Fw: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 mai 2007 06:48:42

I received this message before I went to hospital and I do not know where I stand. Are Ermesinde and Stephanie sisters? And Adalbert was he both Count of Longwy and Duke of Upper-Lorraine?
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:16 AM
Subject: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine


Leo:



I note that you have in your genie dB Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 5&tree=LEO) with daughters Ermesinde de Longwy & Stephanie (de Longwy), both of whom had progeny (and are in fact my, and no doubt hundreds of thousands of others, ancestors).



Wikipedia has the following article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert%2 ... f_Lorraine) re: Adalbert"



Adalbert has erroneously been called the count of Longwy and been named as father-in-law of William VII of Aquitaine and William I, Count of Burgundy. In fact, he was neither. Both errors date only from the 1960s. source: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700 by Frederick Lewis Weis, Line 144-22"



My copy of AR only has six persons detailed in line 144, so I'm dubious about the above reference.



In the world of soc.genealogy.medieval, is there agreement that Adalbert was NOT both Comte de Longwy and Duke of Upper-Lorraine" Or is the Wikipedia comment news to you, me and the rest of the world?



Thank you much for all your fine work being available on the Internet. I'm indebted to your years of hard work.

taf

Re: Fw: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine

Legg inn av taf » 20 mai 2007 23:21:57

On May 19, 10:48 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au>
wrote:
I received this message before I went to hospital and I do not know where I stand. Are Ermesinde and Stephanie sisters? And Adalbert was he both Count of Longwy and Duke of Upper-Lorraine?


Szabolcs de Vajay wrote an article in the 1960s, in which he 'showed'
that both Stephanie and Ermesinde had names typical of the Med coastal
area, yet documents referred to them as being of Lorraine derivation.
He concluded that it was probably more than coincidence that both of
these women would have southern names and northern derivations and
given that both also named a daughter Clemence, they were likely
siblings, children of Adelbert by a daughter of the Counts of
Barcelona.

Then in 2000, he published a brief note in which he admitted that he
had misinterpreted the sources, and that there is no evidence to
suggest that either had a connection to Lorraine. Further, as this was
central to the argument making them siblings, this too falls apart.
Now all that remains is their southern names, and the fact that they
both named a daughter Clemencia. That is hardly sufficient to safely
conclude that they were siblings.

taf

Peter Stewart

Re: Fw: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 mai 2007 07:21:52

On May 21, 8:21 am, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On May 19, 10:48 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au
wrote:

I received this message before I went to hospital and I do not know where I stand. Are Ermesinde and Stephanie sisters? And Adalbert was he both Count of Longwy and Duke of Upper-Lorraine?

Szabolcs de Vajay wrote an article in the 1960s, in which he 'showed'
that both Stephanie and Ermesinde had names typical of the Med coastal
area, yet documents referred to them as being of Lorraine derivation.
He concluded that it was probably more than coincidence that both of
these women would have southern names and northern derivations and
given that both also named a daughter Clemence, they were likely
siblings, children of Adelbert by a daughter of the Counts of
Barcelona.

Then in 2000, he published a brief note in which he admitted that he
had misinterpreted the sources, and that there is no evidence to
suggest that either had a connection to Lorraine. Further, as this was
central to the argument making them siblings, this too falls apart.
Now all that remains is their southern names, and the fact that they
both named a daughter Clemencia. That is hardly sufficient to safely
conclude that they were siblings.

Indeed, especially since their child-bearing years were several
decades apart.

The name Clemencia may not indicate any particular blood relationship
in the case of Ermesinde's daughter - the girl was very likely born
soon after Pope Clement II had crowned her father's sister empress, in
December 1046, and she might well have been named in his honour rather
than after another female in either parent's family.

Stephanie's daughter Clemencia was born around thirty years later, and
her name quite plausibly did come from a southern, perhaps Catalan,
family connection as she had siblings named Sibilla and Raimond.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: Fw: Adalbert Comte de Longwy, Duke of Upper-Lorraine

Legg inn av taf » 21 mai 2007 23:49:28

On May 21, 3:00 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 05/20/07 15:25:47 Pacific Standard Time, farme...@interfold.com writes:
Then in 2000, he published a brief note in which he admitted that he
had misinterpreted the sources, and that there is no evidence to
suggest that either had a connection to Lorraine.
At first I simply placed a {{fact}} tag in the article for Adalbert. But then I reviewed what AR8 says about Stepanie and quoted and cited the full conflict.

Todd, if you could give a citation to where he retracts his identification of Stephanies' parents I'll update the Wikipedia article with that as well.

Szabolcs de Vajay, "Parlons encore d'Etiennette" in Prosopographica et
Genealogica, vol.3, Onomastioque et Parente dans l'Occident medieval,
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan and C. Settipani, eds. (2000), pp. 2-6.

While you are at it, how about putting this in (and taking my name out
of) the William I, Count of Burgundy article.

taf

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