Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

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John P. Ravilious

Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 23 mai 2007 03:19:04

Tuesday, 22 May, 2007


Dear Rosie, MichaelAnne, Doug, Nat, Brendan, et al.,

Harking back to past discussions concerning Sir William
FitzWilliam of Sprotborough and Emley, Yorks. (d. aft 4 Mar
1338/9) and his issue, as I recall it has been all but proven
that the daughters of Sir William (e.g., Margaret, wife of Henry
de Pierrepont, and Joan, wife of Sir Brian de Thornhill) were
his issue by Isabel Deincourt, his (apparent) 2nd wife. Based
largely on her will dated 25 July 1348, it also appeared that
Sir John FitzWilliam, eldest surviving son and heir of Sir
William, was her son as well [she made a bequest to
"Johanni filio meo", among others], but I recall there had
remained a doubt in some corners.

An otherwise obscure record concerning lands in Dalton juxta
Thribergh, Yorks. serves to cement the relationship. In
Isabel's will she calls John her son; in this demise by John
FitzWilliam dated 29 May 1348 - obviously during Isabel
Deincourt's lifetime - she is called "Isabella, the grantor's
mother".

' 1348. Demise by John son of Sir William, Knt. Knt.,
29 May. Knt., to Robt. Loveday of Dalton of one messuage
1 1/2 oxgang, a plot called Molde Riddyng', and
half an assart called the Newebrekk', which as appears
by inspection of the grantors court rolls of Dalton, the
said Robt. holds by demise of Isabella, the grantor's
mother, for her life for 24s. 6d. rent; for 40 years
after her death at the same rent.
Witnesses: - Sir Thos. Clarell, Ralf de Rerisby, John
del Hill of Dalton, Adam Gamell, Wm. Mauger, Ric. son
of Nicholas de Ravenfeld, John de Blida, clerk.
Sprotburgh, Thursday, Ascension Day, 1348. [B. 86.]' [1]


The Deincourt ancestry of the later FitzWilliams of
Sprotborough, and of the descendants of the FitzWilliam
daughters, is certain. The matter of the maternal ancestry
of Isabel Deincourt (possibly not via de Mohun) still deserves
further study.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] Alfred S. Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds, YAJ XII:239-240.


* John P. Ravilious

John Watson

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av John Watson » 24 mai 2007 04:48:32

On May 23, 10:19 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Tuesday, 22 May, 2007

Apologies for the multiple copies of my previous message - I only

pressed the send button once - honestly.

Regards,

John

Ian Goddard

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 27 mai 2007 17:50:03

John P. Ravilious wrote:

<snip>
An otherwise obscure record concerning lands in Dalton juxta
Thribergh, Yorks. serves to cement the relationship. In
Isabel's will she calls John her son; in this demise by John
FitzWilliam dated 29 May 1348 - obviously during Isabel
Deincourt's lifetime - she is called "Isabella, the grantor's
mother".

John,

I'm interested in connections between this area and the FitzWilliams. Do
you have any further info on this?

--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 29 mai 2007 02:15:13

Dear Ian,

There is a rather extensive FitzWilliam connection to Dalton,
centred around the manor of Wath (not Wath upon Dearn, W.R.,
obviously). You can find quite a bit in A. S. Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds
(YAJ XII:238-241) which I have yet to fully transcribe. This is
available online at

http://books.google.com/books?id=pU2AaX ... #PPA241,M1

A query of "FitzWilliam Sprotburgh Dalton" in Google Books will
bring this volume up, as well as YAJ XVI (indications of one or more
FitzWilliam/Dalton entries).

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John



On May 27, 12:50�pm, Ian Goddard <godda...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
John P. Ravilious wrote:

snip



     An otherwise obscure record concerning lands in Dalton juxta
 Thribergh, Yorks. serves to cement the relationship.  In
 Isabel's will she calls John her son; in this demise by John
 FitzWilliam dated 29 May 1348 - obviously during Isabel
 Deincourt's lifetime - she is called "Isabella, the grantor's
 mother".

