I have now added pages to the Henry Project for the following members
of the Carolingian dynasty.
Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Charles the Bald
Louis II the Stammerer
Judith, wife of Baldwin I
Ermentrude, daughter of Louis II
Pépin of Italy
Bernard of Italy
Pépin, his son
Heribert I of Vermandois
Heribert II of Vermandois
Robert of Troyes
Adèle, wife of Arnulf I
Adèle, wife of Geoffroy Grisegonelle
The URL for the index page is
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
As usual, comments are welcome.
Stewart Baldwin
New Henry Project pages - Carolingians
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Louis the Pious - was: Re: New Henry Project pages - Carolin
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:e62953p9mbn6c2hc6evc67mg7utlbn3q9f@4ax.com...
Thank you for more excellent work on this project.
I haven't been able to read these pages in detail, or the last group as yet.
At a quick look there are a couple of minor additions to the page on Louis
the Pious:
His second wife Judith's death on 19 April is stated in a few sources,
notably a diploma of her son Charles the Bald dated 21 May 854 ("in die
obitus genitricis nostre Judith auguste que est XIII kl. maii", _no. 162 on
p. 429 in vol. 1 of _Recueil des actes de Charles II le Chauve, roi de
France_, edited by Arthur Giry, Maurice Prou & Georges Tessier, 3 vols,
Chartes et diplômes relatifs à l'histoire de France (Paris, 1943-1955). In
another diploma dated 12 May 872, of which the original still exists, a
scribe mistakenly transposed the date into 20 March ("diem
depositionis.matris nostrae gloriosissimae imperatricis Judith quod est
tertio decimo kalendas aprilis", no. 364 on pp. 314-315 in vol 2). However,
the correct date in April is also recorded in the obituaries of Saint-Denis,
Saint-Germain des Prés and Argenteuil.
A falsely attributed child should be added to this page: Christian Settipani
has given Louis a daughter named Berta, providing some wrong references for
her, in _La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987_, part 1 (Villeneuve d'Ascq,
1993) on p. 255 and n. 446. This was perhaps written in confusion before
Christian had studied the personnel and sources for them closely, and not
corrected by him in time - although he may have done so since publication.
The citations given to support the existence of this imaginary Berta - based
on an erroneous passing comment in an article by Constance Bouchard, without
any reference - are as follows: "MGH Dipl. Carol., no, 48, p. 143, 101, 241,
197, p. 353, spur. 34, p. 441".
The only volume in the MGH Diplomatum Karolinorum series that corresponds to
these is no. 3, _Die Urkunden Lothars I. und Lothars II._ edited by Theodor
Schieffer, available at
http://www.dmgh.de/dmghband.html?bsbban ... andansicht.
In this, no. 48 is on pp. 140-142, while p. 143 contains no. 49: these are
documents of Lothar I but neither of them mentions a sister named Berta. The
two following numbers refer to no. 101 on p. 241, but again this does not
mention anyone named Berta, nor does no. 197 on p. 353. The spurious no. 34
on p. 441 does mention a Berta, but this is Lothar II's first cousin,
daughter of his uncle Louis the German ("Berta dilectissima patrui nostri
gloriosi regis filia"). Lothar II's sister Bertana is also mentioned
("sorori nostrae Bertanae"). These ladies were both abbesses - they have
been confused elsewhere, with each other, but as far as I know not with a
non-existent daughter of Louis the Pious by anyone except Bouchard (if this
was the source of her incidental error) and Settipani.
Peter Stewart
news:e62953p9mbn6c2hc6evc67mg7utlbn3q9f@4ax.com...
I have now added pages to the Henry Project for the following members
of the Carolingian dynasty.
Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Charles the Bald
Louis II the Stammerer
Judith, wife of Baldwin I
Ermentrude, daughter of Louis II
Pépin of Italy
Bernard of Italy
Pépin, his son
Heribert I of Vermandois
Heribert II of Vermandois
Robert of Troyes
Adèle, wife of Arnulf I
Adèle, wife of Geoffroy Grisegonelle
The URL for the index page is
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
As usual, comments are welcome.
Thank you for more excellent work on this project.
I haven't been able to read these pages in detail, or the last group as yet.
At a quick look there are a couple of minor additions to the page on Louis
the Pious:
His second wife Judith's death on 19 April is stated in a few sources,
notably a diploma of her son Charles the Bald dated 21 May 854 ("in die
obitus genitricis nostre Judith auguste que est XIII kl. maii", _no. 162 on
p. 429 in vol. 1 of _Recueil des actes de Charles II le Chauve, roi de
France_, edited by Arthur Giry, Maurice Prou & Georges Tessier, 3 vols,
Chartes et diplômes relatifs à l'histoire de France (Paris, 1943-1955). In
another diploma dated 12 May 872, of which the original still exists, a
scribe mistakenly transposed the date into 20 March ("diem
depositionis.matris nostrae gloriosissimae imperatricis Judith quod est
tertio decimo kalendas aprilis", no. 364 on pp. 314-315 in vol 2). However,
the correct date in April is also recorded in the obituaries of Saint-Denis,
Saint-Germain des Prés and Argenteuil.
A falsely attributed child should be added to this page: Christian Settipani
has given Louis a daughter named Berta, providing some wrong references for
her, in _La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987_, part 1 (Villeneuve d'Ascq,
1993) on p. 255 and n. 446. This was perhaps written in confusion before
Christian had studied the personnel and sources for them closely, and not
corrected by him in time - although he may have done so since publication.
The citations given to support the existence of this imaginary Berta - based
on an erroneous passing comment in an article by Constance Bouchard, without
any reference - are as follows: "MGH Dipl. Carol., no, 48, p. 143, 101, 241,
197, p. 353, spur. 34, p. 441".
The only volume in the MGH Diplomatum Karolinorum series that corresponds to
these is no. 3, _Die Urkunden Lothars I. und Lothars II._ edited by Theodor
Schieffer, available at
http://www.dmgh.de/dmghband.html?bsbban ... andansicht.
In this, no. 48 is on pp. 140-142, while p. 143 contains no. 49: these are
documents of Lothar I but neither of them mentions a sister named Berta. The
two following numbers refer to no. 101 on p. 241, but again this does not
mention anyone named Berta, nor does no. 197 on p. 353. The spurious no. 34
on p. 441 does mention a Berta, but this is Lothar II's first cousin,
daughter of his uncle Louis the German ("Berta dilectissima patrui nostri
gloriosi regis filia"). Lothar II's sister Bertana is also mentioned
("sorori nostrae Bertanae"). These ladies were both abbesses - they have
been confused elsewhere, with each other, but as far as I know not with a
non-existent daughter of Louis the Pious by anyone except Bouchard (if this
was the source of her incidental error) and Settipani.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Charles the Bald [was: Re: New Henry Project pages - Carolin
Here are a few notes on the page for Charles the Bald:
A better source than the annals of Weissemburg can be given for the
birthdate of Charles - 13 June is stated in his own diploma dated 3 April
852, "vero idus junii, qua constat nos in hoc mundo natum fuisse", _Recueil
des actes de Charles II le Chauve, roi de France_, 3 vols, edited by Arthur
Giry, Maurice Prou & Georges Tessier (Paris, 1943-1955) no. 147, vol. I p.
389; and agin in a diploma dated 21 May 854, "Karolus gratia Dei rex.in die
nativitatis nostre que est idibus junii", ibid no. 162, p. 429. The place,
Frankfurt, as well as the date are stated in the annals of Saint-Bénigne
abbey at Dijon, "Natus est Karolus, filius Ludowici, in Franconofurt Idus
Iun.", see Annales Sancti Benigni Divionensis, edited by Georg Waitz, MGH SS
V 37-50 at p. 39, erroneously recorded under 824 instead of the correct
year, 823.
It is most unlikey that he died at Briançon as Georg Waitz suggested. I
wonder if he had even looked at a map - Charles died after crossing the Mont
Cenis pass on his way back from Italy to northern France, presumably at
Brion ("Brios" in the annals of Saint-Bertin). This is just a few miles from
Nantua, where he was initially buried. Briançon on the other hand is well
away from his route while living, and from there to Nantua is not a
plausible direction that would have been taken with his corpse.
Louis II the Stammerer, eldest son of Charles, was born on 1 November, not
in December - we have his own word for this, in a diploma dated 20 June 878,
"Hludovicus misericordia Dei rex.diem nativitatis nostrae, quae est kl.
novembris", see his documents in _Recueil des actes de Louis II le Bègue,
Louis III et Carloman II, rois de France (877-884)_, edited by Félix Grat,
Jacques de Font-Réaulx, Georges Tessier & Robert-Henri Bautier (Paris,
1978), no. 12 p. 32.
Rotrud, given as a daughter of Charles in a great many secondary authorities
including Werner and Settipani, will I suspect turn out to be a falsely
attributed child. As far as I know the only evidence for her as a member of
this family is a patently forged diploma of Louis the Stammerer, naming
Rotrude as abbess of Saint-Croix and then as an afterthought calling her his
sister. This appeared in 1377, when it was presented to the chancery of King
Charles V by the nuns of Sainte-Croix seeking a vidimus that was actually
issued in confirmation providing the text as it has come down to us. At the
same time they presented a genuine diploma, somewhat, bizarrely with the
same text and date, where the abbess is named instead as Ava and not
described as related to Louis. The latter document is known from independent
copies that were taken later from the original, and is not suspect. However,
the false version apparently gave rise long ago to the idea that Charles had
a daughter named Rotrude, and historians have been trying to identify her
with various occurrences of the name ever since.
Unless someone else can offer definite information about this, I will check
further when I have time and will be equally happy if my doubts are proved
to be right or wrong. At any rate, the Rotrud who was a candidate for
election as abbess of Sainte-Croix and Sainte-Radegonde at Poitiers is known
only from a letter of Hincmar reported by Flodoard, see _Historia Remensis
ecclesiae_, edited by Martina Stratmann, MGH SS XXXVI (Hanover, 1998) pp.
348-349. There is nothing at all in this letter to suggest that she was a
Carolingian princess - and of course they were not noted for submitting
themselves to election in clearly divided communities with no assurance of
the outcome, much less for decamping from Aquitaine to Alsace when this went
against them, as Werner implausibly speculated. The identification as a
daughter of Charles appears to be a fanciful idea that was exploited by the
nuns in the 14th century, possibly from knowing the facts or perhaps more
likely just because the same name had famously occurred in the lineage, as
some genealogists are inclined to do whenever onomastics offer a convenient
solution.
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:e62953p9mbn6c2hc6evc67mg7utlbn3q9f@4ax.com...
A better source than the annals of Weissemburg can be given for the
birthdate of Charles - 13 June is stated in his own diploma dated 3 April
852, "vero idus junii, qua constat nos in hoc mundo natum fuisse", _Recueil
des actes de Charles II le Chauve, roi de France_, 3 vols, edited by Arthur
Giry, Maurice Prou & Georges Tessier (Paris, 1943-1955) no. 147, vol. I p.
389; and agin in a diploma dated 21 May 854, "Karolus gratia Dei rex.in die
nativitatis nostre que est idibus junii", ibid no. 162, p. 429. The place,
Frankfurt, as well as the date are stated in the annals of Saint-Bénigne
abbey at Dijon, "Natus est Karolus, filius Ludowici, in Franconofurt Idus
Iun.", see Annales Sancti Benigni Divionensis, edited by Georg Waitz, MGH SS
V 37-50 at p. 39, erroneously recorded under 824 instead of the correct
year, 823.
It is most unlikey that he died at Briançon as Georg Waitz suggested. I
wonder if he had even looked at a map - Charles died after crossing the Mont
Cenis pass on his way back from Italy to northern France, presumably at
Brion ("Brios" in the annals of Saint-Bertin). This is just a few miles from
Nantua, where he was initially buried. Briançon on the other hand is well
away from his route while living, and from there to Nantua is not a
plausible direction that would have been taken with his corpse.
Louis II the Stammerer, eldest son of Charles, was born on 1 November, not
in December - we have his own word for this, in a diploma dated 20 June 878,
"Hludovicus misericordia Dei rex.diem nativitatis nostrae, quae est kl.
novembris", see his documents in _Recueil des actes de Louis II le Bègue,
Louis III et Carloman II, rois de France (877-884)_, edited by Félix Grat,
Jacques de Font-Réaulx, Georges Tessier & Robert-Henri Bautier (Paris,
1978), no. 12 p. 32.
Rotrud, given as a daughter of Charles in a great many secondary authorities
including Werner and Settipani, will I suspect turn out to be a falsely
attributed child. As far as I know the only evidence for her as a member of
this family is a patently forged diploma of Louis the Stammerer, naming
Rotrude as abbess of Saint-Croix and then as an afterthought calling her his
sister. This appeared in 1377, when it was presented to the chancery of King
Charles V by the nuns of Sainte-Croix seeking a vidimus that was actually
issued in confirmation providing the text as it has come down to us. At the
same time they presented a genuine diploma, somewhat, bizarrely with the
same text and date, where the abbess is named instead as Ava and not
described as related to Louis. The latter document is known from independent
copies that were taken later from the original, and is not suspect. However,
the false version apparently gave rise long ago to the idea that Charles had
a daughter named Rotrude, and historians have been trying to identify her
with various occurrences of the name ever since.
Unless someone else can offer definite information about this, I will check
further when I have time and will be equally happy if my doubts are proved
to be right or wrong. At any rate, the Rotrud who was a candidate for
election as abbess of Sainte-Croix and Sainte-Radegonde at Poitiers is known
only from a letter of Hincmar reported by Flodoard, see _Historia Remensis
ecclesiae_, edited by Martina Stratmann, MGH SS XXXVI (Hanover, 1998) pp.
348-349. There is nothing at all in this letter to suggest that she was a
Carolingian princess - and of course they were not noted for submitting
themselves to election in clearly divided communities with no assurance of
the outcome, much less for decamping from Aquitaine to Alsace when this went
against them, as Werner implausibly speculated. The identification as a
daughter of Charles appears to be a fanciful idea that was exploited by the
nuns in the 14th century, possibly from knowing the facts or perhaps more
likely just because the same name had famously occurred in the lineage, as
some genealogists are inclined to do whenever onomastics offer a convenient
solution.
Peter Stewart
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:e62953p9mbn6c2hc6evc67mg7utlbn3q9f@4ax.com...
I have now added pages to the Henry Project for the following members
of the Carolingian dynasty.
Charlemagne
Louis the Pious
Charles the Bald
Louis II the Stammerer
Judith, wife of Baldwin I
Ermentrude, daughter of Louis II
Pépin of Italy
Bernard of Italy
Pépin, his son
Heribert I of Vermandois
Heribert II of Vermandois
Robert of Troyes
Adèle, wife of Arnulf I
Adèle, wife of Geoffroy Grisegonelle
The URL for the index page is
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
As usual, comments are welcome.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Charles the Bald [was: Re: New Henry Project pages - Car
On May 28, 11:30 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
I was wrong to say that Rotrude is "known only from a letter of
Hincmar reported by Flodoard", and there is independent evidence that
she came from a royal line although I still suspect that she was not a
daughter of Charles the Bald.
In any event, Werner's speculations about her are certainly not
correct: far from being a failed candidate for election as abbess of
Sainte-Croix and leaving there for Alsace as he thought, Rotrude did
in fact become the abbess before 24 September 863, and was still
abbess on 28 November perhaps a few years later - nothing more is
known directly, but since Eva was abbess in September 878 it can be
assumed that Rotrude was dead by then.
The source for her as abbess is in two separate notices written in a
late 9th- or 10th-century manuscript from Poitiers, BN lat. 7505,
describing (apparently) two consecrations of the church of Saint-
Radegonde, presumably rebuilt twice after damage or destruction in
Viking attacks. This church, burial place of the foundress, was ruled
by the abbess of Sainte-Croix.
The first records a consecration by Bishop Ingenald of Poitiers on 24
September 863, "rothrudis de semine regali orta abbatissa" (Abbess
Rotrude, sprung from royal seed). The second, in verse, records
another consecration also by Ingenald on a 28 November, without giving
the year, "Abbatissa sed hanc rotrudis regia proles" (But Abbess
Rotrude, royal offspring).
Nothing specifies that she was daughter of Charles the Bald himself,
who was the reigning king of the West Franks in 863. It seems unlikely
that he would have allowed a young daughter to be subjected to a
contested election just a few years earlier - Hincmar's letter about
this must have dated between 860 when Ingenald became bishop and
September 863 by when Rotrude had become abbess. At this time even an
eldest child of Charles the Bald by his first wife Ermentrude (whom he
married in December 942) cannot have been more than 17-20 years old.
It is clear that Abbess Rotrude must have been related to the royal
family and most probably was daughter of a Carolingian king. However,
as far as I can tell this would more plausibly have been the elder
half-brother of Charles, Pippin I king of Aquitaine, who was buried in
the church of Sainte-Radegonde at Poitiers in December 838 and had a
known full-sister named Rotrude, or perhaps her father was another of
their close relatives.
Peter Stewart
Here are a few notes on the page for Charles the Bald:
<snip>
Rotrud, given as a daughter of Charles in a great many secondary authorities
including Werner and Settipani, will I suspect turn out to be a falsely
attributed child. As far as I know the only evidence for her as a member of
this family is a patently forged diploma of Louis the Stammerer, naming
Rotrude as abbess of Saint-Croix and then as an afterthought calling her his
sister. This appeared in 1377, when it was presented to the chancery of King
Charles V by the nuns of Sainte-Croix seeking a vidimus that was actually
issued in confirmation providing the text as it has come down to us. At the
same time they presented a genuine diploma, somewhat, bizarrely with the
same text and date, where the abbess is named instead as Ava and not
described as related to Louis. The latter document is known from independent
copies that were taken later from the original, and is not suspect. However,
the false version apparently gave rise long ago to the idea that Charles had
a daughter named Rotrude, and historians have been trying to identify her
with various occurrences of the name ever since.
Unless someone else can offer definite information about this, I will check
further when I have time and will be equally happy if my doubts are proved
to be right or wrong. At any rate, the Rotrud who was a candidate for
election as abbess of Sainte-Croix and Sainte-Radegonde at Poitiers is known
only from a letter of Hincmar reported by Flodoard, see _Historia Remensis
ecclesiae_, edited by Martina Stratmann, MGH SS XXXVI (Hanover, 1998) pp.
348-349. There is nothing at all in this letter to suggest that she was a
Carolingian princess - and of course they were not noted for submitting
themselves to election in clearly divided communities with no assurance of
the outcome, much less for decamping from Aquitaine to Alsace when this went
against them, as Werner implausibly speculated. The identification as a
daughter of Charles appears to be a fanciful idea that was exploited by the
nuns in the 14th century, possibly from knowing the facts or perhaps more
likely just because the same name had famously occurred in the lineage, as
some genealogists are inclined to do whenever onomastics offer a convenient
solution.
I was wrong to say that Rotrude is "known only from a letter of
Hincmar reported by Flodoard", and there is independent evidence that
she came from a royal line although I still suspect that she was not a
daughter of Charles the Bald.
In any event, Werner's speculations about her are certainly not
correct: far from being a failed candidate for election as abbess of
Sainte-Croix and leaving there for Alsace as he thought, Rotrude did
in fact become the abbess before 24 September 863, and was still
abbess on 28 November perhaps a few years later - nothing more is
known directly, but since Eva was abbess in September 878 it can be
assumed that Rotrude was dead by then.
The source for her as abbess is in two separate notices written in a
late 9th- or 10th-century manuscript from Poitiers, BN lat. 7505,
describing (apparently) two consecrations of the church of Saint-
Radegonde, presumably rebuilt twice after damage or destruction in
Viking attacks. This church, burial place of the foundress, was ruled
by the abbess of Sainte-Croix.
The first records a consecration by Bishop Ingenald of Poitiers on 24
September 863, "rothrudis de semine regali orta abbatissa" (Abbess
Rotrude, sprung from royal seed). The second, in verse, records
another consecration also by Ingenald on a 28 November, without giving
the year, "Abbatissa sed hanc rotrudis regia proles" (But Abbess
Rotrude, royal offspring).
Nothing specifies that she was daughter of Charles the Bald himself,
who was the reigning king of the West Franks in 863. It seems unlikely
that he would have allowed a young daughter to be subjected to a
contested election just a few years earlier - Hincmar's letter about
this must have dated between 860 when Ingenald became bishop and
September 863 by when Rotrude had become abbess. At this time even an
eldest child of Charles the Bald by his first wife Ermentrude (whom he
married in December 942) cannot have been more than 17-20 years old.
It is clear that Abbess Rotrude must have been related to the royal
family and most probably was daughter of a Carolingian king. However,
as far as I can tell this would more plausibly have been the elder
half-brother of Charles, Pippin I king of Aquitaine, who was buried in
the church of Sainte-Radegonde at Poitiers in December 838 and had a
known full-sister named Rotrude, or perhaps her father was another of
their close relatives.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Charles the Bald [was: Re: New Henry Project pages - Car
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1182477097.180378.174260@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
The marriage was in December 842, of course, or their eldest child might
have been minus 82-79 years in 860/63.
It is worth noting also that Charles the Bald's daughter Judith was married
to the English king Æthelwulf on 1 October 856: if she was not the eldest
child of the marriage to Ermentrude, born in 843 or 834 at the latest, and
if she had an elder sister named Rotrude, it would be hard to explain why
the latter was not chosen for the royal marriage and instead turned up seven
years later as a nun. Louis the Stammerer was born on 1 November 846: if
Rotrude had fitted in between Judith and him, she would have been born in
late 844 or 845 and consequently only 15-19 between 860 and September 863
when a princess named Rotrude was elected abbess of Sainte-Croix. If Charles
had wished to make his daughter an abbess at that age, there were houses
without the privilege of electing their own abbesses where this could have
been achieved without submitting to a popularity contest, in which failure
would have reflected more discredit on the court & king than on a girl.
Peter Stewart
news:1182477097.180378.174260@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
Nothing specifies that she was daughter of Charles the Bald himself,
who was the reigning king of the West Franks in 863. It seems unlikely
that he would have allowed a young daughter to be subjected to a
contested election just a few years earlier - Hincmar's letter about
this must have dated between 860 when Ingenald became bishop and
September 863 by when Rotrude had become abbess. At this time even an
eldest child of Charles the Bald by his first wife Ermentrude (whom he
married in December 942) cannot have been more than 17-20 years old.
The marriage was in December 842, of course, or their eldest child might
have been minus 82-79 years in 860/63.
It is worth noting also that Charles the Bald's daughter Judith was married
to the English king Æthelwulf on 1 October 856: if she was not the eldest
child of the marriage to Ermentrude, born in 843 or 834 at the latest, and
if she had an elder sister named Rotrude, it would be hard to explain why
the latter was not chosen for the royal marriage and instead turned up seven
years later as a nun. Louis the Stammerer was born on 1 November 846: if
Rotrude had fitted in between Judith and him, she would have been born in
late 844 or 845 and consequently only 15-19 between 860 and September 863
when a princess named Rotrude was elected abbess of Sainte-Croix. If Charles
had wished to make his daughter an abbess at that age, there were houses
without the privilege of electing their own abbesses where this could have
been achieved without submitting to a popularity contest, in which failure
would have reflected more discredit on the court & king than on a girl.
Peter Stewart