Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 617-620 (sub Talbot) has an account
of the life of Sir Gilbert Talbot, K.G., 5th Lord Talbot, who died at
the siege of Rouen in 1418.
Sir Gilbert Talbot is known to have married (1st) Joan of Gloucester,
a granddaughter of King Edward III of England. The following
information is provided regarding this marriage by Complete Peerage:
"He was betrothed, about 20 May 1392, to Joan, 2nd daughter and
coheiress of Thomas (of Woodstock), Duke of Gloucester (6th and
youngest son of Edward III), by Eleanor, elder daughter and coheiress
of Humphrey (de Bohun), 6th Earl of Hereford, 5th Earl of Essex, and
2nd Earl of Northampton, Constable of England. She died s.p. 16
August 1400, apparently before the marriage was consumated, aged about
16." Footnote b on pg. 619 adds the following comment: "She is,
however, described as 'Gilbert's late wife' in a bill of the
Treasurer, dated 22 March 1400/1."
Footnote "n" on page 618 further explains that Gilbert and Joan were
betrothed about 20 May 1392, "when Sir Richard Talbot and Ankaret, his
wife, gave the manor of Lydney [Gloucestershire] aforesaid to Joan,
daughter of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester, to hold to the said John and
the heirs of her body to be begotten by Gilbert, eldest son of the
said Richard (Cal. Close Rolls, 1399-1402, pg. 261; Gloucestershire
Inq. p.m., 1359-1413, pg. 225).
Actually Gilbert and Joan was betrothed before 10 November 1389, as
indicated by an inquisition dated 1392 involving a debt of Gilbert's
father, Sir Richard Talbot, Knt., 4th Lord Talbot. Also, as we can
see below, Joan was described as Gilbert's wife as early as 1392, not
just in 1401.
Source: Angela Conyers, Wiltshire Extents for Debts Edward I-Elizabeth
I (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 28) (1973): 34-35:
"RICHARD TALBOT, KNIGHT, OF HYRCHENFELD
20 Jan. 15 Richard II [1392]. Capias returnable on the morrow of St.
Gregory next [13 March], sued out by William Heron, knight, and John
Trygge. citizen and fishmonger of London, to whom Richard acknowledged
5,000 marks on 17 July last, before John Hale, mayor of the Staple of
Westminster, payable at Christmas then next. Like writs to the
sheriffs of Glos., Hants., Oxon., Berks., and Herefs. Endorsed:
Richard has not been found.
Wed. before St. Gregory 15 Richard II [6 March 1392]. Inquisition at
Hyswyndon before Robert Dynley by John Palmere, Thomas Canynges, John
Ferour, James Gore, Sampson Horput, William Kene, Robert Perham,
Walter Gylemyn, Robert Rademore, William Shigtman, William Vitel, and
John Debenham.
No lands in Wiltshire, as at or about Michaelmas 13 Richard II [10
November 1389] Richard [Talbot] granted by charter all his lands to
William Spark and John Hunt to hold in fee. By this enfeofment
William and John were seised at Martinmas of all lands and held them
to the use of Richard's son and heir, Gilbert, his wife, Joan, and
Thomas, duke of Gloucester. No goods in Wiltshire. C 131/42 no. 3."
END OF QUOTE.
An abstract of the above item but not the accompanying inquisition can
be found online in the National Archives catalogue. For interest's
sake, I've copied the catalogue abstract below.
Given the date of the 1389 enfeoffment of lands, it would appear that
Sir Gilbert Talbot and Joan of Gloucester were betrothed to marry at
the respective ages of six and four years. While such an agreement
may shock our modern sensibilities, a betrothal at such an early age
was permitted in medieval times.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue (http://
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
C 131/42/3
Debtor: Richard Talbot, lord of Archenfield [and Blakemere, Webtree
Hundred, Herefords]
Creditor: William Heron, knight, and John Trygge, citizen and
fishmonger of London.
Amount: 5000m.
Before whom: John Hadley, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 17/07/1391
First term: 25/12/1391
Last term: 25/12/1391
Writ to: Sheriff of Hants. [and Glos., Herefords., Wilts., Salop.,
Oxon., and Berks.]
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: "I Robert Cholmele, Sheriff" reply that Richard Talbot
was not found in the bailiwick. He has extended his lands and
tenements which include the manor of Chalghton, and delivered them to
the creditors.
Covering dates 1392 Jan 20.
Another C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Gilbert Talbot and J
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Another C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Gilbert Talbot a
Dear Newsgroup ~
I should have better labelled my previous post:
"Another C.P. Addition: Betrothal date of Gilbert Talbot and Joan of
Gloucester"
The uncertainty of Complete Peerage as to whether or not the marriage
of Gilbert and Joan was ever consumated should not depend on the
interpretation of the record dated 1401 cited by Complete Peerage in
which Joan was called Gilbert's "late wife." Betrothed women in the
medieval period whose marriage was not yet consumated could be and
were addressed as the wife of their prospective groom. An instance of
just such a case is the record which I cited in my previous post in
which Joan is styled Gilbert's wife as early as 1392. Joan was only
seven years old in 1392.
Given that Joan was 15 years old at the time of her death in 1400, and
given that child marriages in this period were usually consumated when
the bride was 13 or 14, it makes it highly likely that the marriage of
Gilbert and Joan was consumated by the time that Joan died in 1400.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I should have better labelled my previous post:
"Another C.P. Addition: Betrothal date of Gilbert Talbot and Joan of
Gloucester"
The uncertainty of Complete Peerage as to whether or not the marriage
of Gilbert and Joan was ever consumated should not depend on the
interpretation of the record dated 1401 cited by Complete Peerage in
which Joan was called Gilbert's "late wife." Betrothed women in the
medieval period whose marriage was not yet consumated could be and
were addressed as the wife of their prospective groom. An instance of
just such a case is the record which I cited in my previous post in
which Joan is styled Gilbert's wife as early as 1392. Joan was only
seven years old in 1392.
Given that Joan was 15 years old at the time of her death in 1400, and
given that child marriages in this period were usually consumated when
the bride was 13 or 14, it makes it highly likely that the marriage of
Gilbert and Joan was consumated by the time that Joan died in 1400.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
WJhonson
Re: Another C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Gilbert Talbot a
<<In a message dated 05/17/07 08:50:56 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
He was betrothed, about 20 May 1392, to Joan, 2nd daughter and
coheiress of Thomas (of Woodstock), Duke of Gloucester (6th and
youngest son of Edward III), >>
Why would Joan be coheiress to her father ? He was murdered 15 Sep 1397 and his heir Humphrey, Earl of Buckingham died in 1399. Wouldn't Joan and her three sisters be co-heirs of their brother Humphrey ?
Will Johnson
He was betrothed, about 20 May 1392, to Joan, 2nd daughter and
coheiress of Thomas (of Woodstock), Duke of Gloucester (6th and
youngest son of Edward III), >>
Why would Joan be coheiress to her father ? He was murdered 15 Sep 1397 and his heir Humphrey, Earl of Buckingham died in 1399. Wouldn't Joan and her three sisters be co-heirs of their brother Humphrey ?
Will Johnson
-
WJhonson
Re: Another C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Gilbert Talbot a
<<In a message dated 05/17/07 08:50:56 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
"He was betrothed, about 20 May 1392, to Joan, 2nd daughter and
coheiress of Thomas (of Woodstock), Duke of Gloucester (6th and
youngest son of Edward III), >>
Seventh son.
Edward, William, Lionel, John, Edmund, another William, and then Thomas
Will Johnson
"He was betrothed, about 20 May 1392, to Joan, 2nd daughter and
coheiress of Thomas (of Woodstock), Duke of Gloucester (6th and
youngest son of Edward III), >>
Seventh son.
Edward, William, Lionel, John, Edmund, another William, and then Thomas
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Another C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Gilbert Talbot a
Dear Newsgroup ~
In the recent discussion about the contracted marriage of Gilbert
Talbot, K.G., 5th Lord Talbot, and Joan of Gloucester (granddaughter
of King Edward III of England), I stated that it was highly likely
that their marriage which was contracted in early childhood was
probably consumated before Joan of Gloucester died in 1400 at age 15.
I had the opportunity yesterday to look at Hugh Talbot's interresting
book, English Achilles, published in 1981. The book largely concerns
the life history of Gilbert Talbot's famous younger brother, John
Talbot, K.G., 1st Earl of Shrewsbury. However, I find on page 23 that
Mr. Talbot states that Gilbert Talbot's wife, Joan of Gloucester, died
in childbirth.
For a snippet view of Mr. Talbot's statement, see the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6hIaAA ... s=1#search
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On May 17, 12:30 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< I should have better labelled my previous post:
<
< "Another C.P. Addition: Betrothal date
ofGilbertTalbotandJoanofGloucester"
<
< The uncertainty of Complete Peerage as to whether or not the
marriage
< ofGilbertandJoanwas ever consumated should not depend on the
< interpretation of the record dated 1401 cited by Complete Peerage in
< whichJoanwas calledGilbert's"late wife." Betrothed women in the
< medieval period whose marriage was not yet consumated could be and
< were addressed as the wife of their prospective groom. An instance
of
< just such a case is the record which I cited in my previous post in
< whichJoanis styledGilbert'swife as early as 1392. Joanwas only
< seven years old in 1392.
<
< Given thatJoanwas 15 years old at the time of her death in 1400, and
< given that child marriages in this period were usually consumated
when
< the bride was 13 or 14, it makes it highly likely that the marriage
ofGilbert
< and Joan was consumated by the time thatJoandied in 1400.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In the recent discussion about the contracted marriage of Gilbert
Talbot, K.G., 5th Lord Talbot, and Joan of Gloucester (granddaughter
of King Edward III of England), I stated that it was highly likely
that their marriage which was contracted in early childhood was
probably consumated before Joan of Gloucester died in 1400 at age 15.
I had the opportunity yesterday to look at Hugh Talbot's interresting
book, English Achilles, published in 1981. The book largely concerns
the life history of Gilbert Talbot's famous younger brother, John
Talbot, K.G., 1st Earl of Shrewsbury. However, I find on page 23 that
Mr. Talbot states that Gilbert Talbot's wife, Joan of Gloucester, died
in childbirth.
For a snippet view of Mr. Talbot's statement, see the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6hIaAA ... s=1#search
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On May 17, 12:30 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< I should have better labelled my previous post:
<
< "Another C.P. Addition: Betrothal date
ofGilbertTalbotandJoanofGloucester"
<
< The uncertainty of Complete Peerage as to whether or not the
marriage
< ofGilbertandJoanwas ever consumated should not depend on the
< interpretation of the record dated 1401 cited by Complete Peerage in
< whichJoanwas calledGilbert's"late wife." Betrothed women in the
< medieval period whose marriage was not yet consumated could be and
< were addressed as the wife of their prospective groom. An instance
of
< just such a case is the record which I cited in my previous post in
< whichJoanis styledGilbert'swife as early as 1392. Joanwas only
< seven years old in 1392.
<
< Given thatJoanwas 15 years old at the time of her death in 1400, and
< given that child marriages in this period were usually consumated
when
< the bride was 13 or 14, it makes it highly likely that the marriage
ofGilbert
< and Joan was consumated by the time thatJoandied in 1400.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah