Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
He was the son of William Wither/Wyther, who is named frequently in
the Patent Rolls of Edward I as a judge; this paternity is contained
in VCh Staffs, sub Alstonefield: "Roger of Littlebury granted his
share [in the manor of Alstonefield] to William Wyther, whose son Sir
Thomas Wyther granted it to Adam of Narrowdale in 1324".
Sir Thomas's wife was named Agnes, as demonstrated by the following
entries in the Staffordshire Plea Rolls (these also shed some light on
her husband's holdings); after his death (c1329) she remarried (c1332)
to John de Shepeye:
3 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued Adam de
Nerewedale and Sara his wife for one third of a tenth part of the
manor of Alstonesfield, and Adam de Werestowe and Margaret his wife
for one third of six acres in Swynscogh, and Andrew de Bemhurst,
chaplain, for one third of 30 acres of meadow in Leghe, which she
claimed as dower.
5 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued John de
Ipstanes and Elizabeth his wife for one third of a messuage, a carcute
and a half of land, and 50 shillings of rent in Draycott and Chekeleye
and Tene, which she claimed as dower.
6 Edward III: John de Shepeye and Agnes his wife sued William de
Shareshull for one third of the manor of Blithewode and 24 shillings
rent in Tene as dower of Agnes, the dotation of Thomas Wyther formerly
her husband. William called to warranty John de Ippestanes, knight,
and the suit was adjourned.
***********
As Peter Sutton posted here in May 2004, William Wyther was the third
husband of Orabilis, widow in turn of Robert de Bec and Sir Richard
Draycott the elder. It appears he also had another wife, who may have
been Thomas's mother, as evidenced again by the Staffordshire Plea
Rolls:
27 Edward I: William Wyther and Agnes his wife, and John son of
William de Ipstones, re common pasture at Blymhill.
I haven't as yet accessed the Knights of Edward I to see if any
further details are given here.
MA-R
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
He was the son of William Wither/Wyther, who is named frequently in
the Patent Rolls of Edward I as a judge; this paternity is contained
in VCh Staffs, sub Alstonefield: "Roger of Littlebury granted his
share [in the manor of Alstonefield] to William Wyther, whose son Sir
Thomas Wyther granted it to Adam of Narrowdale in 1324".
Sir Thomas's wife was named Agnes, as demonstrated by the following
entries in the Staffordshire Plea Rolls (these also shed some light on
her husband's holdings); after his death (c1329) she remarried (c1332)
to John de Shepeye:
3 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued Adam de
Nerewedale and Sara his wife for one third of a tenth part of the
manor of Alstonesfield, and Adam de Werestowe and Margaret his wife
for one third of six acres in Swynscogh, and Andrew de Bemhurst,
chaplain, for one third of 30 acres of meadow in Leghe, which she
claimed as dower.
5 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued John de
Ipstanes and Elizabeth his wife for one third of a messuage, a carcute
and a half of land, and 50 shillings of rent in Draycott and Chekeleye
and Tene, which she claimed as dower.
6 Edward III: John de Shepeye and Agnes his wife sued William de
Shareshull for one third of the manor of Blithewode and 24 shillings
rent in Tene as dower of Agnes, the dotation of Thomas Wyther formerly
her husband. William called to warranty John de Ippestanes, knight,
and the suit was adjourned.
***********
As Peter Sutton posted here in May 2004, William Wyther was the third
husband of Orabilis, widow in turn of Robert de Bec and Sir Richard
Draycott the elder. It appears he also had another wife, who may have
been Thomas's mother, as evidenced again by the Staffordshire Plea
Rolls:
27 Edward I: William Wyther and Agnes his wife, and John son of
William de Ipstones, re common pasture at Blymhill.
I haven't as yet accessed the Knights of Edward I to see if any
further details are given here.
MA-R
-
Larsy
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
Oooooh, such a show of serious scholarship. Is there any reason we
should care about this?
should care about this?
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
He was the son of William Wither/Wyther, who is named frequently in
the Patent Rolls of Edward I as a judge; this paternity is contained
in VCh Staffs, sub Alstonefield: "Roger of Littlebury granted his
share [in the manor of Alstonefield] to William Wyther, whose son Sir
Thomas Wyther granted it to Adam of Narrowdale in 1324".
Sir Thomas's wife was named Agnes, as demonstrated by the following
entries in the Staffordshire Plea Rolls (these also shed some light on
her husband's holdings); after his death (c1329) she remarried (c1332)
to John de Shepeye:
3 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued Adam de
Nerewedale and Sara his wife for one third of a tenth part of the
manor of Alstonesfield, and Adam de Werestowe and Margaret his wife
for one third of six acres in Swynscogh, and Andrew de Bemhurst,
chaplain, for one third of 30 acres of meadow in Leghe, which she
claimed as dower.
5 Edward III: Agnes, formerly wife of Thomas Wyther, sued John de
Ipstanes and Elizabeth his wife for one third of a messuage, a carcute
and a half of land, and 50 shillings of rent in Draycott and Chekeleye
and Tene, which she claimed as dower.
6 Edward III: John de Shepeye and Agnes his wife sued William de
Shareshull for one third of the manor of Blithewode and 24 shillings
rent in Tene as dower of Agnes, the dotation of Thomas Wyther formerly
her husband. William called to warranty John de Ippestanes, knight,
and the suit was adjourned.
***********
As Peter Sutton posted here in May 2004, William Wyther was the third
husband of Orabilis, widow in turn of Robert de Bec and Sir Richard
Draycott the elder. It appears he also had another wife, who may have
been Thomas's mother, as evidenced again by the Staffordshire Plea
Rolls:
27 Edward I: William Wyther and Agnes his wife, and John son of
William de Ipstones, re common pasture at Blymhill.
I haven't as yet accessed the Knights of Edward I to see if any
further details are given here.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On 23 Mai, 21:16, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Rosie Bevan has very kindly provided details from the foregoing; these
show that Sir Thomas Wyther was active from at least 1318, and a
knight from 1322; he had a brother William (ff 1322). His father Sir
William was active from at least 1282 to 1307.
This also shows that, In addition to the Staffs Plea Roll entry of 27
Edward I, the Close Rolls of 4 October 1295 detail Sir William's (?
second) marriage to Agnes; in this latter reference she is called the
widow of William de Ipstones, and is noted as having made a fine for
the homage of John, son and heir of William de Ipstones - presumably
her son.
According to the Staffordshire Historical Collection, vol 4 (1883), p
26 et seq, in 1325 Sir Thomas Wyther was involved in a dispute over
presentation to the living of Church Eaton, also involving "William
Wyther" (probably his brother of that name). Sir Thomas is said to
have stated that he was a kinsman of William de Ipstanes, and that
after John de Ipstanes (William's brother) had returned to England
from Gascony, he (Thomas) armed in concert with John to defend
William's position at Church Eaton. A footnote adds that Sir John de
Ipstones of Ipstones and Blymhill was born circa 1284, although no
reference is cited.
MA-R
According to
As Peter Sutton posted here in May 2004, William Wyther was the third
husband of Orabilis, widow in turn of Robert de Bec and Sir Richard
Draycott the elder. It appears he also had another wife, who may have
been Thomas's mother, as evidenced again by the Staffordshire Plea
Rolls:
27 Edward I: William Wyther and Agnes his wife, and John son of
William de Ipstones, re common pasture at Blymhill.
I haven't as yet accessed the Knights of Edward I to see if any
further details are given here.
Rosie Bevan has very kindly provided details from the foregoing; these
show that Sir Thomas Wyther was active from at least 1318, and a
knight from 1322; he had a brother William (ff 1322). His father Sir
William was active from at least 1282 to 1307.
This also shows that, In addition to the Staffs Plea Roll entry of 27
Edward I, the Close Rolls of 4 October 1295 detail Sir William's (?
second) marriage to Agnes; in this latter reference she is called the
widow of William de Ipstones, and is noted as having made a fine for
the homage of John, son and heir of William de Ipstones - presumably
her son.
According to the Staffordshire Historical Collection, vol 4 (1883), p
26 et seq, in 1325 Sir Thomas Wyther was involved in a dispute over
presentation to the living of Church Eaton, also involving "William
Wyther" (probably his brother of that name). Sir Thomas is said to
have stated that he was a kinsman of William de Ipstanes, and that
after John de Ipstanes (William's brother) had returned to England
from Gascony, he (Thomas) armed in concert with John to defend
William's position at Church Eaton. A footnote adds that Sir John de
Ipstones of Ipstones and Blymhill was born circa 1284, although no
reference is cited.
MA-R
According to
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On 23 Mai, 21:16, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Sir Thomas Wyther apparently had issue, at least three daughters, as
evidenced by the following two Deeds from A2A:
(1) D 231M/E: 1329: writ re an action by Roger de Okeover and Thomas
Wyther & his daughters re three tenements in Okeover (Okeover Deeds,
Derby)
(2) D1229/1/4/69: Edward II (sic) Gift by Elizabeth, Agnes and Alice
daughter (sic) of Lord Thomas Wyther, kt., to William de Ipstones of
30 acres of land, 24 acres of wood in Overmastematherfeld along with
the reversion of all the lands and tenements which John de Kynardseye
held in Thorp by the demise of Thomas Wyther their father
NB No Lettice, as is sometimes alleged in pedigrees of the Cockayne
family.
MA-R
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
He was the son of William Wither/Wyther, who is named frequently in
the Patent Rolls of Edward I as a judge; this paternity is contained
in VCh Staffs, sub Alstonefield: "Roger of Littlebury granted his
share [in the manor of Alstonefield] to William Wyther, whose son Sir
Thomas Wyther granted it to Adam of Narrowdale in 1324".
Sir Thomas's wife was named Agnes, as demonstrated by the following
entries in the Staffordshire Plea Rolls (these also shed some light on
her husband's holdings); after his death (c1329) she remarried (c1332)
to John de Shepeye
Sir Thomas Wyther apparently had issue, at least three daughters, as
evidenced by the following two Deeds from A2A:
(1) D 231M/E: 1329: writ re an action by Roger de Okeover and Thomas
Wyther & his daughters re three tenements in Okeover (Okeover Deeds,
Derby)
(2) D1229/1/4/69: Edward II (sic) Gift by Elizabeth, Agnes and Alice
daughter (sic) of Lord Thomas Wyther, kt., to William de Ipstones of
30 acres of land, 24 acres of wood in Overmastematherfeld along with
the reversion of all the lands and tenements which John de Kynardseye
held in Thorp by the demise of Thomas Wyther their father
NB No Lettice, as is sometimes alleged in pedigrees of the Cockayne
family.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On 23 Mai, 21:16, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
There is however at least one A2A document which may indicate a
connection between the Wyther and Cockayne families:
Portland Deeds, Notts RO (DD P/6/1/1/6) 26 March 1352: Quitclaim, Sir
Nicholas Beek releases to John Cokayn of Ashbourne all lands etc
formerly held by Sir William Wyther or Thomas his son in the fee of
Calton.
MA-R
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
He was the son of William Wither/Wyther, who is named frequently in
the Patent Rolls of Edward I as a judge; this paternity is contained
in VCh Staffs, sub Alstonefield: "Roger of Littlebury granted his
share [in the manor of Alstonefield] to William Wyther, whose son Sir
Thomas Wyther granted it to Adam of Narrowdale in 1324".
Sir Thomas's wife was named Agnes, as demonstrated by the following
entries in the Staffordshire Plea Rolls (these also shed some light on
her husband's holdings); after his death (c1329) she remarried (c1332)
to John de Shepeye
There is however at least one A2A document which may indicate a
connection between the Wyther and Cockayne families:
Portland Deeds, Notts RO (DD P/6/1/1/6) 26 March 1352: Quitclaim, Sir
Nicholas Beek releases to John Cokayn of Ashbourne all lands etc
formerly held by Sir William Wyther or Thomas his son in the fee of
Calton.
MA-R
-
Larsy
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
Sir Thomas Wyther apparently had issue, at least three daughters, as
evidenced by the following two Deeds from A2A:
(1) D 231M/E: 1329: writ re an action by Roger de Okeover and Thomas
Wyther & his daughters re three tenements in Okeover (Okeover Deeds,
Derby)
(2) D1229/1/4/69: Edward II (sic) Gift by Elizabeth, Agnes and Alice
daughter (sic) of Lord Thomas Wyther, kt., to William de Ipstones of
30 acres of land, 24 acres of wood in Overmastematherfeld along with
the reversion of all the lands and tenements which John de Kynardseye
held in Thorp by the demise of Thomas Wyther their father
NB No Lettice, as is sometimes alleged in pedigrees of the Cockayne
family.
Any further descendants beyond the three daughters.? If not, this is
kind of pointless, isn't it?
Lift your game, Michael. We expect more than fluff pictures and fluff
genealogies of people with no descendants.
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On May 24, 3:15 pm, Larsy <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nope: in case it has escaped your dim intellect, this is a mediaeval
genealogy discussion group, not a gateways discussion group (although
you in particular could be excused for not recognising on-topic posts
when you see them). There is no requirement that subjects have
traceable descendants. I post here because I enjoy sharing research,
not because I hope to sell books to putative descendants.
Yawn; your expectations are of no interest. Do you have any mediaeval
genealogy to contribute for a change?
MA-R
Sir Thomas Wyther apparently had issue, at least three daughters, as
evidenced by the following two Deeds from A2A:
(1) D 231M/E: 1329: writ re an action by Roger de Okeover and Thomas
Wyther & his daughters re three tenements in Okeover (Okeover Deeds,
Derby)
(2) D1229/1/4/69: Edward II (sic) Gift by Elizabeth, Agnes and Alice
daughter (sic) of Lord Thomas Wyther, kt., to William de Ipstones of
30 acres of land, 24 acres of wood in Overmastematherfeld along with
the reversion of all the lands and tenements which John de Kynardseye
held in Thorp by the demise of Thomas Wyther their father
NB No Lettice, as is sometimes alleged in pedigrees of the Cockayne
family.
Any further descendants beyond the three daughters.? If not, this is
kind of pointless, isn't it?
Nope: in case it has escaped your dim intellect, this is a mediaeval
genealogy discussion group, not a gateways discussion group (although
you in particular could be excused for not recognising on-topic posts
when you see them). There is no requirement that subjects have
traceable descendants. I post here because I enjoy sharing research,
not because I hope to sell books to putative descendants.
Lift your game, Michael. We expect more than fluff pictures and fluff
genealogies of people with no descendants.
Yawn; your expectations are of no interest. Do you have any mediaeval
genealogy to contribute for a change?
MA-R
-
taf
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On May 23, 1:16 pm, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
It is perhaps worth noting that the London Wither(s) family claimed
descent from him. They are in turn ancestral to immigrant Mary
(Robinson) Birchard.
taf
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
It is perhaps worth noting that the London Wither(s) family claimed
descent from him. They are in turn ancestral to immigrant Mary
(Robinson) Birchard.
taf
-
John Brandon
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
It is perhaps worth noting that the London Wither(s) family claimed
descent from him. They are in turn ancestral to immigrant Mary
(Robinson) Birchard.
taf
Yes, Michael, it would actually be somewhat worthwhile if you could
work out this line of descent. There are many descendants of Mary
Birchard.
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
On 24 Mai, 20:20, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
Many thanks, Todd. I understand that the (Bigg-)Withers of Manydown,
Hants - well-known to any Austen afficienados - also claimed a
relationship. There are two pedigrees at Winchester from their
papers, detailing their descent from "Sir Thomas Wither, servant and
councillor to Henry I" (77AO5/4-5), the first dated 1576 and the
second probably an updated copy of circa 1709. I will check these
when I am next there.
Michael
On May 23, 1:16 pm, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Sir Thomas Wither holds a small footnote in history as the murderer in
1328 of Sir Robert Holand.
It is perhaps worth noting that the London Wither(s) family claimed
descent from him. They are in turn ancestral to immigrant Mary
(Robinson) Birchard.
taf
Many thanks, Todd. I understand that the (Bigg-)Withers of Manydown,
Hants - well-known to any Austen afficienados - also claimed a
relationship. There are two pedigrees at Winchester from their
papers, detailing their descent from "Sir Thomas Wither, servant and
councillor to Henry I" (77AO5/4-5), the first dated 1576 and the
second probably an updated copy of circa 1709. I will check these
when I am next there.
Michael
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
"Larsy" <ravinmaven2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180016149.444962.45170@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Unadulterated garbage - medival genealogy is the study of family
relationships in the medieval era, not restricted to people with
descendants.
The parentage of an abbess or the kinsfolk of a bishop may be highly
interesting, while the extinction of one particular lineage may be more
important than the continuation of another.
And since you have no descendants to benefit from your researches, the
argument could just as well be made that posting information to the internet
about your own ancestors and cousins is "kind of pointless".
Peter Stewart
news:1180016149.444962.45170@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Sir Thomas Wyther apparently had issue, at least three daughters, as
evidenced by the following two Deeds from A2A:
(1) D 231M/E: 1329: writ re an action by Roger de Okeover and Thomas
Wyther & his daughters re three tenements in Okeover (Okeover Deeds,
Derby)
(2) D1229/1/4/69: Edward II (sic) Gift by Elizabeth, Agnes and Alice
daughter (sic) of Lord Thomas Wyther, kt., to William de Ipstones of
30 acres of land, 24 acres of wood in Overmastematherfeld along with
the reversion of all the lands and tenements which John de Kynardseye
held in Thorp by the demise of Thomas Wyther their father
NB No Lettice, as is sometimes alleged in pedigrees of the Cockayne
family.
Any further descendants beyond the three daughters.? If not, this is
kind of pointless, isn't it?
Lift your game, Michael. We expect more than fluff pictures and fluff
genealogies of people with no descendants.
Unadulterated garbage - medival genealogy is the study of family
relationships in the medieval era, not restricted to people with
descendants.
The parentage of an abbess or the kinsfolk of a bishop may be highly
interesting, while the extinction of one particular lineage may be more
important than the continuation of another.
And since you have no descendants to benefit from your researches, the
argument could just as well be made that posting information to the internet
about your own ancestors and cousins is "kind of pointless".
Peter Stewart
-
Larsy
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
And since you have no descendants to benefit from your researches, the
argument could just as well be made that posting information to the internet
about your own ancestors and cousins is "kind of pointless".
No, this doesn't make sense. Just because I don't have descendants,
that doesn't mean I don't have a large number of close relatives.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
"Larsy" <ravinmaven2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180102827.839819.158830@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
And of course the same applies to the medieval people without descendants
that Michael wrote about. It's yet again your response that makes no sense -
once again, try making none.
Peter Stewart
news:1180102827.839819.158830@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
And since you have no descendants to benefit from your researches, the
argument could just as well be made that posting information to the
internet
about your own ancestors and cousins is "kind of pointless".
No, this doesn't make sense. Just because I don't have descendants,
that doesn't mean I don't have a large number of close relatives.
And of course the same applies to the medieval people without descendants
that Michael wrote about. It's yet again your response that makes no sense -
once again, try making none.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Wither (ff 1328) and Agnes his wife
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:YGJ5i.4152$wH4.2213@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
To save Brandon another effort, a distorted sense in his comment has just
occurred to me - perhaps he meant that information about his own
post-medieval ancestors and cousins might be of interest or benefit to his
large number of close relatives.
But if so, there is still no point in posting this stuff to an internet
newsgroup focused on medieval genealogy, for public consumption. Unless his
close relatives are readers of sgm (that I very much doubt), they are not
likely to look here for their immediate family background. Unless they
choose to stay out of touch with Brandon (that I do not very much doubt),
they can surely be contacted directly outside this forum to share
reminiscences and photos.
Peter Stewart
news:YGJ5i.4152$wH4.2213@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Larsy" <ravinmaven2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180102827.839819.158830@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
And since you have no descendants to benefit from your researches, the
argument could just as well be made that posting information to the
internet
about your own ancestors and cousins is "kind of pointless".
No, this doesn't make sense. Just because I don't have descendants,
that doesn't mean I don't have a large number of close relatives.
And of course the same applies to the medieval people without descendants
that Michael wrote about. It's yet again your response that makes no
sense - once again, try making none.
To save Brandon another effort, a distorted sense in his comment has just
occurred to me - perhaps he meant that information about his own
post-medieval ancestors and cousins might be of interest or benefit to his
large number of close relatives.
But if so, there is still no point in posting this stuff to an internet
newsgroup focused on medieval genealogy, for public consumption. Unless his
close relatives are readers of sgm (that I very much doubt), they are not
likely to look here for their immediate family background. Unless they
choose to stay out of touch with Brandon (that I do not very much doubt),
they can surely be contacted directly outside this forum to share
reminiscences and photos.
Peter Stewart