Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

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Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 19:03:32

There is a discussion in the archives of this group concerning
Findguala, the mother of King Olaf II of Man. There exists a poem in
praise of Olaf's brother Raghnall, King of Man, written by a poet
resident at his court. In this poem Rognvald's mother is named several
times as Sadhbh, an Irish name. Could Sadhbh be identical to
Findguala? I suppose Godred V could have had sons by two different
Irish women. See Brian O Cuiv's "A poem in praise of Raghnall, king of
Man', Eigse vol. 8, 1957, 283-301. Interested parties could probably
order a copy of this article from Eigse at http://www.nui.ie/eigse/

The poem itself is quite long, and I'll just quote a couple of
relevent snippets.

"You, the son of noble Sadhbh,
are the fairest apple scepter.
What god from beside the Boyne,
conceived you with her in secret?

Raghnall, king of the stronghold,
Da-Thi's great ridge seeks your head:
you will get, Sadhbh's noble son,
speech from the slab on Tara's side.
....
Lavish, manly son of Gofraidh,
pleasant, noble son of Sadhbh,
with a mere splinter you shattered
the straight bright gate of a court."

WJhonson

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 19:13:50

Checking my database I have this Gofraidh listed as "Godred".
Why Godred? Looking at the name "Gofraidh" to me I'd suspect a better alternate spelling might be Geoffrey, that is Jeffrey.

Will

In a message dated 05/02/07 11:05:40 Pacific Standard Time, Mississippienne@gmail.com writes:
Lavish, manly son of Gofraidh,
pleasant, noble son of Sadhbh,

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 mai 2007 19:41:31

Dear Mississippienne,

The short answer is, Olaf and Raghnall were half-brothers.
Olaf's mother was Finguala (one spelling), while Raghnall's mother was
not. I do not have Sadhbh in my database, but this could well be her
name - at least there is the evidence for same which you have now
provided.

See at the very least, Stewart Baldwin's fine work on the Kings
of the Isle of Man, which should still be accessible at
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/man.htm


Cheers,

John




On May 2, 2:03 pm, Mississippie...@gmail.com wrote:
There is a discussion in the archives of this group concerning
Findguala, the mother of King Olaf II of Man. There exists a poem in
praise of Olaf's brother Raghnall, King of Man, written by a poet
resident at his court. In this poem Rognvald's mother is named several
times as Sadhbh, an Irish name. Could Sadhbh be identical to
Findguala? I suppose Godred V could have had sons by two different
Irish women. See Brian O Cuiv's "A poem in praise of Raghnall, king of
Man', Eigse vol. 8, 1957, 283-301. Interested parties could probably
order a copy of this article from Eigse athttp://www.nui.ie/eigse/

The poem itself is quite long, and I'll just quote a couple of
relevent snippets.

"You, the son of noble Sadhbh,
are the fairest apple scepter.
What god from beside the Boyne,
conceived you with her in secret?

Raghnall, king of the stronghold,
Da-Thi's great ridge seeks your head:
you will get, Sadhbh's noble son,
speech from the slab on Tara's side.
...
Lavish, manly son of Gofraidh,
pleasant, noble son of Sadhbh,
with a mere splinter you shattered
the straight bright gate of a court."

Gjest

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 20:18:26

WJhonson wrote:
Checking my database I have this Gofraidh listed as "Godred".
Why Godred? Looking at the name "Gofraidh" to me I'd suspect a better alternate spelling might be Geoffrey, that is Jeffrey.

Will

In a message dated 05/02/07 11:05:40 Pacific Standard Time, Mississippienne@gmail.com writes:
Lavish, manly son of Gofraidh,
pleasant, noble son of Sadhbh,

Godred is a Norse name; these Manx kings were of Norse origin.
Gofraidh is the Gaelicized version of Godred. In Latin, the name is
rendered Godredus (see Chronica Regum Manniae et Insularum).
Raghnall's own name is a Gaelicized version of the Norse name
Rognvald, and of course his brother was named Olaf. The author of this
poem was no doubt a native Gael, and rendered the names in a manner
familiar to him.

As an aside, when the poet mentions the "god from beside the Boyne" he
is referring to Oenghus, the Irish god of love and poetry, who was
believed to dwell in the Bru na Boinne. I think we can safely
attribute this reference to poetic license, not as a real reference to
Raghnall having any otherworldly ancestry.

Gjest

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 20:36:41

On May 2, 1:41 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Mississippienne,

The short answer is, Olaf and Raghnall were half-brothers.
Olaf's mother was Finguala (one spelling), while Raghnall's mother was
not. I do not have Sadhbh in my database, but this could well be her
name - at least there is the evidence for same which you have now
provided.

See at the very least, Stewart Baldwin's fine work on the Kings
of the Isle of Man, which should still be accessible athttp://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/man.htm

Cheers,

John

I have looked over Mr. Baldwin's essay on the Kings of Man (and found,
to my embarassment, that I gave Raghnall and Olaf's father the wrong
numeral! He was Godred IV.) In his notes on this family, Mr. Baldwin
mentions that a descendant of this Raghnall allegedly married Rhodri
ab Owain Gwynedd, but says he has been unable to check the secondary
source for this marriage, Lloyd's "History of Wales". I was able to
check this book, and here is the relevent passage on Rhodri's marriage
to the Manx princess:

"For some years previously there had been quarrels between Rhodri and
his southern neighbors, the sons of Cynan. About 1190 the latter had
driven Rhodri out of Anglesey, whereupon he had sought the help of
Reginald, king of Man, marrying his daughter as a pledge of alliance,
and in 1193 he had with the aid of a Manx contingent expelled his
rivals and again possessed himself of Aberffraw." Lloyd, p. 588.

Lloyd in turn cites B.T. 238 (Bruts, 237), "Drwy nerth gwrthrych
urenhin manaw", and notes that B. Saes (s.a. 1193) has more correctly
"meibion Godrich". B.T. would seem to stand for Brut y Tywysogyon, and
B. Saes to the Brenhinedd y Saesson.

Gjest

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 21:46:04

On May 2, 3:02 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Is this name Rhodri ap Owain, the *ruler* of Gwynedd (from 1170 to 1190) ?
Thanks
Will

In a message dated 05/02/07 12:40:51 Pacific Standard Time, Mississippie...@gmail.com writes:
Rhodri
ab Owain Gwynedd

Yes, this is Rhodri ab Owain (in Welsh, 'ap' for 'son of' turns into
'ab' before a name that starts with a vowel, very like how 'a' becomes
'an' in front of a vowel in English). Checking the archives, it seems
that Rhodri's marriage to the Manx princess has been discussed before
-- after his death, his nephew Llewelyn Fawr attempted to marry her.

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