Rosenberg and Orsini - Rosenberg

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Cesare Patrignani

Rosenberg and Orsini - Rosenberg

Legg inn av Cesare Patrignani » 02 mai 2007 21:51:53

Hello all in the group!
I would like to know if there is a link between the family of Rosenberg (in
E S Tafel 41 - Band XVI, I see that the last one of the family was Peter
Wok , Regiere des Hauses Rosenberg, born 1539, died 1611) and the family of
Orsini und Rosenberg (Fürst von Orsini und Rosenberg).
Thank you very much for the help.
Cesare Patrignani

Henry Soszynski

Re: Rosenberg and Orsini - Rosenberg

Legg inn av Henry Soszynski » 03 mai 2007 00:44:15

On Wed, 2 May 2007 22:51:53 +0200, "Cesare Patrignani"
<cepatri@tin.it> wrote:

Hello all in the group!
I would like to know if there is a link between the family of Rosenberg (in
E S Tafel 41 - Band XVI, I see that the last one of the family was Peter
Wok , Regiere des Hauses Rosenberg, born 1539, died 1611) and the family of
Orsini und Rosenberg (Fürst von Orsini und Rosenberg).
Thank you very much for the help.
Cesare Patrignani

Hello Cesare,

There does appear to be a common agnatic
descent of the two branches. The ancestor being either Vitek I von
Rosenberg +1194 or Vitko von Pürschitz, Burggraf von Glatz und von
Prachin, +1194. The Stoyan database then derives the vOuR from
Heinrich +1214, the younger son and the vR from Vitko von Plankenberg,
Preitz und Pribenitz fl.1244. The database unfortunately separates
Vitek and Vitko giving two separate descents, also Zawisch von
Falkenstein appears in both lines. So obviously there is some
confusion in the Stoyan database.
See
http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/ ... EX=I536525
for the senior line. The junior line has no wives listed, just a male
line, going as follows...
Vitek +1194
Heinrich +1214
Heinrich
Christoph+1246
Heinrich +1278
Herkules +1310
Hermann +1367
Herkules +1396
Wulfing +1420
Peter
Georg
Georg +1519
Maximilian +1550
Ulrich +1597
Andreas +1617
Johann Andreas 1600-1667, who seems to be the first to add the Orisini
surname to his own.


Cheers,
Henry

pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz

Re: Rosenberg and Orsini - Rosenberg

Legg inn av pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz » 03 mai 2007 09:04:31

Henry Soszynski napsal:
On Wed, 2 May 2007 22:51:53 +0200, "Cesare Patrignani"
cepatri@tin.it> wrote:

Hello all in the group!
I would like to know if there is a link between the family of Rosenberg (in
E S Tafel 41 - Band XVI, I see that the last one of the family was Peter
Wok , Regiere des Hauses Rosenberg, born 1539, died 1611) and the family of
Orsini und Rosenberg (Fürst von Orsini und Rosenberg).
Thank you very much for the help.
Cesare Patrignani

Hello Cesare,
There does appear to be a common agnatic
descent of the two branches. The ancestor being either Vitek I von
Rosenberg +1194 or Vitko von Pürschitz, Burggraf von Glatz und von
Prachin, +1194. The Stoyan database then derives the vOuR from
Heinrich +1214, the younger son and the vR from Vitko von Plankenberg,
Preitz und Pribenitz fl.1244. The database unfortunately separates
Vitek and Vitko giving two separate descents, also Zawisch von
Falkenstein appears in both lines. So obviously there is some
confusion in the Stoyan database.

<snip>

Cheers,
Henry

There does appear to be a (later??) _belief_ (at least on the part of
the Styrian family) in the existence of a common agnatic descent, but
I do not think that it is possible to trace Styrian Rosenbergs (later
Princes O-R) before 14th century.

I am not aware of any _contemporary_ mention which would indicate such
a link and without further evidence I would be inclined to treat it as
"name's-the-same" case (and, of course, coat_of_arms'-the-same as well
- when you have your nearby hill with rosy bushes named "Rosenberg",
what other insignia you would choose than "Argent, a Rose Gules"?).

For the sake of objectivity I should mention that Vok, founder of
Rozmberk line of Bohemian "Vitkonides":

Vitek of Prcice + 1194
|
Vitek of Prcice and of Pribenice + bef 1250
|
Vok, founder of Rozmberk

was Governor of Styria from cca 1260 until his death in 1262 due to
his involvement in Babenberg campaigns of Premysl Otakar II. King of
Bohemia (to whom he served as Supreme Marshall). Nevertheless, as
Bohemian Rosenbergs were magnates of international importance, much
superior to the Styrian ones, I would be surprised if this alleged
kinship was not mentioned by Styrian contemporaries if it were true.
Also, it would certainly have played an important role in inheritance
disputes after 1611 extinction of Bohemian Rosenbergs.

FWIW the Orsini name was included among titles of Styrian Rosenbergs
on 6 July 1684 during the rapid exaltation of the family, which was
not even baronial fifty-one years ago. Bohemian Rosenbergs amended
their coat of arms to look similar to that of Orsini in 16th century
(alleged connection to Roman Orsini family was reportedly "confirmed"
by charters falsified at the court of Oldrich II. z Rozmberka in 15th
century).

Pavel

Henry Soszynski

Re: Rosenberg and Orsini - Rosenberg

Legg inn av Henry Soszynski » 04 mai 2007 23:37:15

On 3 May 2007 01:04:31 -0700, "pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz"
<pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz> wrote:

Henry Soszynski napsal:
On Wed, 2 May 2007 22:51:53 +0200, "Cesare Patrignani"
cepatri@tin.it> wrote:

Hello all in the group!
I would like to know if there is a link between the family of Rosenberg (in
E S Tafel 41 - Band XVI, I see that the last one of the family was Peter
Wok , Regiere des Hauses Rosenberg, born 1539, died 1611) and the family of
Orsini und Rosenberg (Fürst von Orsini und Rosenberg).
Thank you very much for the help.
Cesare Patrignani

Hello Cesare,
There does appear to be a common agnatic
descent of the two branches. The ancestor being either Vitek I von
Rosenberg +1194 or Vitko von Pürschitz, Burggraf von Glatz und von
Prachin, +1194. The Stoyan database then derives the vOuR from
Heinrich +1214, the younger son and the vR from Vitko von Plankenberg,
Preitz und Pribenitz fl.1244. The database unfortunately separates
Vitek and Vitko giving two separate descents, also Zawisch von
Falkenstein appears in both lines. So obviously there is some
confusion in the Stoyan database.

snip


Cheers,
Henry

There does appear to be a (later??) _belief_ (at least on the part of
the Styrian family) in the existence of a common agnatic descent, but
I do not think that it is possible to trace Styrian Rosenbergs (later
Princes O-R) before 14th century.

I am not aware of any _contemporary_ mention which would indicate such
a link and without further evidence I would be inclined to treat it as
"name's-the-same" case (and, of course, coat_of_arms'-the-same as well
- when you have your nearby hill with rosy bushes named "Rosenberg",
what other insignia you would choose than "Argent, a Rose Gules"?).

For the sake of objectivity I should mention that Vok, founder of
Rozmberk line of Bohemian "Vitkonides":

Vitek of Prcice + 1194
|
Vitek of Prcice and of Pribenice + bef 1250
|
Vok, founder of Rozmberk

was Governor of Styria from cca 1260 until his death in 1262 due to
his involvement in Babenberg campaigns of Premysl Otakar II. King of
Bohemia (to whom he served as Supreme Marshall). Nevertheless, as
Bohemian Rosenbergs were magnates of international importance, much
superior to the Styrian ones, I would be surprised if this alleged
kinship was not mentioned by Styrian contemporaries if it were true.
Also, it would certainly have played an important role in inheritance
disputes after 1611 extinction of Bohemian Rosenbergs.

FWIW the Orsini name was included among titles of Styrian Rosenbergs
on 6 July 1684 during the rapid exaltation of the family, which was
not even baronial fifty-one years ago. Bohemian Rosenbergs amended
their coat of arms to look similar to that of Orsini in 16th century
(alleged connection to Roman Orsini family was reportedly "confirmed"
by charters falsified at the court of Oldrich II. z Rozmberka in 15th
century).

Pavel
Hello Pavel,

Thank you for the details on the Rosenberg
lines as well as the info on the Orsini connection (or lack of). I
always wondered whether there might have been a blood relationship to
the Orsini somehow.

Cheers,
Henry

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