John,

I'm interested in connections between this area and the FitzWilliams.  Do
you have any further info on this?

--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers.  The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

TJ Booth

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 29 mai 2007 17:53:51

John,

Can you please update me on the status of an earlier 19 Jun 2006 posting, which noted a PRO document that seemed to suggest that John FitzWilliam was not a son of Isabel Deincourt, but rather a stepson who would inherit only 'on default of a male heir' by William FitzWilliam and Isabel. The text was apparently translated from the Latin, and a different CPR translation quoted in the 19 Jun posting made no mention of the 'default of a male heir' language (but also did not indentify Isabel as John's mother, only William as the father) :

PRO website FILE - Licence - ref. WWM/D/26,27 - date: 27 Dec 1324
Contents : To William Fitzwilliam and Isabel, his wife, to levy a fine to Edmund Deyncourt. In the manor of Emeleye, held of the King, as of his manor of Wakefield; and his manor of Darthington, held of the King as of his Honour of Pontefract, as the King is informed by Inquisition made by Simon de Grymmesby, escheator for the counties of York, Westmoreland, Northumberland and Cumberland. To be to the use of William and Isabella. On default of a male heir, then to the use of John Fitzwilliam, and thereafter to specified uses. The consideration is to be 12 marks. At Nottingham, 27 December, 1324 Seal: Great Seal of King Edward II Obverse: King enthroned in majesty: open crown of three points fleury, sceptre ensigned with dove and branch. Throne of elaborate tabernacle work, with back, rising sides, and front pieces adorned with arcading. Foot board, or corbel, ornamented with foliage and rings. Under foot, two small lions couchant guardant; and, at each side of the throne, lion leaping up towards the king. ...ANGLIE DOMINUS H...NIE DUX AQUITANIE Reverse: Equestrian, King on horse to right, in haubert of chain mail with crown, surcoat, spur, broad sword elevated and shield or arms of England. Bardings of neck and flank of horse charged with same arms reversed. ...WARDUS DEI GRATIA REX ANGLIE DNS H... Round, red wax.
Were John Isabel's stepson with his inheritance being held by agreement, any later references to Isabel as John's mother (such your last post) might simply reflect that John inherited Isabel's property 'as if' she was his actual mother without going into a longer explanation. Another later document identifying Isabel as his mother - no doubt previously posted - is :

PRO website FILE - A note of bequests and gifts - ref. WWM/D/37 - date: c. 1349
Contents : Made by Sir John Fitzwilliam 'in the time of the pestilence', to Lady Joan [Reresby], his wife, Lady Isabel, his mother, and John, his son, and containing a summary of his possessions in Plumbtre, Sprotburgh and Emelie.
Has the 27 Dec 1324 document (perhaps based on a better translation) now been found to be consistent with the 'Lady Isabel his mother' documents?

Terry Booth
Chicago


----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt


Tuesday, 22 May, 2007


Dear Rosie, MichaelAnne, Doug, Nat, Brendan, et al.,

Harking back to past discussions concerning Sir William
FitzWilliam of Sprotborough and Emley, Yorks. (d. aft 4 Mar
1338/9) and his issue, as I recall it has been all but proven
that the daughters of Sir William (e.g., Margaret, wife of Henry
de Pierrepont, and Joan, wife of Sir Brian de Thornhill) were
his issue by Isabel Deincourt, his (apparent) 2nd wife. Based
largely on her will dated 25 July 1348, it also appeared that
Sir John FitzWilliam, eldest surviving son and heir of Sir
William, was her son as well [she made a bequest to
"Johanni filio meo", among others], but I recall there had
remained a doubt in some corners.

