Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
wjhonson
Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
I had previously given the baptisms of the 15 children of John
Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall (d 1625), 1st Bart 1622- by his wife Joan
Brograve "eldest daughter" bur 1 Mar 1627/8 Sawbridgenorth, Hertshire
correcting the statement that they had "six sons and seven daughters"
Their third child Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart was baptised 18 May
1592 at Sawbridgenorth and died there on 30 Apr 1636 after marrying
Dorothy Alington, dau of Sir Giles Alington of Horseheath by his wife
Dorothy Cecil
Previously I had small details on the further events of five of
Thomas' siblings. Now I have details on a sixth.
Thomas' youngest sibling Dorothy Leventhorpe was baptised 18 Sep 1608
at Sawbridgenorth and as we can see below, she was a Brograve widow
and yet living in 1643.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------
Parliamentary Archives: House of Lords: Journal Office [HL/PO/JO/
10/1/120 - HL/PO/JO/10/1/224]
House of Lords
Catalogue Ref. HL
Creator(s): House of Lords
Records of the Parliament Office, House of Lords
House of Lords: Parliament Office: Journal Office
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers 1509-1700
FILE - Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10/1/151 - date: 1 Jun 1643 - 17
Jun 1643
[from Scope and Content] 1 June 1643 -- Petition of Dorothie Brograve,
widow; complains that administration of the estate of her late
brother, Thomas Leventhorpe, has been granted to persons only
distantly of kin to him, by Dr Merrick, Judge of the Prerogative
Court, to the injury of petitioner.
Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall (d 1625), 1st Bart 1622- by his wife Joan
Brograve "eldest daughter" bur 1 Mar 1627/8 Sawbridgenorth, Hertshire
correcting the statement that they had "six sons and seven daughters"
Their third child Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart was baptised 18 May
1592 at Sawbridgenorth and died there on 30 Apr 1636 after marrying
Dorothy Alington, dau of Sir Giles Alington of Horseheath by his wife
Dorothy Cecil
Previously I had small details on the further events of five of
Thomas' siblings. Now I have details on a sixth.
Thomas' youngest sibling Dorothy Leventhorpe was baptised 18 Sep 1608
at Sawbridgenorth and as we can see below, she was a Brograve widow
and yet living in 1643.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------
Parliamentary Archives: House of Lords: Journal Office [HL/PO/JO/
10/1/120 - HL/PO/JO/10/1/224]
House of Lords
Catalogue Ref. HL
Creator(s): House of Lords
Records of the Parliament Office, House of Lords
House of Lords: Parliament Office: Journal Office
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers 1509-1700
FILE - Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10/1/151 - date: 1 Jun 1643 - 17
Jun 1643
[from Scope and Content] 1 June 1643 -- Petition of Dorothie Brograve,
widow; complains that administration of the estate of her late
brother, Thomas Leventhorpe, has been granted to persons only
distantly of kin to him, by Dr Merrick, Judge of the Prerogative
Court, to the injury of petitioner.
-
JohnH
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Will,
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a Thomas
Bataille.
Thomas died 1439
Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon
Thomas's death.
Isabel remarried in1447 to Richard Dryfield, so dower returned to son John
Bataille.
Do you think this maybe the same family?
The Bataille family also link into Jocelyn family of Sawbridgeworth, a
Catherine Battaille
daughter of Sir Thomas Bataille & Elizabeth de Enfield, marrying c1225 to
John Jocelyn.
Thomas's ARMS..."Gules, a Griffin Sergeant with a bordure engrailed".
This Thomas above, was the son of Nigel Bataille who was a Parson of
Sawbridgworth c1200.
Nigel had Inherited the Manor of Battailles, Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23,
13-227, & college of arms).
Their son Thomas Jocelyn married Maud Hide/Hyde c1248.
John H
"wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1178078000.994036.317830@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a Thomas
Bataille.
Thomas died 1439
Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon
Thomas's death.
Isabel remarried in1447 to Richard Dryfield, so dower returned to son John
Bataille.
Do you think this maybe the same family?
The Bataille family also link into Jocelyn family of Sawbridgeworth, a
Catherine Battaille
daughter of Sir Thomas Bataille & Elizabeth de Enfield, marrying c1225 to
John Jocelyn.
Thomas's ARMS..."Gules, a Griffin Sergeant with a bordure engrailed".
This Thomas above, was the son of Nigel Bataille who was a Parson of
Sawbridgworth c1200.
Nigel had Inherited the Manor of Battailles, Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23,
13-227, & college of arms).
Their son Thomas Jocelyn married Maud Hide/Hyde c1248.
John H
"wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1178078000.994036.317830@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
I had previously given the baptisms of the 15 children of John
Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall (d 1625), 1st Bart 1622- by his wife Joan
Brograve "eldest daughter" bur 1 Mar 1627/8 Sawbridgenorth, Hertshire
correcting the statement that they had "six sons and seven daughters"
Their third child Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart was baptised 18 May
1592 at Sawbridgenorth and died there on 30 Apr 1636 after marrying
Dorothy Alington, dau of Sir Giles Alington of Horseheath by his wife
Dorothy Cecil
Previously I had small details on the further events of five of
Thomas' siblings. Now I have details on a sixth.
Thomas' youngest sibling Dorothy Leventhorpe was baptised 18 Sep 1608
at Sawbridgenorth and as we can see below, she was a Brograve widow
and yet living in 1643.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------
Parliamentary Archives: House of Lords: Journal Office [HL/PO/JO/
10/1/120 - HL/PO/JO/10/1/224]
House of Lords
Catalogue Ref. HL
Creator(s): House of Lords
Records of the Parliament Office, House of Lords
House of Lords: Parliament Office: Journal Office
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers 1509-1700
FILE - Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10/1/151 - date: 1 Jun 1643 - 17
Jun 1643
[from Scope and Content] 1 June 1643 -- Petition of Dorothie Brograve,
widow; complains that administration of the estate of her late
brother, Thomas Leventhorpe, has been granted to persons only
distantly of kin to him, by Dr Merrick, Judge of the Prerogative
Court, to the injury of petitioner.
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
In message of 2 May, "JohnH" <John4999@hotmail.com> wrote:
See 'The Battell heirs' below.
The arms are slightly more precisely:
Gules, a griffin segreant or armed azure within a bordure engrailed of
the second.
(College of Arms: Battell 116/146 and Vincent 124/260)
A small illustration of these may be seen at number 10 on:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Heraldry/64_Picture.html
In fact both the references to the Essex 1558 and 1612 Visitations
("Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227") show clearly that Thomas Battell's
parents were John Battell and a dau. of Sir Thomas Rochford. I cannot
see a Nigel anywhere in the lines of Battells on these two pages.
Do you have a reference for the College of Arms record of this
relationship?
------------ The Battell heirs -------------
In 1878 an first part of a long account of a family of Barringtons of
Hatfield BroadOak, Essex was published in Vol. I of a New Series of the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', pp. 251-273 and of
which the relevant parts are on, or around, pages 270-272. In fact I
transcribed this article many years ago and it is still readable at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/barringtons/Barr.pdf
where the relevant part is on pages 12 to 14 (my numbering, sorry, and
apologies also for the odd typo).
These three pages quote two important docuemnts. The first is a deed
made by John fitz Thomas de Batteil in which he clearly refers to his
sister Alice (who m. a Barrington) and Margaret who later m. a John de
Boys. There is no reference whatever to any third sister called
Catherine. The second document is the judgement of a subsequent court
hearing abotu the deed, and this account of the Enfield family has just
these two sisters .
The only evidence that I have found for a Catherine Enfield is in the
Essex 1612 visitation p.227 where she is said to have married a John
Joscelin and a date of 10 H 3, 1226, is put beside his name on this
account.
On the other hand the Barringtons whose scion married Alice Battell were
living around the year 1400 with the John who m. Alice Battell dying
c.1426 and his father, Sir John B. dying after 1368. This is around 180
years after the supposed dates of the lives of John Joscelin and
Catherine Battell, the supposed sister to Alice.
My interpretation of the record of a copy of the 1612 visitation is that
is was a concoction to justify the fact that the Joscelins had been
quartering the Battell arms. By the time of the visitations,
quarterings were only allowed if an ancestral heiress had married an
ancestor. So they had to find a generation where the Battell male line
expired and bolt their supposed heiress onto that.
Yet another reason to be very cautious of what the visitations say,
particularly when someone was reporting something that happened around
400 years before the date (1612) of the interview with the herald. It
would also be interesting to see what the actual visitation record in
the College of Arms said for this entry. But a modest fee usually needs
to be paid for extracts to be made from the College's records.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a
Thomas Bataille. Thomas died 1439 Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in
Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon Thomas's death. Isabel remarried
in1447 to Richard Dryfield, so dower returned to son John Bataille. Do
you think this maybe the same family?
The Bataille family also link into Jocelyn family of Sawbridgeworth, a
Catherine Battaille daughter of Sir Thomas Bataille & Elizabeth de
Enfield, marrying c1225 to John Jocelyn.
See 'The Battell heirs' below.
Thomas's ARMS..."Gules, a Griffin Sergeant with a bordure engrailed".
The arms are slightly more precisely:
Gules, a griffin segreant or armed azure within a bordure engrailed of
the second.
(College of Arms: Battell 116/146 and Vincent 124/260)
A small illustration of these may be seen at number 10 on:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Heraldry/64_Picture.html
This Thomas above, was the son of Nigel Bataille who was a Parson of
Sawbridgworth c1200. Nigel had Inherited the Manor of Battailles,
Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227, & college of arms).
In fact both the references to the Essex 1558 and 1612 Visitations
("Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227") show clearly that Thomas Battell's
parents were John Battell and a dau. of Sir Thomas Rochford. I cannot
see a Nigel anywhere in the lines of Battells on these two pages.
Do you have a reference for the College of Arms record of this
relationship?
------------ The Battell heirs -------------
In 1878 an first part of a long account of a family of Barringtons of
Hatfield BroadOak, Essex was published in Vol. I of a New Series of the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', pp. 251-273 and of
which the relevant parts are on, or around, pages 270-272. In fact I
transcribed this article many years ago and it is still readable at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/barringtons/Barr.pdf
where the relevant part is on pages 12 to 14 (my numbering, sorry, and
apologies also for the odd typo).
These three pages quote two important docuemnts. The first is a deed
made by John fitz Thomas de Batteil in which he clearly refers to his
sister Alice (who m. a Barrington) and Margaret who later m. a John de
Boys. There is no reference whatever to any third sister called
Catherine. The second document is the judgement of a subsequent court
hearing abotu the deed, and this account of the Enfield family has just
these two sisters .
The only evidence that I have found for a Catherine Enfield is in the
Essex 1612 visitation p.227 where she is said to have married a John
Joscelin and a date of 10 H 3, 1226, is put beside his name on this
account.
On the other hand the Barringtons whose scion married Alice Battell were
living around the year 1400 with the John who m. Alice Battell dying
c.1426 and his father, Sir John B. dying after 1368. This is around 180
years after the supposed dates of the lives of John Joscelin and
Catherine Battell, the supposed sister to Alice.
My interpretation of the record of a copy of the 1612 visitation is that
is was a concoction to justify the fact that the Joscelins had been
quartering the Battell arms. By the time of the visitations,
quarterings were only allowed if an ancestral heiress had married an
ancestor. So they had to find a generation where the Battell male line
expired and bolt their supposed heiress onto that.
Yet another reason to be very cautious of what the visitations say,
particularly when someone was reporting something that happened around
400 years before the date (1612) of the interview with the herald. It
would also be interesting to see what the actual visitation record in
the College of Arms said for this entry. But a modest fee usually needs
to be paid for extracts to be made from the College's records.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
JohnH
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Tim,
I think the two of us, have gone down this (Barrington/deBoys) path before.
I still am not sure Which Thomas & Which John are getting mentioned in the
various publications.
I got this data from a lady who died in 1993, Lucy Battelle.
She wrote a book "The Battelle family in England" in 1984 and from there I
got it.
I dont have her research notes that she refers to but references are noted
beside each entry without more elaboration.
Hence she only says those references I stated.
As she is deceased I cant ask her where her reference sheets and notes are
but it appears
that there are some of her records held in the town archives where she lived
namely Rothwell Metropolitan Borough Archives show they have something.
I found that at (http://www.a2a.org.uk/about/contributors/198-list.asp)
On page 541 of her book, under heading of "The families of Ongar Park, Essex
etc.
Book can be found on internet at :
[As previously discussed with you, I believe she missed two generations
below William (son of Geoffrey)
namely John and son Thomas who was father of John who died in Holy land
1397, and I have changed that area]
+++++
She shows the Thomas Battaille of whom I speak, as b: c1300 son of John &
Alice de Walden
This Thomas marrying
(1) Alimore (Eleanor) Ondeby or Oudeby
(2) Elizabeth de Enfield
(3) Isabel Leventhorpe later married Robert Thornhill (I previous said
Richard Dryfield in error)
This Thomas dying c1439.
Effectively she shows this Thomas as the son of John , not the father of
John.
You convinced me (with your documents) that a Thomas Bataille is the Father
of that John,
but that leaves a lot of other stuff hanging.
Lucy shows the John that got back the 1/3 dower upon remarriage of Isabel
nee Levensthorpe,
was son of Thomas & Alimore Ondeby.
+++++
Are you able to tell me:
(1) Did the Thomas of whom you speak, marry any or all of the abopved women,
if so what dates (if known)
(2) Who did John (1340 -1397) the brother of Alice (Barrington) and Margaret
(DeBoys) marry in c1369.
and this John, in 1375 is shown in Lucy';s book as a tenant of Sir John de
Enfield of Manor of Little Laver.
(Page 541)(see also page 536 re John de Enfield inquisition 1377).
(3) If you dont show he married, then do you know who is the John Bataille
who married Alice de Walden as her 2nd Husband
(1st Husband Richard Fyfield died 1368) ( See pages 451 & 553 to 560 of
Lucy's book).
(4) Who is Thomas "the elder born" c1370 citizen & mercer of London who in
1434 upon the death of Thomas de Walden
(by settlement of 1404; Pat. Roll 1404 & VCH lV- 176), inherited the Manor
of Ongar Park & Manor of magdalen Laver with advowson.
(Thomas de Walden was brother of Alice de Walden, who previously was married
to Richard Fyfield who had Manor of Otes)
Lucy Battelle shows that this Thomas is the Thomas who had the 3 wives
stated at top of this docco.
So from what you have, there is a Thomas who married an Elizabeth de Enfield
in early 1300's
and from what Lucy has, there is a Thomas Battaille who married a Elizabeth
de Enfield in 1430's region.
So are there two Thomas Batailles & Elizabeth de Enfield's or What?
They cant be alive in both periods of time.
Lucy shows her Thomas (who married the 3 wives above) as the father of a Sir
John Bataille [a ward of Sir John Leventhorpe]
who married Elizabeth Orell, a daughter of John Orell & Alice nee Poynings
of Basing family of Hants.
