigh, Buckland, Braunton, Buckland,
Haccombe, Combe-in-Teignhead, Countisbury, Eastleigh, Huntshawl, lkerton,
Ingsdon, North Buckland, Oakford, Rapshays, Lyn.
===========================
Here above, just sitting ever so quietly, is "MACKHAM". I already had the
names of Fulk, Turold, Ralph, and Alexander de Cheverchort, and a reference
to Carlton in Lindrick. I have never heard of Carlton in Lindrick, and I
decided to take the time to look it up in haste, and guess what, it was
right there inbetween Tickhill and Worksop, and 5 miles from W. and E.
Markham. I knew now that this must be a hit. The Mackham mentioned above is
where his sons were!!!
===========================
<<< The Chevercourt family apparently descended from Thorold, the holder of
Carlton and several other villages in 1086; see Morris, Domesday
Nottinghamshire, f.284c (9, 10), f.285b (9, 50), f.285c (9, 59); and M. H.
Towry White, Memoirs of the House of White of Wallingwells (privately
published, 1886), no page #s. >>>
===========================
There is also a connection, probably the older Alexander de Crevequer to
Redbourne in north Lincs, where some of the oldest lines of Markhams are
found, but not yet linked into the main tree. I am most keen to know if I am
right with my conlcusion. I am most keen to get into some contact with
people interested in this area of research.

In my frantic searches, I have lost one single piece of very important
information that I '''think''' gave the clear connection of the older
Alexander to Fulk. Can anyone help me find this again, or help me with
this??

I think the older Alexander went to Redbourne, and the younger Alexander was
the Sir Alexander de Marcham, Castellan of Nottingham Castle. Turold's line
goes into a whole stack of other surnames, and I think we are coming from
Fulk. This is a long story to write out fully, so I will leave it there for
now.


Yours Sincerely,
Sir Ken Markham, K.C.B.(95)....
========================









..

Gjest

Re: Please Read!!! ---> Baron William Cheever (Chievre)-Crev

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jun 2007 18:14:27

On May 25, 12:36 am, "The Wanderer" <thewande...@iburst.co.za> wrote:
Mye Goodye Cosynes,

A Millennial Code is Broken ???
======================
I think I might have bridged a major gap in our trees. I don't believe this
has ever been solved (or somewhat) until now. My interest is in the surname
of Markham, and the top of our tree. I will keep this fairly brief, but I
hope one can realize the significance of this information.

The top of our Markham is quite wrong in many ways. Informations have been
made '''to fit''' over time. But there are many pointers. I decided that
since Sir Alexander de (Cheverchort) Marcham must have been a real person
since his arms are recorded with the Heralds, but he seems to be out of
place. Now I know why. I also decided that our Lord William, Fulk, Turold,
maybe even Roger, and maybe, maybe not Claron, were actually really there,
but I found a whole set of new Fulks and Turolds just sitting right there
hiding right inbetween (draw a straight line between Tickhill and Worksop)
Tickhill and Worksop, in a place called Carlton, or Carlton-in-Lindrick.
Nearly every single town in this entire area from Tickhill to Worksop to
Retford is going hold many many many of our ancestors, and the beginning of
surnames, etc. !!!

I decided to start going into the history of every single town in this area,
and looking into the history of every single person mentioned that I could.
Now guess who's in Carlton-in-Lindrick??? I started looking into these
pin-prick places, since I found out that there is a place in Yorkshire also
called Lisors, and that whilst this might have been the home of the Fulk and
Turold Lizours, the Domesday Book was probably refering to the Yorkshire
region, and not the Lisieux in France or Normandy. Although they are pritty
much one and the same thing except two clearly different places. Fulk and
Turold would have named this spot from Lizours in France, but the Domesday
Book is not necessarily refering to Normandy, since it is all about land in
England and so on.
===========================
!!! Here is the SECRET of William, Lord of Marckham !!!
===========================
I started to analyse every single word in 'Markham Memorials' Chapter I,
what was said, and most importantly what was not said, and the exact wording
of every single sentence. I came to the conclusion that there must be a
relationship to another family, and looked into this one. I realized that
the wording of William being "Lord of Markham", did not even mean he was
"FROM" Markham, or even ever lived there, or even anything close to that.
What if there was another Lord elsewhere named '''Lord William''', and that
'MM' had some truth in it, because the Markham authors of the past never
actually let go of certain names, I realized that there might still be some
truth in the names being given to us, although they just couldn't put there
finger on the right button, but they knew they were close. Check this out!!!
===========================
William was never given as William Markham!!!
[HOTMF] William, Lord of Markham.
[MM] William, Lord of East Markham.
===========================
I have now found the people to whom we are related, some of them are:
===========================
William Cheever (or Chievre), Baron (Lord or Baron in Devonshire).
[[[ !!! He was also LORD/BARON OF MARCKHAM !!! ]]]
Very close relatives are:
Ralph de Cheverchort.
Fulk de Cheverchort.
Turold de Cheverchort.
Alexander Cheverchort.
===========================
Not only do we have our Baron or Lord of Markham, if this is refering to OUR
(?) Marcham in Notts, it better, or I'll most spiffed, but Fulk and Turold
Cheverchort were living there, very separate people to Fulk and Turold
Lizours, also the Ralph who just keeps on coming into all my own searches.

Did you see who is there ??? That's right, finally, old Alexander de
Cheverchort !!! Alexander de Cheverchort, now living in Marcham, he would
have inherited estates there, as we will see, and he (or his son Alexander,
or both!) must have been the Castellan of Nottingham Castle, and he would
have been from Marcham, and recorded as so, since that is where he was
living !!! We should probably call him Sir Alexander de Cheverchort de
Marcham. That is him alright, he is the son of a major humungous Baron
William de Cheever, of Devon, his residence in Marcham, and he is rightfully
the Castellan of Nottingham Castle.

Rightfully as 'MM' mentioned only once, the Neumarch (NovoForo) line comes
in quite well, as does Furnival, Staveley, Latimer, etc., you name it.
===========================
Variations: Chevrolcourtor Caprecuria, Chevercourt, Clivercher or Cliviger.
===========================
Carlton in Lindrick: Carlton-in-Lindrick parish comprises the two
townships and constablewicks of Carlton-in-Lindrick (sometimes called South
Carlton) and Kingston-in-Carlton, pleasantly situated on the road betwixt
Tickhill and Worksop, 4 miles north of the latter. In Saxon times it was of
sufficient consequence to have six resident thanes, each having a hall or
manor, but these were all possessed by Roger de Busli at the Norman
Conquest. The family of Chevercourt held it under him, but their heirs
failing, it was divided between the Latimers and the Fitzhughs, from whom it
passed to the Dacres, Molyneux, Talors and Cliftons.
===========================
Nearly EVERY single town in and around the triangle of
Tickhill-Retford-Tuxford, you are going to be related closely in some way to
nearly every big name in that area. The above paragraph is just one item I
have, but this is clearly refering to one specific point, and a very
important one, that the lands got further divided, but obviously the name of
Markham isn't mentioned there yet, because no-one has ever known that the
Cheverchorts are also going under the name of Marcham!!!

Sir Alexander will be a son or grandson (Not parent!) of this Baron William,
and Fulk, Turold and Ralph, will be in the region of sons. This will
probably connect to the Hamo de Crevequer lines, Ralph de Pemeraii lines and
so on.
===========================
The Witnesses were Gilbert the Presbyter, Richard the Presbyter, William
the Presbyter, Fulco de Lasoriis, Thoraldus his brother, Ernold de Bulli,
Godefr. the Steward, or Sewer (Dapifer), Turold de Cheverchort, Claron, Raph
Novifori, Pagan, Gladicus, Robert Dispensator, W. de Drincort.
===========================>From the above, we can see that Turold de Cheverchort is clearly not the

same person as Fulc (Fulk) de Lasoriis, but I have several other sources
that do confirm Fulco and Turold DE LISORIIS being brothers, so that part is
correct, they just are NOT the same two people as Fulk and Turold
Cheverchort!!! The de Lisoriis line goes into the Lacey marriage, most of
which I have figured out now too.
===========================
He (Baron William) and his brother Gosfried held in Normandy at La Chieve
(Capra, Chevercourt, Capricuia) in the Seine-Inf. They were allied to the
Busli or Bullys. You also have William's brother's name of 'Goisfrid'.

Baron William Cheever, (or Chievre) was at the Battle of Hastings. He became
a senior Baron of Devon, holding 47 lordships in barony in Devonshire. He
and his brother Gosfried held in Normandy at La Chieve (Capra, Chevercourt,
Capricuia) in the Seine-Inf. They were allied to the Busli or Bullys.
William later became one of the chief barons under King William Rufus. His
daughter, Sibylla, married Robert, Sire de Cuilla.

Manors: Ash, Barton, Awliscombe, Badgworthy, Bradford Witheridge, Colebrook,
Cullompton, Hemyock?? Ivedon, Lynton, MACKHAM, Membury, Mildon, Pirzwell,
Puddington, Radworthy, North Molton, Shillingford, Southleigh, Virworthy,
West Putford, Whipton, Yowlestone, Cadeleigh, Buckland, Braunton, Buckland,
Haccombe, Combe-in-Teignhead, Countisbury, Eastleigh, Huntshawl, lkerton,
Ingsdon, North Buckland, Oakford, Rapshays, Lyn.
===========================
Here above, just sitting ever so quietly, is "MACKHAM". I already had the
names of Fulk, Turold, Ralph, and Alexander de Cheverchort, and a reference
to Carlton in Lindrick. I have never heard of Carlton in Lindrick, and I
decided to take the time to look it up in haste, and guess what, it was
right there inbetween Tickhill and Worksop, and 5 miles from W. and E.
Markham. I knew now that this must be a hit. The Mackham mentioned above is
where his sons were!!!
===========================
The Chevercourt family apparently descended from Thorold, the holder of
Carlton and several other villages in 1086; see Morris, Domesday
Nottinghamshire, f.284c (9, 10), f.285b (9, 50), f.285c (9, 59); and M. H.
Towry White, Memoirs of the House of White of Wallingwells (privately
published, 1886), no page #s.
===========================
There is also a connection, probably the older Alexander de Crevequer to
Redbourne in north Lincs, where some of the oldest lines of Markhams are
found, but not yet linked into the main tree. I am most keen to know if I am
right with my conlcusion. I am most keen to get into some contact with
people interested in this area of research.

In my frantic searches, I have lost one single piece of very important
information that I '''think''' gave the clear connection of the older
Alexander to Fulk. Can anyone help me find this again, or help me with
this??

I think the older Alexander went to Redbourne, and the younger Alexander was
the Sir Alexander de Marcham, Castellan of Nottingham Castle. Turold's line
goes into a whole stack of other surnames, and I think we are coming from
Fulk. This is a long story to write out fully, so I will leave it there for
now.

Yours Sincerely,
Sir Ken Markham, K.C.B.(95)....
========================

.

Sir,

I refer to your claim to be connected to Guillaume Chievre (Willhelmus
Capra), who had 47 manors in Devon with approx 23,000 acres. His
brothers were Ralf de la Pommeraie ( also with large landed
possessions in Devon), Hugh de la Pommeraie, and Beatrix Chievre,
Abbess. There is no known connection with any other county at the time
Domesday was commissioned. Gosfred was not of William's generation,
but of the following one. There was however a Che(e)vers manor in
Norfolk
held by Sir Hammond Chevere c.1230 A.D.
As I am of the senior line of Chevers, and a leading authority on this
family I regret being the bearer of bad news- unless of course you can
substantiate your claim-
certainly I have found no mention of Chievre or Capra in the
Nottingham Domesday, which you can access on-line. Sybilla married
Robert de Cuilly and not Cuilla,
as erroneously printed in another history I have seen.

My e-mail address is maxchevers@hotmail.co.uk

Yours sincerely

Max Chevers

The Wanderer

Baron William Cheever - Creveceour - Markham....

Legg inn av The Wanderer » 02 jun 2007 03:19:05

Hi Max !!!

Thank you for your reply. I would like to just say clearly from the start,
that I am not '''claiming''' descent from Baron William cheevers just yet,
but I will say on this public forum, that I seriously, honestly, and
strongly '''suggest''', that the complete hole in history, which seems to
have been missed by everybody, is that Baron William Cheever of Devon, was
also Lord of Macham, '''might''' be the father of Turold and Fulk de
Cheverchort, of Carlton-in-Lindrick. From Turold's line comes a series of
Alexanders, about 3 consecutive generations or so, but according to the age
old tradition in our family, we come from a Fulk, whose son was Alexander,
whose son was Alexander, into the whole line of the start of the Markham
surname.

I will also say that nearly everything falls into place if you are '''very
familar''' with the top of this Markham tree. The top of this tree has
always been a problem. I took a very very very serious time out to
concentrate on this top of the Markham tree. This is where everything is
happening, where just about every problem is coming in, mis-translation,
mis-everything. A long story short, but I have found for the first time, a
Fulk, Turold, and Alexander, just about 5 miles from Markham, or whatever it
is.

I am not a great historian by any means, or at all, but my keen interest in
my surname and origins, has brought me this far. A lifetime actually.
Posting my 'idea' to this list was not a flash in the dark, a figment of my
imagination (for once!), but something I have given the greatest thought I
possibly can.

But to arrive at Baron William of Devon, is truly an entire set of
circumstances and a serious amount of informations, mostly being incorrect
on the Markham side of things. I am currently of the feeling, that the House
of Markham, and that the 'Noble' line of Markhams, is coming from the is
Baron Cheevers of Devon.

Everything in the books of 'Markham Memorials' and 'History of the Markham
Family' etc., falls right in place when deciphered with '''other'''
non-Markham authors, of which I am currently busy with. As you know, these
things take a lot of time, and in this, a lot of time. To answer your reply:

Thank you for calling me Sir, you have done well!!! I will answer in point
form below:

The linking of the Cheverchorts/Crevequers of Carlton in Lindrick, to Baron
William, to Markham, has never been made as far as I know. It is the
complete missing gap in the pages of history if this is the case!!!

This is not just yet, as the information given out, is so hot off the press,
it will take me months to years to sort it all out. I did word my previous
email to this quite carefully in some parts, so I would not have to retract
on anything I have said. Which I don't.

For a person with 47 manors, it seems like a lot of play ground to have, to
have only a small handful of children??!!?? Some of them were in the manor
areas of their father. I don't know if you are familiar with the
Cheverchorts of Carlton???

In Domesday, a Goisfrid is given in the area of Marcham/Marnham. Keep in
mind that I am seriously new to the Cheever line, so 'specific' items I have
already posted, might be incorrect. I have not concluded this yet, I am also
trying to prove it with a 'aye' from another.

The name of Ham/Hamon/Haimon etc., is interesting. It certainly follows down
the generations, just as does Alexander in the Neville and Markham lines!!!

<<< and a leading authority on this family, I regret being the bearer of bad
news, unless of course you can substantiate your claim, certainly I have
found no mention of Chievre or Capra in the Nottingham Domesday, which you
can access on-line. >>> Yes, and I thank you for that! I am most happy to
have found someone knowledgable on this line of fame. You are not the Bearer
of Bad News. What I am saying to you, is that although, for some reason,
Turold de Cheverchort, Fulk de Cheverchort, and Alexander de Cheverchort, to
'''my best knowledge'', have NEVER linked to any upper lineage, and it is
staring us in the face.

Let me also answer further. Let me ask a question: "Who are the parents of
Turold and Fulk de Chevercourt?".

I don't make any claim to be more knowledgeable than anyone else, but I will
say that I arrived here through an entire set of complicated resolving of
informations. To expand on my previous email, the Alexanders from the Turold
line, are possibly, probably not the same as the one's from the Fulk
lineage, but that is something I am still looking at.

The 'House of Markham', would, if the case, be just ONE of many houses
derived from Baron William of Devon. This Baron William, off this list,
seems to me to be one of the most important people in UK history, but least
known about in most circles. And even as Montgomery became Macgomereii, or
whatever, Markham could '''possibly''' have become MacHam, MacKim, and even
to the Irish lines of Macroom?!?

Proof: No problem. Once again, thank you for your reply, and I hope to
continue off-list. I will say that if this Baron William is NOT our
ancestor, I will make a posting to this group to clearly state that, if I
know it to be true, that he is NOT our ancestor!!! That I will do...

You go to just about any tree, top or bottom from here, this Baron Cheever
fits in, not forced fitted, but perfectly. In the speculative tradition on
the top of the Markham tree, if you substitute either olde Claron, or Roger,
with Baron William Cheever of Devon, every single thing falls into place.

Lastly, I would like to be wrong, so I can continue to look elsewhere. If I
am wrong, then prove it!!!

========================
Yours Sincerely,
Sir Ken Markham, K.C.B.(95)....
========================

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