An otherwise obscure record concerning lands in Dalton juxta
Thribergh, Yorks. serves to cement the relationship. In
Isabel's will she calls John her son; in this demise by John
FitzWilliam dated 29 May 1348 - obviously during Isabel
Deincourt's lifetime - she is called "Isabella, the grantor's
mother".

' 1348. Demise by John son of Sir William, Knt. Knt.,
29 May. Knt., to Robt. Loveday of Dalton of one messuage
1 1/2 oxgang, a plot called Molde Riddyng', and
half an assart called the Newebrekk', which as appears
by inspection of the grantors court rolls of Dalton, the
said Robt. holds by demise of Isabella, the grantor's
mother, for her life for 24s. 6d. rent; for 40 years
after her death at the same rent.
Witnesses: - Sir Thos. Clarell, Ralf de Rerisby, John
del Hill of Dalton, Adam Gamell, Wm. Mauger, Ric. son
of Nicholas de Ravenfeld, John de Blida, clerk.
Sprotburgh, Thursday, Ascension Day, 1348. [B. 86.]' [1]


The Deincourt ancestry of the later FitzWilliams of
Sprotborough, and of the descendants of the FitzWilliam
daughters, is certain. The matter of the maternal ancestry
of Isabel Deincourt (possibly not via de Mohun) still deserves
further study.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] Alfred S. Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds, YAJ XII:239-240.


* John P. Ravilious


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Ian Goddard

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 29 mai 2007 18:28:38

John P. Ravilious wrote:

Dear Ian,

There is a rather extensive FitzWilliam connection to Dalton,
centred around the manor of Wath (not Wath upon Dearn, W.R.,
obviously). You can find quite a bit in A. S. Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds
(YAJ XII:238-241) which I have yet to fully transcribe. This is
available online at


http://books.google.com/books?id=pU2AaX ... #PPA241,M1

A query of "FitzWilliam Sprotburgh Dalton" in Google Books will
bring this volume up, as well as YAJ XVI (indications of one or more
FitzWilliam/Dalton entries).

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John

John,


Thanks for that. With a bit of luck Huddersfield public library will have
the volumes. I'm a bit puzzled why you say *not* Wath on Dearn. This is
quite near and the only Wath not on Dearne I can think of is miles away.

My interest is this:
In the mid C14th I have what looks like 2 generations of William Godard in
Dalton & Whiston - in fact one of the records is the only male Godard in
the subsidy roll. In the C16th parish registers there are Goddards in
Sheffield (no great distance away) and in Almondbury & Kirkburton which is
where I can trace my own line back in the mid C17th and which is rather
further away. In the early C17th there are references in Emley the parish
register (which doesn't survive earlier) and in the Sprotborough register
(according to IGI).

There's a documentary reference for a John Godard in Sheffield in 1410 and
one for a Christopher Godard in Emley/Skelmanthorpe in 1425 (it seems to be
related to the marriage between one of the FitzWilliams and the Wentworth
heiress). It appears, therefore, that a branch of the family might have
migrated directly to Emley from the other side of Rotherham which, on the
face of it, is a less obvious move than the one to Sheffield. The fact that
the FitzWilliams had interests in the Dalton area as well as holding Emley
from the lords of Wakefield this suggests a mechanism by which members of
the general population might migrate over rather longer distances than the
next parish.


--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

Ian Goddard

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 31 mai 2007 00:15:19

TJ Booth wrote:

John,

Contents : To William Fitzwilliam and Isabel, his wife, to levy a fine to
Edmund Deyncourt. In the manor of Emeleye, held of the King, as of his
manor of Wakefield; and his manor of Darthington, held of the King as of
his Honour of Pontefract, as the King is informed by Inquisition made by

Darthington is Darrington, just SE of Pontefract.



and John, his son, and containing a summary of his possessions in
Plumbtre, Sprotburgh and Emelie. Has the 27 Dec 1324 document (perhaps

Plumbtre is Plumtree in Nottinghamshire, SE of Nottingham. There are a
couple of references in Google books.

http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=T1kCAA ... tre&pgis=1 -
it appears that the Rev Greenhalgh was rector of both Plumtre and Hooton
Roberts near Sprotborough.

http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=gz4uAA ... q=plumbtre - see
esp. pp 132 & 133.

--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 31 mai 2007 03:17:07

Dear Terry,

The identification of John FitzWilliam as the issue of William by
a wife earlier that Isabel Deincourt hinged in part on tight
chronology, and primarily on the wording of the document from A2A you
cited (WWM/D/26,27). The statement, "To be to the use of William and
Isabella. On default of a male heir, then to the use of John
FitzWilliam..." has been taken to imply that John was not Isabella's
child.

The problems with this document as sole testimony are (A) we
don't have the original text in hand, (B) the text was originally
Latin, and has been translated, and (C) the original text would have
had no modern punctuation. How accurate the rendering in English
portrays the Latin context is impossible to say. What we do have in
addition on this matter are )A_ a 1345 document (see [1] below) and
(B) the 1348 demise concerning Dalton juxta Thribergh, given in the
first post in this thread, both of which show John FitzWilliam calling
Isabel (Deincourt) FitzWilliam his mother. These might also be called
suspect due to their translation: with regard to same, we also have
(C) the will of Isabel (Deincourt) FitzWilliam from 1348 (see [2]
below), edited, but in Latin. Throughout this document, Isabel calls
the FitzWilliam heir "John my son" ['Johanni filio meo' in her direct
bequests].

Isabel was likely born between say 1275 and 1280; I don't see any
chronological difficulty with this matching the known details
concerning John FitzWilliam or his sisters. There was an elder son
William, hanged in March 1322 after the Battle of Boroughbridge for
his following the Earl of Lancaster: he may not have been Isabel's
son, but there is no genealogical impact one way or the other, as he
died sine prole.

Cheers,

John




NOTES

[1] Confirmation dated 20 Nov 1345:

' John Fitzwilliam of Emlay, knight, to William Frankys
de Cateby and John de Gray.
Confirming a grant made by his mother, Isabella
de Emlay, of 20 acres of land and a third part of one
toft, with appurtenances, in Sprotburgh and Cateby.
Witnesses: John de Raddeklyf, parson of the Church
of Sprotburgh, Hugh de Sandall, Thomas de Huntyngfeld,
William de Estfeld.
At Sprotburgh, Sunday after the octave of
St Martin in winter (11 November) 1345. ' - A2A,
Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments
[WWM/C - WWM/E] , WWM/D/34




[2] The complete text of will of Isabel Deincourt,
dated 25 Jul 1348:

' XL. Testamentum Isabelle quae fuit uxor Domini
Willielmi Filii Willielmi de Emeley Militis.

In Dei nomine, Amen. Ego Isabella, quae fui uxor Domini
Willielmi filii
Willielmi de Emelay militis, die Veneris in festo Sancti Jacobi
Apostoli, Anno
Domini MCCCXLVIII, condo testamentum meum in hunc modum. In primus
lego animam meam Deo et beatae Mariae, et omnibus Sanctis, et corpus
meum ad sepelliendum in capella Sancti Thomae Martiris in ecclesia
Sprotburgh cum meliori averio meo nomine principalis. Item lego
luminari circa corpus meum, die sepultarae
meae, viii torches cerae, una cum viii vestibus pro octo hominibus
illa portantibus. Item in distribucione pauperum die sepulturae meae
X quarteria frumenti.
Item in oblacionibus et convocacione amicorum, scilicet in esculentis
et
poculentis, die sepulturae meae et octava die XX sterlingorum. Item
quatuor
presbiteris ad celebrandum pro anima mea in ecclesia de Sprotburgh
primo anno XX marc. Item Fratribus Minoribus de Doncastre dimidium
marcae. Item Fratribus
Predicatoribus de Lincoln' dim' marc. Item fratribus de Tiklid dim.
marc. Item
Fratribus Carmel. Ebor. dim. marc. Item Johanni filio meo melius
jumentum
equicii mei post principale, cum pullano, unum lectum purpureum cum
tapetis, et
unum mazerium cum pede argenti. Item Dominae Johannae uxori ejusdem
Johannis filii mei unum firmaculum onheled. Item Margaretae filiae
meae tercium jumentum
melius equicii cum pullano. Item Johannae filiae meae quartum
jumentum melius
cum pullano, carrum meum cum harnes, et unum equum nigrum griseum in
illo
tractante, unum lectum de Inde cum tapetis, unum psalterium et unam
bibliotecam
novam. Item Isabellae filiae meae quintum melius jumentum cum pullano
et unum
album quylt. Item Agneti filiae meae sextum melius jumentum cum
pullano et
tercium lectum cum tapeto. Item Johanni et Willielmo filiis Johannis
filii mei
duos pullanos de duobus annis meliores de equicio meo. Item
Elizabethae
filiae Johannis filii mei ii vaccas cum vitulis et XX marcas quae sunt
in manibus
Johannis filii mei, pro diversis rebus per ipsum et uxorem suam emptis
de bonis
et catallis Domini mei defuncti. Item Agneti filiae Thomae filii mei
C s.
quos idem Johannes filius meus habuit de redditu meo apud Rodington de
termino
Paschae ultimo preterito. Item Domino Willielmo TRussebuot melius
octavum
jumentum cum pullano. Item Dominae Johannae uxori ejusdem Domini
Willielmi unum
cohopertorium de blueto furratum minuto veru et meliorem robam meam
nigram cum
mantello. Item Domino Willielmo Trussebuot XX s. Item Johannae
Basily de
Radolf unam robam mellet' cum mantello. Item Domino Willielmo
Deyncourt unum
anulum cum peridod imposito. Item Domino Johanni Deyncourt filiolo
meo septimum
jumentum melius cum pullano. Item Agneti filiae Thomae filii mei i
[one]
tapetum i [one] canevac' i [one] materaz ii [two] linthiamina. Item
Johannae de
Trnnhill terciam robam meam de brounemelly, duas vaccas cum vitulis, i
[one]
tapetum i [one] materaz, et ii [two] linthiamina. Item Elizabethae
filiae Domini
Adae de Newemarche moniali unum mantellum de brounemelly. Item
Johannae
uxori Willielmi Faukes robam yemalem. Item dominae Johannae
Anachoritae mantellum
ejusdem sectae. Item altari capellae Sancti Thomae in eccelesia de
Sprotburgh melius vestimentum meum integrum cum ii teuellis, unum
missale, alium
vestimentum pro diebus ferialibus, et minorem calicem. Item altari
Sancti Johannis
in eccelesia de Sprotburgh tercium vestimentum. Item Vicario de
Doncastre ii
d. Item cuilibet capellano interessenti ad dirige iiii d. Item fratri
Roberto
de Shefeld XL d. Item fratri Stephano de Doncastre XL d. Item
Johanni filio
Johannis filii mei XX s. Item Willielmo fratri suo XX s. Item
Magistro
Willielmo de Auston XX s. Item Hugoni de Sandale XX s. Item Willielmo
Gerard XX s.
Item Johanni Turnhill XX s. Item Johanni de Huton XX s. Item
Willielmo
Spincer X s. Item Willielmo Coco X s. Item Johanni Hare X s. Item
Ricardo
Colteman X s. Item Willielmo Sharpe X s. Item Willielmo Wodelward X
s. Item
Roberto de Floberton dim. marc. Item Johanni Broune dim. marc. Item
Thomae del
Stable dim. marc. Item Willielmo Soink dim. marc. Item Ricardo Hare
dim.
marc. Item Rogero Porter dim. marc. Item Elenae de Pilley X s. Item
Johanni
Wrboston iii s. Item Roberto Waferer iii s. Item Johanni pae de
coquina iii s.
Item Willielmo page de stabulo iii s. Item Johanni famulo Ricardi
Colmane
iii s. Item lego residuum omnium bonorum meorum non legatorum in
celebracione
missarum. Et ad istam executionem fideliter faciendam ordino et
constituo
executores meos, videlicet, Johannem filium meum et dominum Willielmum
Trussebut
et Brianum de Thornhill milites. Item lego C s. sterling fabricae
capellae
Sancti Thomae in eccelesia de Sprotburgh, secundum dispositionem
rectoris ejusdem
recipiendos annuatim de Hugone de Elmeshall videlicet XX s. Item lego
Hugoni
de Elmesale melius pullanum post pullanos legatos Johanni et Willielmo
filiis
Johannis filii mei. Item Herberto nuper servienti Domini mei defuncti
tunc
melius pullanum mei equicii. Item Willielmo Gerard duos boviculos
meliores.
Item Johannae uxori Willielmi Frankis unum pullanum femellum. Datum
apud
Emelay die et Anno Domini supradictis.


Memorandum quod Domina Isabella quae fuit uxor Domini Willielmi filii
Willielmi militis legavit post factionem et consingnacionem testamenti
sui ultimo
facti rectori ecclesiae de Emelay melius jumentum equicii sui cum
pullano nomine
principalis sui ibidem. Item legavit domino Johanni filio suo pelvem
argenteam meliorem, secundum melius vestimentum capallae suae et unum
calicem meliorem
et unum missale melius. Item Johannae uxori Willielmi Frankis unam
suem
secundum meliorem. Item Henrico Flysch iii s. Item Thomae Fysch iii
s. iiii d.
Item Johanni Ingland Vi d. Item Domino Johanni Capellano suo et
familiari
unum par semls unum chafnet et unum superpellicum. Item legavit
residuum omnium
bonorum suorum non legatorum in celebracione missarum secundum
ordinacionem
suam expressam executoribus in predicto testamento suo nominatis.


(1) Sir William Fitz William, Lord of Elmley and Sprotborough, and
lineal
ancestor of the present Earl Fitz William, to whose pedigree this will
makes
numerous and important additions, and affords much authentic
information relative
to the rank and wealth of this antient family at its peiod. The
testatrix was
one of the family of Deyncourt, and her name was not Maud, but
Isabel.--V.
Hunter's South Yorkshire, I. 336, and II. 93. ' - [ Tesatamenta Ebor.
Vol. I, Surtees Society, Pages 50-52, courtesy MichaelAnne Guido.
Ref. also to Baildon & the Baildons by William Paley Baildon, Chapter
Eleven - The Fitzwilliams of Emley and Sprotborough, page 355]




On May 29, 12:53�pm, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
John,

Can you please update me on the status of an earlier 19 Jun 2006 posting, which noted a PRO document that seemed to suggest that John FitzWilliam was not a son of Isabel Deincourt, but rather a stepson who would inherit only 'on default of a male heir' by William FitzWilliam and Isabel. The text was apparently translated from the Latin, and a different CPR translation quoted in the 19 Jun posting made no mention of the 'default of a male heir' language (but also did not indentify Isabel as John's mother, only William as the father) :

PRO website FILE - Licence - ref. WWM/D/26,27 - date: 27 Dec 1324
Contents : To William Fitzwilliam and Isabel, his wife, to levy a fine to Edmund Deyncourt. In the manor of Emeleye, held of the King, as of his manor of Wakefield; and his manor of Darthington, held of the King as of his Honour of Pontefract, as the King is informed by Inquisition made by Simon de Grymmesby, escheator for the counties of York, Westmoreland, Northumberland and Cumberland. To be to the use of William and Isabella. On default of a male heir, then to the use of John Fitzwilliam, and thereafter to specified uses. The consideration is to be 12 marks. At Nottingham, 27 December, 1324 Seal: Great Seal of King Edward II Obverse: King enthroned in majesty: open crown of three points fleury, sceptre ensigned with dove and branch. Throne of elaborate tabernacle work, with back, rising sides, and front pieces adorned with arcading. Foot board, or corbel, ornamented with foliage and rings. Under foot, two small lions couchant guardant; and, at each side of the throne, lion leaping up towards the king. ...ANGLIE DOMINUS H...NIE DUX AQUITANIE Reverse: Equestrian, King on horse to right, in haubert of chain mail with crown, surcoat, spur, broad sword elevated and shield or arms of England. Bardings of neck and flank of horse charged with same arms reversed. ...WARDUS DEI GRATIA REX ANGLIE DNS H... Round, red wax.
Were John Isabel's stepson with his inheritance being held by agreement, any later references to Isabel as John's mother (such your last post) might simply reflect that John inherited Isabel's property 'as if' she was his actual mother without going into a longer explanation. Another later document identifying Isabel as his mother - no doubt previously posted - is :

PRO website FILE - A note of bequests and gifts - ref. WWM/D/37 - date: c.. 1349
Contents : Made by Sir John Fitzwilliam 'in the time of the pestilence', to Lady Joan [Reresby], his wife, Lady Isabel, his mother, and John, his son, and containing a summary of his possessions in Plumbtre, Sprotburgh and Emelie.
Has the 27 Dec 1324 document (perhaps based on a better translation) now been found to be consistent with the 'Lady Isabel his mother' documents?

Terry Booth
Chicago



----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: Sir John FitzWilliam, son of Isabel Deincourt

Tuesday, 22 May, 2007

Dear Rosie, MichaelAnne, Doug, Nat, Brendan, et al.,

    Harking back to past discussions concerning Sir William
FitzWilliam of Sprotborough and Emley, Yorks. (d. aft 4 Mar
1338/9) and his issue, as I recall it has been all but proven
that the daughters of Sir William (e.g., Margaret, wife of Henry
de Pierrepont, and Joan, wife of Sir Brian de Thornhill) were
his issue by Isabel Deincourt, his (apparent) 2nd wife.  Based
largely on her will dated 25 July 1348, it also appeared that
Sir John FitzWilliam, eldest surviving son and heir of Sir
William, was her son as well [she made a bequest to
"Johanni filio meo", among others], but I recall there had
remained a doubt in some corners.

    An otherwise obscure record concerning lands in Dalton juxta
Thribergh, Yorks. serves to cement the relationship.  In
Isabel's will she calls John her son; in this demise by John
FitzWilliam dated 29 May 1348 - obviously during Isabel
Deincourt's lifetime - she is called "Isabella, the grantor's
mother".

    ' 1348.   Demise by John son of Sir William, Knt. Knt.,
     29 May.  Knt., to Robt. Loveday of Dalton of one messuage
              1 1/2 oxgang, a plot called Molde Riddyng', and
     half an assart called the Newebrekk', which as appears
     by inspection of the grantors court rolls of Dalton, the
     said Robt. holds by demise of Isabella, the grantor's
     mother, for her life for 24s. 6d. rent; for 40 years
     after her death at the same rent.
     Witnesses: - Sir Thos. Clarell, Ralf de Rerisby, John
     del Hill of Dalton, Adam Gamell, Wm. Mauger, Ric. son
     of Nicholas de Ravenfeld, John de Blida, clerk.
     Sprotburgh, Thursday, Ascension Day, 1348. [B. 86.]' [1]

    The Deincourt ancestry of the later FitzWilliams of
Sprotborough, and of the descendants of the FitzWilliam
daughters, is certain.  The matter of the maternal ancestry
of Isabel Deincourt (possibly not via de Mohun) still deserves
further study.

    Cheers,

                          John *

NOTES

[1] Alfred S. Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds, YAJ XII:239-240.

* John P. Ravilious

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