I believe there is enough around about the Bataille/Orell marriage to show
its correct,
so the messy bits to me are from them upwards towards the thomas with John
Alice & Margaret as children,
assuming they are the same Thomas's & John's
+++++
She also shows the line of which you speak.
Thomas's son John b: c1340, dying in Holy land in c1397 sisters Alice &
Margaret co-heirs.
The one you are speaking of as another Thomas Battaille born c1300
as a son of a John who married a Rochford daughter.
This Johns father shown as Sir William Bataille b c1276.
William son of Galiridus (Geoffrey) Battaile
Geoffrey's father shown as Edmond/Edmund Bataille
Edmunds father as Robert Bataille
Roberts Father as Richard Bataille
Richards father as Humphrey Bataille
+++++++
Going back to what I asked Will Johnson:
Where I mentioned Nigel as the father of that Thomas I was talking about.
Under Nigel is shown (by Lucy), the following:
c1200 Parson of Sawbridgeworth, Hertsfordshire, just over the Essex border.
It is now called Great St. Mary church, Sawbridge, which dates from 13th
century, but is not the same church Nigel ministered to.
Inherited the Manor of Battailles, Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227, &
college of arms)
His sons Robert & Richard in 1200 (Hertford roll 20 1200) had a disagreement
over 4 acres of land with appurtenances in Gilston, Herts., which went on
for some time until a court of 12 knights was convened in 1203 (Herts roll
29 of 1203) (Herts. Roll 24 of 1200 also has something to say on the
matter).
+++++++
re Jocelyns, Havent done any research on them, statement was just a bit of
"aside" to Will Johnson.
+++++++
I am not in England, so find it hard to confirm or otherwise what Lucy has
said unless I can find it online.
re the two visitations of 1558 and 1612, that you say dont show anything
about Nigel, If you have a copy of them that you could send me, I would
appreciate it.
Let me know back through the group and I will write to you giving a genuine
email address as the one I use here is a dummy address due to massive spam
coming from newgroups.
John H
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:526dc9dc4e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
I think the two of us, have gone down this (Barrington/deBoys) path before.
I still am not sure Which Thomas & Which John are getting mentioned in the
various publications.
I got this data from a lady who died in 1993, Lucy Battelle.
She wrote a book "The Battelle family in England" in 1984 and from there I
got it.
I dont have her research notes that she refers to but references are noted
beside each entry without more elaboration.
Hence she only says those references I stated.
As she is deceased I cant ask her where her reference sheets and notes are
but it appears
that there are some of her records held in the town archives where she lived
namely Rothwell Metropolitan Borough Archives show they have something.
I found that at (http://www.a2a.org.uk/about/contributors/198-list.asp)
On page 541 of her book, under heading of "The families of Ongar Park, Essex
etc.
Book can be found on internet at :
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH6&CISOPTR=77243&REC=6
[As previously discussed with you, I believe she missed two generations
below William (son of Geoffrey)
namely John and son Thomas who was father of John who died in Holy land
1397, and I have changed that area]
+++++
She shows the Thomas Battaille of whom I speak, as b: c1300 son of John &
Alice de Walden
This Thomas marrying
(1) Alimore (Eleanor) Ondeby or Oudeby
(2) Elizabeth de Enfield
(3) Isabel Leventhorpe later married Robert Thornhill (I previous said
Richard Dryfield in error)
This Thomas dying c1439.
Effectively she shows this Thomas as the son of John , not the father of
John.
You convinced me (with your documents) that a Thomas Bataille is the Father
of that John,
but that leaves a lot of other stuff hanging.
Lucy shows the John that got back the 1/3 dower upon remarriage of Isabel
nee Levensthorpe,
was son of Thomas & Alimore Ondeby.
+++++
Are you able to tell me:
(1) Did the Thomas of whom you speak, marry any or all of the abopved women,
if so what dates (if known)
(2) Who did John (1340 -1397) the brother of Alice (Barrington) and Margaret
(DeBoys) marry in c1369.
and this John, in 1375 is shown in Lucy';s book as a tenant of Sir John de
Enfield of Manor of Little Laver.
(Page 541)(see also page 536 re John de Enfield inquisition 1377).
(3) If you dont show he married, then do you know who is the John Bataille
who married Alice de Walden as her 2nd Husband
(1st Husband Richard Fyfield died 1368) ( See pages 451 & 553 to 560 of
Lucy's book).
(4) Who is Thomas "the elder born" c1370 citizen & mercer of London who in
1434 upon the death of Thomas de Walden
(by settlement of 1404; Pat. Roll 1404 & VCH lV- 176), inherited the Manor
of Ongar Park & Manor of magdalen Laver with advowson.
(Thomas de Walden was brother of Alice de Walden, who previously was married
to Richard Fyfield who had Manor of Otes)
Lucy Battelle shows that this Thomas is the Thomas who had the 3 wives
stated at top of this docco.
So from what you have, there is a Thomas who married an Elizabeth de Enfield
in early 1300's
and from what Lucy has, there is a Thomas Battaille who married a Elizabeth
de Enfield in 1430's region.
So are there two Thomas Batailles & Elizabeth de Enfield's or What?
They cant be alive in both periods of time.
Lucy shows her Thomas (who married the 3 wives above) as the father of a Sir
John Bataille [a ward of Sir John Leventhorpe]
who married Elizabeth Orell, a daughter of John Orell & Alice nee Poynings
of Basing family of Hants.
I believe there is enough around about the Bataille/Orell marriage to show
its correct,
so the messy bits to me are from them upwards towards the thomas with John
Alice & Margaret as children,
assuming they are the same Thomas's & John's
+++++
She also shows the line of which you speak.
Thomas's son John b: c1340, dying in Holy land in c1397 sisters Alice &
Margaret co-heirs.
The one you are speaking of as another Thomas Battaille born c1300
as a son of a John who married a Rochford daughter.
This Johns father shown as Sir William Bataille b c1276.
William son of Galiridus (Geoffrey) Battaile
Geoffrey's father shown as Edmond/Edmund Bataille
Edmunds father as Robert Bataille
Roberts Father as Richard Bataille
Richards father as Humphrey Bataille
+++++++
Going back to what I asked Will Johnson:
Where I mentioned Nigel as the father of that Thomas I was talking about.
Under Nigel is shown (by Lucy), the following:
c1200 Parson of Sawbridgeworth, Hertsfordshire, just over the Essex border.
It is now called Great St. Mary church, Sawbridge, which dates from 13th
century, but is not the same church Nigel ministered to.
Inherited the Manor of Battailles, Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227, &
college of arms)
His sons Robert & Richard in 1200 (Hertford roll 20 1200) had a disagreement
over 4 acres of land with appurtenances in Gilston, Herts., which went on
for some time until a court of 12 knights was convened in 1203 (Herts roll
29 of 1203) (Herts. Roll 24 of 1200 also has something to say on the
matter).
+++++++
re Jocelyns, Havent done any research on them, statement was just a bit of
"aside" to Will Johnson.
+++++++
I am not in England, so find it hard to confirm or otherwise what Lucy has
said unless I can find it online.
re the two visitations of 1558 and 1612, that you say dont show anything
about Nigel, If you have a copy of them that you could send me, I would
appreciate it.
Let me know back through the group and I will write to you giving a genuine
email address as the one I use here is a dummy address due to massive spam
coming from newgroups.
John H
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:526dc9dc4e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
In message of 2 May, "JohnH" <John4999@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a
Thomas Bataille. Thomas died 1439 Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in
Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon Thomas's death. Isabel remarried
in1447 to Richard Dryfield, so dower returned to son John Bataille. Do
you think this maybe the same family?
The Bataille family also link into Jocelyn family of Sawbridgeworth, a
Catherine Battaille daughter of Sir Thomas Bataille & Elizabeth de
Enfield, marrying c1225 to John Jocelyn.
See 'The Battell heirs' below.
Thomas's ARMS..."Gules, a Griffin Sergeant with a bordure engrailed".
The arms are slightly more precisely:
Gules, a griffin segreant or armed azure within a bordure engrailed of
the second.
(College of Arms: Battell 116/146 and Vincent 124/260)
A small illustration of these may be seen at number 10 on:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Heraldry/64_Picture.html
This Thomas above, was the son of Nigel Bataille who was a Parson of
Sawbridgworth c1200. Nigel had Inherited the Manor of Battailles,
Manuden.(Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227, & college of arms).
In fact both the references to the Essex 1558 and 1612 Visitations
("Harleian Vols 13-23, 13-227") show clearly that Thomas Battell's
parents were John Battell and a dau. of Sir Thomas Rochford. I cannot
see a Nigel anywhere in the lines of Battells on these two pages.
Do you have a reference for the College of Arms record of this
relationship?
------------ The Battell heirs -------------
In 1878 an first part of a long account of a family of Barringtons of
Hatfield BroadOak, Essex was published in Vol. I of a New Series of the
'Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society', pp. 251-273 and of
which the relevant parts are on, or around, pages 270-272. In fact I
transcribed this article many years ago and it is still readable at:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/barringtons/Barr.pdf
where the relevant part is on pages 12 to 14 (my numbering, sorry, and
apologies also for the odd typo).
These three pages quote two important docuemnts. The first is a deed
made by John fitz Thomas de Batteil in which he clearly refers to his
sister Alice (who m. a Barrington) and Margaret who later m. a John de
Boys. There is no reference whatever to any third sister called
Catherine. The second document is the judgement of a subsequent court
hearing abotu the deed, and this account of the Enfield family has just
these two sisters .
The only evidence that I have found for a Catherine Enfield is in the
Essex 1612 visitation p.227 where she is said to have married a John
Joscelin and a date of 10 H 3, 1226, is put beside his name on this
account.
On the other hand the Barringtons whose scion married Alice Battell were
living around the year 1400 with the John who m. Alice Battell dying
c.1426 and his father, Sir John B. dying after 1368. This is around 180
years after the supposed dates of the lives of John Joscelin and
Catherine Battell, the supposed sister to Alice.
My interpretation of the record of a copy of the 1612 visitation is that
is was a concoction to justify the fact that the Joscelins had been
quartering the Battell arms. By the time of the visitations,
quarterings were only allowed if an ancestral heiress had married an
ancestor. So they had to find a generation where the Battell male line
expired and bolt their supposed heiress onto that.
Yet another reason to be very cautious of what the visitations say,
particularly when someone was reporting something that happened around
400 years before the date (1612) of the interview with the herald. It
would also be interesting to see what the actual visitation record in
the College of Arms said for this entry. But a modest fee usually needs
to be paid for extracts to be made from the College's records.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
In message of 3 May, "JohnH" <John4999@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sounds a bit like my grandfather, who died before I was born and left a
load of genealogical papers behind him but with few or no references.
The only answer was to look again for the people he mentioned and see if
any reference document said anything about them.
<snip>
I can endorse that, they definitely don't and I have no idea where the
author got the idea that Nigel was Thomas' father.
I have put the Barrington family from the 1558 visitation and the
Joscelin family from the 1612 visitation on my web-site:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1558.pdf
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1612.pdf
These are not small files; the first is two pages totalling 138k and the
second is eight pages totalling 735k.
I shall be deleting these in a few days as I do not have unlimited
space.
I do not have any other information apart from the Barrington Family
History that I gave in my previous post and which I trust you have been
able to download. Please say if you have had any trouble with this.
So if the answers to your questions are not in these documents then I do
not have the answers to them. Obviously, as with the Joscelin 1612
pedigree, the documents are not primary so may not be right.
It is worth noting that the Joscelin pedigree which contains the false
information has a comment at its end on page 230 of:
"The whole of this Pedigree is an addition to the MS."
which really sums up the problems with these printed versions of the
Visitations.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
I think the two of us, have gone down this (Barrington/deBoys) path
before. I still am not sure Which Thomas & Which John are getting
mentioned in the various publications.
I got this data from a lady who died in 1993, Lucy Battelle.
She wrote a book "The Battelle family in England" in 1984 and from
there I got it.
I dont have her research notes that she refers to but references are
noted beside each entry without more elaboration. Hence she only says
those references I stated.
Sounds a bit like my grandfather, who died before I was born and left a
load of genealogical papers behind him but with few or no references.
The only answer was to look again for the people he mentioned and see if
any reference document said anything about them.
<snip>
re the two visitations of 1558 and 1612, that you say dont show anything
about Nigel,
I can endorse that, they definitely don't and I have no idea where the
author got the idea that Nigel was Thomas' father.
If you have a copy of them that you could send me, I would appreciate
it.
I have put the Barrington family from the 1558 visitation and the
Joscelin family from the 1612 visitation on my web-site:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1558.pdf
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1612.pdf
These are not small files; the first is two pages totalling 138k and the
second is eight pages totalling 735k.
I shall be deleting these in a few days as I do not have unlimited
space.
I do not have any other information apart from the Barrington Family
History that I gave in my previous post and which I trust you have been
able to download. Please say if you have had any trouble with this.
So if the answers to your questions are not in these documents then I do
not have the answers to them. Obviously, as with the Joscelin 1612
pedigree, the documents are not primary so may not be right.
It is worth noting that the Joscelin pedigree which contains the false
information has a comment at its end on page 230 of:
"The whole of this Pedigree is an addition to the MS."
which really sums up the problems with these printed versions of the
Visitations.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
wjhonson
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
On May 3, 4:30 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
Thanks for these Tim. As I'm going along adding the details I note
one possible correction.
In the Joscelin visitation it is noted that Ann married "Bigod of
Bloffield"
There was a connection between the Josselyn family and the BAGOT
family who were of "Blithfield" [Stafford] and I wonder that this
isn't what is here meant.
Will Johnson
In message of 3 May, "JohnH" <John4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1558.pdf
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1612.pdf
It is worth noting that the Joscelin pedigree which contains the false
information has a comment at its end on page 230 of:
Thanks for these Tim. As I'm going along adding the details I note
one possible correction.
In the Joscelin visitation it is noted that Ann married "Bigod of
Bloffield"
There was a connection between the Josselyn family and the BAGOT
family who were of "Blithfield" [Stafford] and I wonder that this
isn't what is here meant.
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
In message of 3 May, wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:
Give us a clue! Which page?
Even if I had found it, I'm sure my response would have been the same:
no idea, sorry!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On May 3, 4:30 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 3 May, "JohnH" <John4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1558.pdf
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1612.pdf
It is worth noting that the Joscelin pedigree which contains the false
information has a comment at its end on page 230 of:
Thanks for these Tim. As I'm going along adding the details I note
one possible correction.
In the Joscelin visitation it is noted that Ann married "Bigod of
Bloffield"
Give us a clue! Which page?
There was a connection between the Josselyn family and the BAGOT
family who were of "Blithfield" [Stafford] and I wonder that this
isn't what is here meant.
Even if I had found it, I'm sure my response would have been the same:
no idea, sorry!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
In message of 4 May, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:
Not lazy enough: I went through it twice and still could not see it. A
truly lazy person would not have bothered even to do that.
No the bit you snipped from an earlier note of mine contained the
answer. At the end of Pedigree No 2 is the comment:
'The whole of this Pedigree is an addition to the MS'
The point about nearly all of the published so-called visitation
pedigrees is that they are not the visitation documents themselves
(though one or two were as the heralds had never handed them in). The
primary documents are in the College of Arms and until 20 or 30 years
ago they explicitly did not allow these to be used for the publications
of the Harleian Society.
What the Harleian Society did publish were documents in the Harleian
Collection in the British Museum (now in the British Library). This
collection was started by Edward Harley, 2nd earl of Oxford and
eventually bought by the UK Government for £10,000 (ukp). See CP
X, 267, note (c). Other documents from other collections were also used
in forming the basis of the published Visitations.
These documents were any of:
1. In one or two cases, the actual visitation record.
2. Close copies of the visitation record.
3. Copies that had been amended and extended.
4. Collections of pedigrees from a variety of sources, not all from
visitations.
For every published visitation there is no substitute for reading the
preface which usually explains where its source documents came from.
In other words, Pedigree No 2 is clearly dodgy and should only used as a
finding aid to see if any evidence can confirm any of it.
These days the Harleian Society has been allowed to publish from the
College of Arms' records and I thoroughly welcome the permission they
have received to do this.
(Apologies to those who already know all this about the published
visitations.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Tim you lazy sot
Not lazy enough: I went through it twice and still could not see it. A
truly lazy person would not have bothered even to do that.
The Josselyn pedigree you posted, has the Anne married Bigod but then
on a later page of that same document you posted to your site, it
corrects it as below. They call it Josselyn (No 2). Not really sure
what that means. Did they query two different families both living in
that county ? Or are they merging two different sets of documents ?
No the bit you snipped from an earlier note of mine contained the
answer. At the end of Pedigree No 2 is the comment:
'The whole of this Pedigree is an addition to the MS'
The point about nearly all of the published so-called visitation
pedigrees is that they are not the visitation documents themselves
(though one or two were as the heralds had never handed them in). The
primary documents are in the College of Arms and until 20 or 30 years
ago they explicitly did not allow these to be used for the publications
of the Harleian Society.
What the Harleian Society did publish were documents in the Harleian
Collection in the British Museum (now in the British Library). This
collection was started by Edward Harley, 2nd earl of Oxford and
eventually bought by the UK Government for £10,000 (ukp). See CP
X, 267, note (c). Other documents from other collections were also used
in forming the basis of the published Visitations.
These documents were any of:
1. In one or two cases, the actual visitation record.
2. Close copies of the visitation record.
3. Copies that had been amended and extended.
4. Collections of pedigrees from a variety of sources, not all from
visitations.
For every published visitation there is no substitute for reading the
preface which usually explains where its source documents came from.
In other words, Pedigree No 2 is clearly dodgy and should only used as a
finding aid to see if any evidence can confirm any of it.
These days the Harleian Society has been allowed to publish from the
College of Arms' records and I thoroughly welcome the permission they
have received to do this.
(Apologies to those who already know all this about the published
visitations.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
wjhonson
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Visitation Essex, 1612, pg 223-5 "Josselyn"
states on Page 225 (about 4 inches down from the top, and at the left
margin) "Ann mar to Bigod of Bloffilde ar."
following her line up to her parens on page 224 stated there to be
"John Josseyln 2nd sonne, obiit 17 of K H8 ao 1525 = Phillip daugh to
William Bradbury Esquier"
Now move forward to page 229 where in about the middle of the page we
see
"Johannes Jocclin = Phillippa filia Willelmi Bradbury" and their
daughter "Anna Jocelin ux Johannis Bagott"
states on Page 225 (about 4 inches down from the top, and at the left
margin) "Ann mar to Bigod of Bloffilde ar."
following her line up to her parens on page 224 stated there to be
"John Josseyln 2nd sonne, obiit 17 of K H8 ao 1525 = Phillip daugh to
William Bradbury Esquier"
Now move forward to page 229 where in about the middle of the page we
see
"Johannes Jocclin = Phillippa filia Willelmi Bradbury" and their
daughter "Anna Jocelin ux Johannis Bagott"
-
Tony Ingham
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Will,
Let's assume that the Visitations did in fact point to a marriage
between Anne Josselyn and John Bagot esquire of Blithfield Staffs.
The union did not take place before 1 Aug 1524 when her father, in his
will, left her 300 marks towards her marriage. Her mother left her items
of bedding and linen in her will, written 15 Oct 1530, but the tenor of
the will suggests that Anne was not yet married.
This leads me to ask where John Bagot fits into the family of Bagot of
Blithfield?
Tony Ingham
wjhonson wrote:
Let's assume that the Visitations did in fact point to a marriage
between Anne Josselyn and John Bagot esquire of Blithfield Staffs.
The union did not take place before 1 Aug 1524 when her father, in his
will, left her 300 marks towards her marriage. Her mother left her items
of bedding and linen in her will, written 15 Oct 1530, but the tenor of
the will suggests that Anne was not yet married.
This leads me to ask where John Bagot fits into the family of Bagot of
Blithfield?
Tony Ingham
wjhonson wrote:
Visitation Essex, 1612, pg 223-5 "Josselyn"
states on Page 225 (about 4 inches down from the top, and at the left
margin) "Ann mar to Bigod of Bloffilde ar."
following her line up to her parens on page 224 stated there to be
"John Josseyln 2nd sonne, obiit 17 of K H8 ao 1525 = Phillip daugh to
William Bradbury Esquier"
Now move forward to page 229 where in about the middle of the page we
see
"Johannes Jocclin = Phillippa filia Willelmi Bradbury" and their
daughter "Anna Jocelin ux Johannis Bagott"
-------------------------------
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-
wjhonson
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
Thanks for those details Tony very useful.
Sir Lewis Bagot was buried 31 May 1534 Blithfield, Staffords where he
has an MI
I cite
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Sxlr ... gC&pg=PA23
"Memorials of the Bagot Family", page 23
I have him married three times. First Lucy Kniveton by whom no
issue. Secondly Emma Kniveton by whom, among others a son John. This
John d.v.p.s.p. 28 Nov 1512
Sir Lewis' last wife was Anne Montgomery who d 1 Sep 1514, bur at
Patshill but has an MI at Blithfield
The IPM of Sir Lewis has his son and heir by Anne, Thomas Bagot as
"aged 30 and more" in 1534.
This Thomas had with a son and heir Richard "aged 14 in 1542" also a
son John about whom I know nothing more.
He would be a bit younger than Anne, perhaps as little as ten years.
But he is the only candidate I see in my records. There is always the
chance the "John" was not the name of Anne Josselyn's husband at all.
If we can expand the horizon than I would suggest her husband was
Stephen Bagot citing
http://genforum.genealogy.com/bagot/messages/81.html
Which is a horrible citation but the best I have in my notes. The
poster does state that Stephen Bagot by Anne Josselyn had a daughter
Jane who m a Brereton, so presumably this must be from something like
Stephen's will or IPM.
Will Johnson
Sir Lewis Bagot was buried 31 May 1534 Blithfield, Staffords where he
has an MI
I cite
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0Sxlr ... gC&pg=PA23
"Memorials of the Bagot Family", page 23
I have him married three times. First Lucy Kniveton by whom no
issue. Secondly Emma Kniveton by whom, among others a son John. This
John d.v.p.s.p. 28 Nov 1512
Sir Lewis' last wife was Anne Montgomery who d 1 Sep 1514, bur at
Patshill but has an MI at Blithfield
The IPM of Sir Lewis has his son and heir by Anne, Thomas Bagot as
"aged 30 and more" in 1534.
This Thomas had with a son and heir Richard "aged 14 in 1542" also a
son John about whom I know nothing more.
He would be a bit younger than Anne, perhaps as little as ten years.
But he is the only candidate I see in my records. There is always the
chance the "John" was not the name of Anne Josselyn's husband at all.
If we can expand the horizon than I would suggest her husband was
Stephen Bagot citing
http://genforum.genealogy.com/bagot/messages/81.html
Which is a horrible citation but the best I have in my notes. The
poster does state that Stephen Bagot by Anne Josselyn had a daughter
Jane who m a Brereton, so presumably this must be from something like
Stephen's will or IPM.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
On 5 Mai, 02:21, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
It seems likely this John was unmarried as late as 1567, according to
a letter from Richard Adderley in the Bagot papers:
To Sir Nicholas Bagnal, marshal [of army] in Ireland. April 10, 1567.
Asks him to watch over John Bagot, Richard's brother, who is going to
Ireland to "sow his wild oats", that he may not fall into any penury.
His brother is a sober gentleman, as highly thought of as "any esquire
not exceeding 300 marks land within three shires".
http://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/html/dfobagot.html
The IPM of Sir Lewis has his son and heir by Anne, Thomas Bagot as
"aged 30 and more" in 1534.
This Thomas had with a son and heir Richard "aged 14 in 1542" also a
son John about whom I know nothing more.
He would be a bit younger than Anne, perhaps as little as ten years.
But he is the only candidate I see in my records.
It seems likely this John was unmarried as late as 1567, according to
a letter from Richard Adderley in the Bagot papers:
To Sir Nicholas Bagnal, marshal [of army] in Ireland. April 10, 1567.
Asks him to watch over John Bagot, Richard's brother, who is going to
Ireland to "sow his wild oats", that he may not fall into any penury.
His brother is a sober gentleman, as highly thought of as "any esquire
not exceeding 300 marks land within three shires".
http://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/html/dfobagot.html
-
Gjest
Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth
On 5 Mai, 02:21, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Have a look at Burke's Peerage, which assigns Sir Lewis no fewer than
five wives of whom "Emma/Lucy Kniveton" (sic) was, they say, merely
the first! (Barony of Bagot)
Thanks for those details Tony very useful.
Sir Lewis Bagot was buried 31 May 1534 Blithfield, Staffords where he
has an MI
I citehttp://books.google.com/books?vid=0 ... aiPwufu4...
"Memorials of the Bagot Family", page 23
I have him married three times.
Have a look at Burke's Peerage, which assigns Sir Lewis no fewer than
five wives of whom "Emma/Lucy Kniveton" (sic) was, they say, merely
the first! (Barony of Bagot)