Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6621319.stm
(4 May 2007)
DNA testing has uncovered British descendents of Native Americans
brought to the UK centuries ago as slaves, translators or tribal
representatives.
Genetic analysis turned up two white British women with a DNA
signature characteristic of American Indians.
An Oxford scientist said it was extremely unusual to find these DNA
lineages in Britons with no previous knowledge of Native American
ancestry.
Indigenous Americans were brought over to the UK as early as the
1500s.
Many were brought over as curiosities; but others travelled here in
delegations during the 18th Century to petition the British imperial
government over trade or protection from other tribes.
Experts say it is probable that some stayed in Britain and married
into local communities.
Doreen Isherwood, 64, from Putney, and Anne Hall, 53, of Huddersfield,
only found out about their New World heritage after paying for
commercial DNA ancestry tests.
Mrs Isherwood told BBC News: "I was expecting the results to say I
belonged to one of the common European tribes, but when I got them
back, my first thought was that they were a mistake.
"It rocked me completely. It made think: who am I?"
The chartered physiotherapist studied for a degree at the University
of North Carolina, but had no idea she possessed Native American
ancestors. She said she came from a long line of Lancashire cotton
weavers.
Mrs Isherwood added that she was "immensely proud" of her newfound
heritage, which has renewed a long-standing interest in Native
American culture.
Anne Hall, who works as a private educational tutor, commented: "I was
thrilled to bits. It was a very pleasant surprise. To have Native
American blood is very exotic."
She said she now aimed to investigate her family history in an attempt
to track down the source of her rare genetic lineage.
Mrs Isherwood says her American antecedent must have arrived in
Britain in the 18th or 17th Centuries. She has traced her maternal
ancestors back to 1798 and has found no sign of New World
progenitors.
The tests taken by both women were based on analysis of DNA inside the
"powerhouses" of our cells: the mitochondria.
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed down from mother to daughter more
or less unchanged; but changes, or mutations, accumulate in the DNA
sequence over successive generations.
Scientists can use these changes to classify mtDNAs into broad types
(called haplogroups) which, to some extent, reflect a person's
geographical origin.
Mrs Isherwood and Mrs Hall possessed haplogroups characteristic of the
indigenous people of the Americas, which are referred to as A and C.
"It's very unusual. Most of the people we test belong to one of the
European maternal clans," said Professor Bryan Sykes, whose company
Oxford Ancestors carried out the tests for Doreen and Anne.
Professor Sykes, also a professor of human genetics at the University
of Oxford, said: "There are matches between [Doreen and Anne] and
particular Native American tribes, but that doesn't necessarily mean
those are the tribes their ancestors came from."
This month marks the 400th anniversary of Jamestown, the first
permanent English-speaking settlement in North America.
Alden Vaughan, a professor emeritus at Columbia University, in New
York, has written a book on American Indians in Britain. He said
indigenous peoples from the New World began arriving in Britain as
early as the sixteenth century.
"It started earlier than Jamestown. A number were brought over through
the 1500s, mainly as curiosities," he told BBC News. Others were taken
to Britain to learn English and go back to the colonies as
translators.
"Sir Walter Raleigh brought back several individuals from the
Jamestown area and from the Orinoco valley. Pocahontas went to England
in 1616 and died there the next year.
"She was accompanied by several of her tribal associates. Some of them
stayed in England for several years. I don't know of any marriages or
even relationships between those women and Englishmen, but it is
certainly possible.
"Later in the 17th Century, Native American slaves were brought over.
I don't know much about them, because all the evidence I have are ads
in London newspapers for runaway bond-servants, described as being
Indians."
(4 May 2007)
DNA testing has uncovered British descendents of Native Americans
brought to the UK centuries ago as slaves, translators or tribal
representatives.
Genetic analysis turned up two white British women with a DNA
signature characteristic of American Indians.
An Oxford scientist said it was extremely unusual to find these DNA
lineages in Britons with no previous knowledge of Native American
ancestry.
Indigenous Americans were brought over to the UK as early as the
1500s.
Many were brought over as curiosities; but others travelled here in
delegations during the 18th Century to petition the British imperial
government over trade or protection from other tribes.
Experts say it is probable that some stayed in Britain and married
into local communities.
Doreen Isherwood, 64, from Putney, and Anne Hall, 53, of Huddersfield,
only found out about their New World heritage after paying for
commercial DNA ancestry tests.
Mrs Isherwood told BBC News: "I was expecting the results to say I
belonged to one of the common European tribes, but when I got them
back, my first thought was that they were a mistake.
"It rocked me completely. It made think: who am I?"
The chartered physiotherapist studied for a degree at the University
of North Carolina, but had no idea she possessed Native American
ancestors. She said she came from a long line of Lancashire cotton
weavers.
Mrs Isherwood added that she was "immensely proud" of her newfound
heritage, which has renewed a long-standing interest in Native
American culture.
Anne Hall, who works as a private educational tutor, commented: "I was
thrilled to bits. It was a very pleasant surprise. To have Native
American blood is very exotic."
She said she now aimed to investigate her family history in an attempt
to track down the source of her rare genetic lineage.
Mrs Isherwood says her American antecedent must have arrived in
Britain in the 18th or 17th Centuries. She has traced her maternal
ancestors back to 1798 and has found no sign of New World
progenitors.
The tests taken by both women were based on analysis of DNA inside the
"powerhouses" of our cells: the mitochondria.
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed down from mother to daughter more
or less unchanged; but changes, or mutations, accumulate in the DNA
sequence over successive generations.
Scientists can use these changes to classify mtDNAs into broad types
(called haplogroups) which, to some extent, reflect a person's
geographical origin.
Mrs Isherwood and Mrs Hall possessed haplogroups characteristic of the
indigenous people of the Americas, which are referred to as A and C.
"It's very unusual. Most of the people we test belong to one of the
European maternal clans," said Professor Bryan Sykes, whose company
Oxford Ancestors carried out the tests for Doreen and Anne.
Professor Sykes, also a professor of human genetics at the University
of Oxford, said: "There are matches between [Doreen and Anne] and
particular Native American tribes, but that doesn't necessarily mean
those are the tribes their ancestors came from."
This month marks the 400th anniversary of Jamestown, the first
permanent English-speaking settlement in North America.
Alden Vaughan, a professor emeritus at Columbia University, in New
York, has written a book on American Indians in Britain. He said
indigenous peoples from the New World began arriving in Britain as
early as the sixteenth century.
"It started earlier than Jamestown. A number were brought over through
the 1500s, mainly as curiosities," he told BBC News. Others were taken
to Britain to learn English and go back to the colonies as
translators.
"Sir Walter Raleigh brought back several individuals from the
Jamestown area and from the Orinoco valley. Pocahontas went to England
in 1616 and died there the next year.
"She was accompanied by several of her tribal associates. Some of them
stayed in England for several years. I don't know of any marriages or
even relationships between those women and Englishmen, but it is
certainly possible.
"Later in the 17th Century, Native American slaves were brought over.
I don't know much about them, because all the evidence I have are ads
in London newspapers for runaway bond-servants, described as being
Indians."
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On 4 Mai, 11:13, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6621319.stm
(4 May 2007)
DNA testing has uncovered British descendents of Native Americans
brought to the UK centuries ago as slaves, translators or tribal
representatives.
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
-
John Brandon
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 7, 9:08 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There was a Native American at Oxford University who wrote an essay in
Latin dated 1660. Also, as everyone probably knows, there was at
least one Native American man, Tisquantum (Squanto), who crossed the
Atlantic six times during his lifetime during the same general period.
