C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler,

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Douglas Richardson

C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler,

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 mai 2007 17:59:29

Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2005, I posted a record here on the newsgroup which indicated
that Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley, was kinswoman
of John Wheathampstead (died 1465), Abbot of St. Albans. For a copy
of my earlier post, please see further below.

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 419-421, provides no information
regarding the maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor
any statement regarding her parentage. It only notes that she was
previously the wife of John Hende, a wealthy merchant of London:

"He [Ralph] married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of
John Hende;
she died 28 August 1462."

Since my initial post, I've since learned that Lady Sudeley's
parentage has been in print since at least 1838, which identification
was evidently overlooked by Complete Peerage. In the "Additions fo
Dugdale's Baronage" published in Collectanea Topographica et
Genealogica, Vol. 5 (1838), pp. 9, the following information is
provided:

"This Ralph [Boteler] being a Knight (copy from line 4, p. 598b, to
"Com. Warr." incl. in line 19, p. 597, and then say,) - Altho' he left
no issue living at the time of his death, yet it appears that he was
twice married, first to Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Norbury, Knt.
sometime Treasurer of England, by whom he had two sons, Ralph, who
died young, and Sir Thomas Boteler, Knt., who died issueless during
his father's lifetime; and 2dly to Alice, daughter of John Lord
Deincourt, and widow of Wm. Lord Lovell, by whom he had no issue."

A footnote gives the source of Ralph Boteler's marriage to Elizabeth
Norbury as "Ex. Coll. R. Glover ut supra." We see above that Ralph
Boterler and Elizabeth Norbury are assigned two sons, Ralph, who died
young, and Sir Thomas. Only the younger of these two sons is
mentioned by Complete Peerage.

The author of the "Additions fo Dugdale's Baronage" provides further
information regarding the marriage of Sir Ralph Boteler and Elizabeth
Norbury's son, Sir Thomas Boteler:

"His son Sir Thomas appears to have married Eleanor, daughter of the
renowned Lord Talbot, the first Earl of Shrewsbury - she survived her
husband, and was the lady to whom Richard the Third pretended that his
brother King Edward the 4th had been actually married long before, and
at the time that he contracted himself to the Lady Eliz. Grey, and
upon which pretence he urged the bastardy of Edward's children. It is
true that the marriage of Lady Elizabeth Grey took place in the
lifetime of Lady Eleanor Boteler, but it is remarkable that the eldest
of Edward's children was not born till two years after the Lady
Eleanor's death, which happened in the 8th year of King Edward."

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 422 correctly identifies Eleanor,
wife of Sir Thomas Boteler, as the "daughter of Sir John Talbot," but
no source is given for this marriage, nor is Sir John Talbot
identified as the man who was the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury. Eleanor,
however, is specifically called "daughter of John Earl of Salop' and
of Margaret his wife" in a contemporary document dated 1453, which
record I posted earlier on the newsgroup [Reference: A2A Catalogue,
Warwickshire County Record Office: Holbech of Farnborough, Reference:
L1/79].

It is certainly odd that Complete Peerage should have overlooked the
parentage of Sir Ralph Boteler's wife, Elizabeth Norbury, especially
since the author of the Sudeley account indicates in his notes that he
actually saw the material presented in Collectanea Topographica et
Genealogica [see, for instance, C.P. 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 420, footnote
j]. As with Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, this
is yet another instance of correct information which appeared in print
long ago, which was subsequently forgotten, overlooked, or
deliberately suppressed by later historians and genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF EARLIER POST dated 22 June 2005

From: "Douglas Richardson royalances...@msn.com"
<royalances...@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord
Sudeley
Date: 22 Jun 2005 10:19:44 -0700

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 419-421 has a good account of the
life history of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley (died 1473).
Regarding his first marriage, the following information is provided:

"He married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of John
Hende;
she died 28 August 1462."

As we can see, Complete Peerage provides no information regarding the
maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor any statement
regarding her parentage.

A clue to Lady Sudeley's identity, however, is found in the register
of John Wheathampstead (died 1465), Abbot of St. Albans, a transcript
of which was published back in 1872. The abbot's register contains a
series of documents dated 1460 relating the abbot's dealings with Sir
Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley, regarding the acquisition of the
reversion of the manor of More (in Rickmansworth), Hertfordshire.

These documents indicate that the abbot determined to write to the
Lady Sudeley, his kinswoman, and obtain her assistance towards gaining
his object:

"Inter quas vias, modos, et media, dum revolveret haec et illa, ac
alia varia, demum supposuit unum esse aptius, immo, aptissimum, ad
suum expediendium negotium, in opinione sua; scribere, scilicet,
litteras placibiles et persuasorias illustri Dominae, Dominae
Elizabeth, dicti Domini conjugi, suae consanguinae ..." [Reference:
Riley, Chronica Monasterii S. Albani 1: Registrum Abbatiae Johannis
Whethamstede (Rolls
Ser. 28) (1872): 357-367].

Besides showing that Elizabeth Boteler was kinswoman of John
Wheathampstead, Abbot of St. Albans, the documents confirm that Sir
Ralph Boteler and his wife, Elizabeth's only son and heir apparent,
Sir Thomas, was dead in 1460. Eventually Sir Ralph Boteler sold the
reversion of the manor of More to the Abbot for 3,000 marks, and the
prayers of the Convent for the souls of himself, his wife, and their
deceased son, Thomas. The Abbot obtained a license from King Henry VI
to hold the reversion on 25 March 1460.

This agrees well with an earlier post of mine of various Boteler
documents from the A2A catalogue, one of which shows that Sir Ralph
Boteler quitclaimed property to his son, Thomas' widow, Eleanor
Talbot, on 15 January 1460. In the the A2A document, Sir Ralph does
not indicate that his son, Thomas, was knighted, which fact is
indicated in the Wheathampstead documents. The fact that Thomas
Boteler was knighted is also overlooked by Complete Peerage.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

WJhonson

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 02:20:23

Is this the same John Norbury "sometime Treasurer" who was also "esquire of Henry Duke of Lancaster in 1399" and who died in 1414, husband of Elizabeth Boteler d 1464 ?

wjhonson

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 mai 2007 02:48:13

Then further if Elizabeth Norbury is to be the daughter of John
Norbury, Treasurer of the Exchequer, she must be also the daughter of
this first wife Petronilla, rather than by his next wife Elizabeth
Boteler.

Otherwise, when Elizabeth Norbury marries Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley,
she would be marrying her uncle.

So if this is all true, we should find documents of Nicholas Usk with
his new connections prominently figured I would think.

And who is Petronilla?

Will Johnson

taf

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av taf » 09 mai 2007 02:55:06

On May 8, 6:48 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Then further if Elizabeth Norbury is to be the daughter of John
Norbury, Treasurer of the Exchequer, she must be also the daughter of
this first wife Petronilla, rather than by his next wife Elizabeth
Boteler.

Otherwise, when Elizabeth Norbury marries Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley,
she would be marrying her uncle.

Before we run away with this, let's keep in mind that the source for
this is "from the collection of R. Glover". Who knows what kind of
record that would represent. It could just as well be is
misunderstood or manipulated version of the marriage you mention (say,
a confused late visitation or a 17th century concoction).

taf

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 mai 2007 04:00:45

On 8 Mai, 17:59, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2005, I posted a record here on the newsgroup which indicated
that Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley, was kinswoman
of John Wheathampstead (died 1465), Abbot of St. Albans.

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 419-421, provides no information
regarding the maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor
any statement regarding her parentage. It only notes that she was
previously the wife of John Hende, a wealthy merchant of London:

"He [Ralph] married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of
John Hende;
she died 28 August 1462."

Since my initial post, I've since learned that Lady Sudeley's
parentage has been in print since at least 1838, which identification
was evidently overlooked by Complete Peerage.

Or rejected as unreliable or incorrect.

In the "Additions fo
Dugdale's Baronage" published in Collectanea Topographica et
Genealogica, Vol. 5 (1838), pp. 9, the following information is
provided:

"This Ralph [Boteler] being a Knight (copy from line 4, p. 598b, to
"Com. Warr." incl. in line 19, p. 597, and then say,) - Altho' he left
no issue living at the time of his death, yet it appears that he was
twice married, first to Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Norbury, Knt.
sometime Treasurer of England, by whom he had two sons, Ralph, who
died young, and Sir Thomas Boteler, Knt., who died issueless during
his father's lifetime; and 2dly to Alice, daughter of John Lord
Deincourt, and widow of Wm. Lord Lovell, by whom he had no issue."

A footnote gives the source of Ralph Boteler's marriage to Elizabeth
Norbury as "Ex. Coll. R. Glover ut supra."

As taf has noted, what is the reliability of this curiously non-
specific source?

In their HoP article on John Norbury, Roskell et al state that only
one daughter of his is known: Joan, by the first marriage to
Petronilla. She married firstly Nicholas Usk, treasurer to the
household of John of Gaunt, and secondly to William Parker of London,
MP (died 1403); she died not long afterwards (1404), whilst in
negotiations to marry Richard, Lord St Maur.

As Will has also detailed, Norbury did have a link with the Butlers of
Sudeley: his second wife, Elizabeth, whom he married "by about 1410"
to Elizabeth (d 1465), daughter of Sir Thomas Butler of Sudeley, MP
and widow of William, Lord Heron (d 1404); she married thirdly Sir
John Montgomery, MP. Norbury's second wife was thus sister to Ralph
Butler, Lord Sudeley.

Conversely, ODNB in its article on John Hende states that his third
wife, Elizabeth, who he married by 1407, was "perhaps daughter of Sir
John Norbury", but it is impossible to tell the source for this, given
the jumble of references listed at the foot of the article.

None of this, of course, reveals any further information about the
relationship with John Wheathampstead.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 mai 2007 04:13:03

On 9 Mai, 02:55, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On May 8, 6:48 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Then further if Elizabeth Norbury is to be the daughter of John
Norbury, Treasurer of the Exchequer, she must be also the daughter of
this first wife Petronilla, rather than by his next wife Elizabeth
Boteler.

Otherwise, when Elizabeth Norbury marries Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley,
she would be marrying her uncle.

Before we run away with this, let's keep in mind that the source for
this is "from the collection of R. Glover". Who knows what kind of
record that would represent. It could just as well be is
misunderstood or manipulated version of the marriage you mention (say,
a confused late visitation or a 17th century concoction).

taf

I see this was gone over here in considerable detail about two years
ago - see the archives:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.ge ... m=1&hl=en#

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 mai 2007 22:28:16

On 8 Mai, 17:59, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2005, I posted a record here on the newsgroup which indicated
that Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley, was kinswoman
of John Wheathampstead (died 1465), Abbot of St. Albans. For a copy
of my earlier post, please see further below.

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 419-421, provides no information
regarding the maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor
any statement regarding her parentage. It only notes that she was
previously the wife of John Hende, a wealthy merchant of London:

"He [Ralph] married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of
John Hende;
she died 28 August 1462."

Since my initial post, I've since learned that Lady Sudeley's
parentage has been in print since at least 1838, which identification
was evidently overlooked by Complete Peerage. In the "Additions fo
Dugdale's Baronage" published in Collectanea Topographica et
Genealogica, Vol. 5 (1838), pp. 9, the following information is
provided:

"This Ralph [Boteler] being a Knight (copy from line 4, p. 598b, to
"Com. Warr." incl. in line 19, p. 597, and then say,) - Altho' he left
no issue living at the time of his death, yet it appears that he was
twice married, first to Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Norbury, Knt.
sometime Treasurer of England..."

NB John Norbury was only an esquire, not a knight; this error does not
inspire confidence in this source.

Additionally, the starting point for the reference to Dugdale's
Baronage should be to p 596b, not 598b. Furthermore, this alleged
"addition" does not appear in the list of errata which immediately
follows the Preface in the 1675 edition.

MA-R

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