And, on the other end of the spectrum, there were a number of Native
American performers who toured Europe during the late 19th Century
with the Wild West Shows; at least one of them died & was buried in
England (his remains were recovered & sent to his family a few years
ago). During the early negotiation period between England and the
Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy), there was an exchange of young
people, as was the custom between negotiating European nations. I have
not seen reports of how the Native people fared in England, but the
Haudenosaunee account is that the English youth were quite useless.
Finally, Native ambassadors from Roanoke were sent to England to learn
about English life (and capabilities); they returned to Roanoke
later. The English community there vanished, probably absorbed into
the Native villages. There are people today who claim descent from the
mixing of the Roanoke English & Native people who sheltered them. It
is probable that no one from this event returned to England, as the
colony was destroyed and its inhabitants had scattered by the time
English returned there. Bronwen Edwards
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
There was a Native American at Oxford University who wrote an essay in
Latin dated 1660. Also, as everyone probably knows, there was at
least one Native American man, Tisquantum (Squanto), who crossed the
Atlantic six times during his lifetime during the same general period.
And, on the other end of the spectrum, there were a number of Native
American performers who toured Europe during the late 19th Century
with the Wild West Shows; at least one of them died & was buried in
England (his remains were recovered & sent to his family a few years
ago). During the early negotiation period between England and the
Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy), there was an exchange of young
people, as was the custom between negotiating European nations. I have
not seen reports of how the Native people fared in England, but the
Haudenosaunee account is that the English youth were quite useless.
Finally, Native ambassadors from Roanoke were sent to England to learn
about English life (and capabilities); they returned to Roanoke
later. The English community there vanished, probably absorbed into
the Native villages. There are people today who claim descent from the
mixing of the Roanoke English & Native people who sheltered them. It
is probable that no one from this event returned to England, as the
colony was destroyed and its inhabitants had scattered by the time
English returned there. Bronwen Edwards
-
Jack Linthicum
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 7, 12:08 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 8:24 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
If it is an urban legend, it is one that no one ever passes on...it is
from an obscure reference that I found during intensive research in my
graduate student days. My dissertation was on Native American
literature in the broadest sense. After receiving my degree, I taught
Native American Studies for more than 25 years and retired about four
years ago. My papers are in storage and so it may be a short while
before I can find the cite. I only ran across the one reference -
which was quite old, possibly 18th or early 19th Century if I recall
correctly. As soon as I recover the information, I will pass it on to
you.
Best, Bronwen
On May 7, 12:08 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
If it is an urban legend, it is one that no one ever passes on...it is
from an obscure reference that I found during intensive research in my
graduate student days. My dissertation was on Native American
literature in the broadest sense. After receiving my degree, I taught
Native American Studies for more than 25 years and retired about four
years ago. My papers are in storage and so it may be a short while
before I can find the cite. I only ran across the one reference -
which was quite old, possibly 18th or early 19th Century if I recall
correctly. As soon as I recover the information, I will pass it on to
you.
Best, Bronwen
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 8:53 am, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
One other thing I forgot to mention: last night (Tuesday May
, an
episode of "Nova" appeared on PBS that dealt with archaeology at
Jamestown and adjacent areas. One of the findings was that Native
women actually lived in Jamestown households, suggesting marriage or ,
at least, cohabitation. Such households must also have produced
children in some cases (once the Jamestown residents became healthy
enough). It is likely that some Jamestown families or their remnants
returned to England. Bronwen
On May 9, 8:24 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
On May 7, 12:08 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
If it is an urban legend, it is one that no one ever passes on...it is
from an obscure reference that I found during intensive research in my
graduate student days. My dissertation was on Native American
literature in the broadest sense. After receiving my degree, I taught
Native American Studies for more than 25 years and retired about four
years ago. My papers are in storage and so it may be a short while
before I can find the cite. I only ran across the one reference -
which was quite old, possibly 18th or early 19th Century if I recall
correctly. As soon as I recover the information, I will pass it on to
you.
Best, Bronwen- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
One other thing I forgot to mention: last night (Tuesday May
episode of "Nova" appeared on PBS that dealt with archaeology at
Jamestown and adjacent areas. One of the findings was that Native
women actually lived in Jamestown households, suggesting marriage or ,
at least, cohabitation. Such households must also have produced
children in some cases (once the Jamestown residents became healthy
enough). It is likely that some Jamestown families or their remnants
returned to England. Bronwen
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 10:24 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
It's one of the peculiarities of American genealogy that white
Americans are so eager to claim Indian descent -- or that so many
American families have passed down some variation on the "Cherokee
princess" legend. My own family had a tale that we were of Native
American descent. I do think it's party psychological, a need to feel
that we have *inherited* this land, rather than having conquered it.
After having done indepth research of my own ancestry, I found no
documentation of any Native American ancestors, but I did find several
mixed-race African (or mulatto) ancestors, which my relatives had kept
sternly silent about!
wrote:
On May 7, 12:08 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
It's one of the peculiarities of American genealogy that white
Americans are so eager to claim Indian descent -- or that so many
American families have passed down some variation on the "Cherokee
princess" legend. My own family had a tale that we were of Native
American descent. I do think it's party psychological, a need to feel
that we have *inherited* this land, rather than having conquered it.
After having done indepth research of my own ancestry, I found no
documentation of any Native American ancestors, but I did find several
mixed-race African (or mulatto) ancestors, which my relatives had kept
sternly silent about!
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 10:44 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I would suppose that could be another interpretation of the new
archaeological evidence. However it does not seem that Native women
would have had much incentive to clean up after English men
(especially considering the English antipathy toward bathing at that
time) unless they were acting as spies for their people (which I
doubt). My interpretation would be that they were wives or concubines
of the men and, perhaps because of this state of affairs, were not
welcome at home. Indeed, the Algonkian word "squaw" comes to mind.
The original Native meaning was female genitalia. The term became
colloquial eventually, as it spead to other language groups, and took
on the meaning of "prostitute" or "an Indian woman who lives with a
white man". It is regarded as very insulting by modern Native women
and it is used in an insulting way by some whites in areas where there
is racism against Native Americans. Another thing that comes to mind
are the stories of saintly Native American women, such as Kateri
Tekakwitha, a Mohawk whose conversion to Christianity is celebrated by
the Catholic Church. The Church's version is that she was enlightened
and embraced the "true" religion when she became aware of it. The
Mohawk version, which I heard from traditional Mohawk people at
Akwesasne in northern New York, is that she was already alienated from
her people for some reason when the Jesuits came along and simply
moved to where she was welcome. She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English men during
that initial contact period. Best, Bronwen
Or that they were maids.
In a message dated 05/09/07 09:00:54 Pacific Standard Time, lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:
One of the findings was that Native
women actually lived in Jamestown households, suggesting marriage or ,
at least, cohabitation.
I would suppose that could be another interpretation of the new
archaeological evidence. However it does not seem that Native women
would have had much incentive to clean up after English men
(especially considering the English antipathy toward bathing at that
time) unless they were acting as spies for their people (which I
doubt). My interpretation would be that they were wives or concubines
of the men and, perhaps because of this state of affairs, were not
welcome at home. Indeed, the Algonkian word "squaw" comes to mind.
The original Native meaning was female genitalia. The term became
colloquial eventually, as it spead to other language groups, and took
on the meaning of "prostitute" or "an Indian woman who lives with a
white man". It is regarded as very insulting by modern Native women
and it is used in an insulting way by some whites in areas where there
is racism against Native Americans. Another thing that comes to mind
are the stories of saintly Native American women, such as Kateri
Tekakwitha, a Mohawk whose conversion to Christianity is celebrated by
the Catholic Church. The Church's version is that she was enlightened
and embraced the "true" religion when she became aware of it. The
Mohawk version, which I heard from traditional Mohawk people at
Akwesasne in northern New York, is that she was already alienated from
her people for some reason when the Jesuits came along and simply
moved to where she was welcome. She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English men during
that initial contact period. Best, Bronwen
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 8:24 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I think that the "high" status accorded Native American ancestry only
applies to individuals who do not look Native. I look almost exactly
like my full-blood Hopi father and have not found my Native ancestry
to be accorded any sort of high status. While I am proud to be Native,
I must say that I have also experienced a great deal of racist
behavior. One time when I was telling my students about some of the
kinds of things that happen on a daily basis (in some places where
Native people have a high profile and are not just an abstraction), a
blond girl raised her hand and said "I don't believe all that. It
never happened to me and I have Native ancestry." I think you will
find that "looks matters". Bronwen
On May 7, 12:08 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A lister has very kindly made the suggestion to me off-list that it
is
more likely these English people with Native American ancestry likely
derived it from ancestors who had returned to England from the
colonies, having picked up their own Native American ancestry out
there.
MA-R
Yep, one of my English friends from 1988/89, Sarah Melbourne from
Cleethorpes, said she had Native American ancestry and explained that
one of her ancestors had gone to North America and married a Native
(or part Native) woman. This had happened surprisingly recently, I
think--late 1700s or early 1800s.
It is almost a sign of achievement to claim American Indian ancestry,
supposed to make you a legitimate inhabiter of North America. Possibly
started by Will Rogers and perpetrated by a lot of pseudos.
I have some supposedly Seneca blood, but the tribes now require DNA
testing before you can make the claim and have it stick. Some say it
is the casinos, rich sources of income for people who were dirt poor
within 20 years ago.
I think that the "high" status accorded Native American ancestry only
applies to individuals who do not look Native. I look almost exactly
like my full-blood Hopi father and have not found my Native ancestry
to be accorded any sort of high status. While I am proud to be Native,
I must say that I have also experienced a great deal of racist
behavior. One time when I was telling my students about some of the
kinds of things that happen on a daily basis (in some places where
Native people have a high profile and are not just an abstraction), a
blond girl raised her hand and said "I don't believe all that. It
never happened to me and I have Native ancestry." I think you will
find that "looks matters". Bronwen
I would really like to know the name of the Oxford Latin student from
1660, sounds like an urban legend. And it doesn't seem to exist on the
Internet.
-
taf
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 9, 1:07 pm, Mississippie...@gmail.com wrote:
While I have seen this 'lingering collective victimizer's guilt'
explanation elsewhere as well remain unconvinced. Basically, many of
these Native American genealogical claims arose at a period when
Manifest Destiny was still the primary explanation for the national
history. They didn't feel guilty, not in the slightest. They were
instead fulfilling their destiny as the chosen people.
I think it has more to do with two functions. First, there is a
desire for demonstrable continuity - the same motivation that led the
17th century English nobility to trace to the Anglo-Saxons. It was
not because they felt guilty that their Norman ancestors had taken the
kingdom, but rather simply a desire to show that they represented the
ancients (or at least, more ancient than their neighbors). While this
comes out the same as the guilt explanation, in the form of a subtle
'inheritance', the motivation is entirely different - pride rather
than guilt is the driving force. There is also the desire for the
exotic, the same that led to many Medieval claims of muslim descent.
There is an aspect missing from this however - note that none of these
families claimed descent from African lines. This is because the two
groups are not viewed in the same manner. (This is even evident in the
two recent press releases by Sykes' group. About a month ago, he
reported discovering some Yorkshire [IIRC] men who, unbeknown to them,
had African male-line ancestry. The stories coyly avoided giving give
even the surname in question. However, this Native American ancestry
story names the subjects themselves. Whether this represents a bias
on the part of the subjects, of the researchers or of the press, it
shows that descent from one group is an interesting curiosity, while
descent from the other retains a degree of social stigma, real or
perceived.) That difference is largely built around the 'noble savage'
imagery of the Native American, such as popularized by Fenimore
Cooper. This mythos of the native roaming the hills in perfect harmony
with nature (and perhaps fighting the 'bad Indians' who were enemies
of the white man) makes them an ideal (idealized) ancestor, even if
that imagery is historically flawed and only possible due to distance
(spatial and/or temporal).
taf
It's one of the peculiarities of American genealogy that white
Americans are so eager to claim Indian descent -- or that so many
American families have passed down some variation on the "Cherokee
princess" legend. My own family had a tale that we were of Native
American descent. I do think it's party psychological, a need to feel
that we have *inherited* this land, rather than having conquered it.
While I have seen this 'lingering collective victimizer's guilt'
explanation elsewhere as well remain unconvinced. Basically, many of
these Native American genealogical claims arose at a period when
Manifest Destiny was still the primary explanation for the national
history. They didn't feel guilty, not in the slightest. They were
instead fulfilling their destiny as the chosen people.
I think it has more to do with two functions. First, there is a
desire for demonstrable continuity - the same motivation that led the
17th century English nobility to trace to the Anglo-Saxons. It was
not because they felt guilty that their Norman ancestors had taken the
kingdom, but rather simply a desire to show that they represented the
ancients (or at least, more ancient than their neighbors). While this
comes out the same as the guilt explanation, in the form of a subtle
'inheritance', the motivation is entirely different - pride rather
than guilt is the driving force. There is also the desire for the
exotic, the same that led to many Medieval claims of muslim descent.
There is an aspect missing from this however - note that none of these
families claimed descent from African lines. This is because the two
groups are not viewed in the same manner. (This is even evident in the
two recent press releases by Sykes' group. About a month ago, he
reported discovering some Yorkshire [IIRC] men who, unbeknown to them,
had African male-line ancestry. The stories coyly avoided giving give
even the surname in question. However, this Native American ancestry
story names the subjects themselves. Whether this represents a bias
on the part of the subjects, of the researchers or of the press, it
shows that descent from one group is an interesting curiosity, while
descent from the other retains a degree of social stigma, real or
perceived.) That difference is largely built around the 'noble savage'
imagery of the Native American, such as popularized by Fenimore
Cooper. This mythos of the native roaming the hills in perfect harmony
with nature (and perhaps fighting the 'bad Indians' who were enemies
of the white man) makes them an ideal (idealized) ancestor, even if
that imagery is historically flawed and only possible due to distance
(spatial and/or temporal).
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
On May 10, 10:46 am, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
I, and other Native people with whom I have discussed this phenomenon,
have found that the Native ancestor is usually female, unnamed, often
Cherokee, and almost always a "princess". The Cherokee part is
probably from the way in which many non-Native families showed up on
the Dawes Roll, claiming to be Cherokee, in order to get their 160
acres of Indian Territory on the Cherokee Strip.
A number of scholars have studied the ways in which people of Native
ancestry and people of African ancestry have been seen differently in
American society. There are several very good studies, such as "Red,
White and Black" by Jack Forbes. It is also interesting to look at the
historical interaction of the two groups which has ranged from the
assimilation of Africans into Native society (as with the Seminoles)
to the keeping of African slaves by Natives (as with the Cherokees
before Removal). Bronwen
On May 9, 1:07 pm, Mississippie...@gmail.com wrote:
It's one of the peculiarities of American genealogy that white
Americans are so eager to claim Indian descent -- or that so many
American families have passed down some variation on the "Cherokee
princess" legend. My own family had a tale that we were of Native
American descent. I do think it's party psychological, a need to feel
that we have *inherited* this land, rather than having conquered it.
While I have seen this 'lingering collective victimizer's guilt'
explanation elsewhere as well remain unconvinced. Basically, many of
these Native American genealogical claims arose at a period when
Manifest Destiny was still the primary explanation for the national
history. They didn't feel guilty, not in the slightest. They were
instead fulfilling their destiny as the chosen people.
I think it has more to do with two functions. First, there is a
desire for demonstrable continuity - the same motivation that led the
17th century English nobility to trace to the Anglo-Saxons. It was
not because they felt guilty that their Norman ancestors had taken the
kingdom, but rather simply a desire to show that they represented the
ancients (or at least, more ancient than their neighbors). While this
comes out the same as the guilt explanation, in the form of a subtle
'inheritance', the motivation is entirely different - pride rather
than guilt is the driving force. There is also the desire for the
exotic, the same that led to many Medieval claims of muslim descent.
There is an aspect missing from this however - note that none of these
families claimed descent from African lines. This is because the two
groups are not viewed in the same manner. (This is even evident in the
two recent press releases by Sykes' group. About a month ago, he
reported discovering some Yorkshire [IIRC] men who, unbeknown to them,
had African male-line ancestry. The stories coyly avoided giving give
even the surname in question. However, this Native American ancestry
story names the subjects themselves. Whether this represents a bias
on the part of the subjects, of the researchers or of the press, it
shows that descent from one group is an interesting curiosity, while
descent from the other retains a degree of social stigma, real or
perceived.) That difference is largely built around the 'noble savage'
imagery of the Native American, such as popularized by Fenimore
Cooper. This mythos of the native roaming the hills in perfect harmony
with nature (and perhaps fighting the 'bad Indians' who were enemies
of the white man) makes them an ideal (idealized) ancestor, even if
that imagery is historically flawed and only possible due to distance
(spatial and/or temporal).
taf
I, and other Native people with whom I have discussed this phenomenon,
have found that the Native ancestor is usually female, unnamed, often
Cherokee, and almost always a "princess". The Cherokee part is
probably from the way in which many non-Native families showed up on
the Dawes Roll, claiming to be Cherokee, in order to get their 160
acres of Indian Territory on the Cherokee Strip.
A number of scholars have studied the ways in which people of Native
ancestry and people of African ancestry have been seen differently in
American society. There are several very good studies, such as "Red,
White and Black" by Jack Forbes. It is also interesting to look at the
historical interaction of the two groups which has ranged from the
assimilation of Africans into Native society (as with the Seminoles)
to the keeping of African slaves by Natives (as with the Cherokees
before Removal). Bronwen
-
Ian Goddard
Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"
taf wrote:
<snip>
Actually the names in the Sykes group case weren't too hard to find.
Surfing the Sykes group site I found a reference to an anomalous result in
a family with the initial given in the report on the Beeb (without going
back and looking I can't remember it). The initial report went back to the
C18th. A quick search on IGI revealed a cluster of the same name with a
number of spelling variations going back somewhat earlier than the Yorks
family in the North Bucks/Beds area and the inevitable occurrence in London
(Clerkenwell IIRC). It would have been interesting to know if the Sykes
group have followed this line up.
--
Ian Goddard
Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk
On May 9, 1:07 pm, Mississippie...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
There is an aspect missing from this however - note that none of these
families claimed descent from African lines. This is because the two
groups are not viewed in the same manner. (This is even evident in the
two recent press releases by Sykes' group. About a month ago, he
reported discovering some Yorkshire [IIRC] men who, unbeknown to them,
had African male-line ancestry. The stories coyly avoided giving give
even the surname in question. However, this Native American ancestry
<snip>
taf
Actually the names in the Sykes group case weren't too hard to find.
Surfing the Sykes group site I found a reference to an anomalous result in
a family with the initial given in the report on the Beeb (without going
back and looking I can't remember it). The initial report went back to the
C18th. A quick search on IGI revealed a cluster of the same name with a
number of spelling variations going back somewhat earlier than the Yorks
family in the North Bucks/Beds area and the inevitable occurrence in London
(Clerkenwell IIRC). It would have been interesting to know if the Sykes
group have followed this line up.
--
Ian Goddard
Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk