Dear Newsgroup ~
I found the following three items in the National Archives
catalogue. They appear to suggest a descent of property in Dalham,
Suffolk from a certain Lady Joan Peche, living 1292-1294, to Margaret,
wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, living 1363, and thence to Walter de
Norwich's cousins and heirs, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., and Roger
Scales, Knt.
It appears that Margaret, wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, was holding
the property in dower in 1363. I've earlier presented evidence that
this Margaret was the daughter of Sir John de Haudlo, by his wife,
Maud Burnell. Thus, it would not seem that Lady Joan Peche is found
in Margaret de Haudlo's ancestry. Rather, Dalham would appear to be
an estate which descended in the line of the Norwich family.
If Robert de Willoughby and Roger Scales had a claim by inheritance to
Dalham, Suffolk, under normal circumstances, the claim would come
through the common ancestry they shared with their cousin, Sir Walter
de Norwich, husband of Margaret de Haudlo. Thus, theoretically Lady
Joan Peche could possibly be ancestral to all three men. If so,
perhaps Lady Joan Peche is found in the ancestry of Sir Walter de
Norwich's paternal grandmother, Katherine de Hedersete (died
1341-1343), wife of an earlier Walter de Norwich.
I note that there is a John Peche and Joan his wife who conveyed lands
in Cavendish, Clare, and Stanesfeld, Suffolk in 1286-1287. See the
following weblink for this record:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=00W5z ... s#PPA88,M1
This John Peche could well be the individual of that name who is
allegedly in the ancestry of Katherine Wingfield, wife of Michael de
la Pole, Earl of Suffolk. See the following weblink for particulars
of that descent:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11802
To date I haven't been able to verify the Peche link in the ancestry
of the Wingfield family, although I suspect it is correct.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue (http://
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
Item #1:
SC 6/995/13
Scope and content
Dalham (Lands of Lady Joan Peche): [Suffolk] Description of Officer:
Serjeant
Covering dates 21 to 22 Edw [I] [i.e., 1292-1294].
Item #2:
SC 8/211/10509
Scope and content
Petitioners: Margaret [de Norwich], wife of Walter [de Norwich].
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Gloucestershire; Dalham, [Suffolk].
Other people mentioned: Walter [de Norwich], husband of the
petitioner, son of John de Norwich; John de Norwich; Gilbert Peche;
Lionel [of Antwerp], Duke of Clarence; Edward [I], King of England;
Edward [II], King of England.
Nature of request: Petition for remedy against the officers of the
Duke of Clarence who assess the petitioner for homage and fealty and
for an aid to marry the duke's daughter, when the manor of Dalham, to
which she asserts her rights, is held in chief of the crown.
Endorsement: Let her have a writ to the bailiffs and ministers of the
Duke.
Covering dates [1363]
Item #3:
C 143/402/21
Scope and content
Robert de Wylughby and Roger Scales, knights, to grant the reversion
of two-thirds of the manor of Dalham and of the advowson of its
church, now held for life by Margaret late the wife of Walter de
Norwych, knight, to John Marlere, clerk, William Bateman, Nicholas de
Massyngham, and Robert Rykedon, Robert de Wylughby retaining the manor
of Eresby (Lincoln), and Roger Scales that of Haslingfield (Camb.).
Suffolk. Lincoln. Camb.
Covering dates 7 Richard II [1383-1384].
See the fine associated with this grant at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=00W5z ... #PPA258,M1
Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress of No
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Paul Mackenzie
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Hi Douglas:
Margaret de Norwico, the mother of John Norwico, held the manor of
Dalham, with the advowson of the church of Dalham, for life, of his
inheritance, of the king in chief by knight's service. After her death
the premises would have reverted to him if he had lived ; but as things
are they ought to revert to Katharine Brews, his heir. The said
Katharine was daughter of Thomas de Norwich, who was son of Walter de
Norwich, knight, and brother of John de Norwich, knight, the deceased's
grandfather [1].
Katherine entered the nunnery in 1379 and her lands descended including
Dalham , which margaret still held in dower, to William de Ufford, earl
of Suffolk, aged 36 years and more, son of Margaret sister of Thomas
de Norwico, her father.
Complete Peerage has the heirs of William de Ufford who died in 1395 as
being his kinsman Robert de Willoughby, Roger Scales, and Ferrers.
This seems to confirm the descent of Dalham from Walter Norwich to
Willougby and Scales.
It does seem a possibility that Lady Joan Peche could be ancestral to
all three men.
Regards
Paul
[1] 1374
JOHN DE NORWICO, knight.
Writ, 24 February, 48 Edward 111.
SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Becceles, Saturday in the third week
of Lent, 48 Edward III.
He died about Christmas last.
Metyngham. The castle.
Ilketlishale, Schipmedwe, Redesham, Mellis, Wanhaston and Bromfeld. The
manors.
Metyngham, Schepmedwe, Becclis, Barsham, Ilketleshale and Wanhaston. 4
carucates of land and 6a. meadow.
On 6 June, 47 Edward III, before he crossed the sea to France with
William earl of Salisbury on the king's service, and long before his
death, he granted the premises, and all other his lands &c. in the
county of Suffolk, to John Playce, Robert Howard and Roger Boys,
knights, Adam de Cokefeld, parson of the church of Salle, Ellis de
Byntre, parson of the church of Dalham, Hervey de Welham, parson of the
church of Stokton, John Boys, Reynold de Eccles, and John de Wolterton,
parson of the church of Harpelee, their heirs and assigns; and on 12,
13, and 14 June he put them in full seisin thereof by his own hands and
by Simon Coupere of Weybrede, his attorney by his letters patent, and
all the tenants attorned to them.
He also granted the following reversions and advowsons to the said
feoffees, to whom the tenants for life attorned
Dalynghoo. The reversion of the manor, held for life of his inheritance
by Margaret his mother, late the wife of Walter de Norwyco, knight.
Dalynghoo. The advowson of the church.
Alderton. A fifth part of the advowson of the church.
Ilketlyshale. The reversions of the manor there called' Welyngtones,'
the manor of Thoryngton, the lands in Ilketlyshale formerly belonging to
Oliver de Stratton, and the lands in Ilketlyshale called 'Fyttons,' held
for life of his inheritance, by the aforesaid Hervey de Welham.
Wenhaston and Thoryngton. The reversion of all the lands held for life
of his inheritance by John Dounemogh.
None of the premises are held of the king.
Endorsement : The parties came into the Chancery on 18 March, 48 Edward
III, and craved livery of the premises ; and as the heir of John de
Norwico was not present in court, a day was given to him and them in a
month from Easter next.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Lodene, Friday before St. Gregory the
Pope, 48 Edward III.
Sculthorp. The manor (extent given), with the advowson of its church,
held of the king in chief by service of one knight's fee. The extent
includes a leet.
Great Massyngham. 8 marks rent, held of the king in chief, services not
known.
He held no other lands &c. in the county when he died, because on 6 June
last he enfeoffed John Plays, Robert Howard and Roger Boys, knights,
John Boys, John de Wolterton and others of all the rest of his lands &c.
in the county.
He died about the feast of the CIrcumcision last. Katharine de Brews,
his kinswoman, aged 32 years and more, is his heir.
Writ to the escheator to certify the king in the Chancery as to the
relationship of the said Katharine to the deceased. 24 March, 48 Edward 111.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Norwich, Monday the morrow of Easter,
48 Edward III.
The said Katharine was daughter of Thomas de Norwich, who was son of
Walter de Norwich, knight, and brother of John de Norwich, knight, the
deceased's grandfather.
Writ of plura, 10 October, 48 Edward 111.
SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Becles, Saturday after St. Luke, 48
Edward 111.
Bredefeld and Dalham. Margaret de Norwico, his mother, holds the
manors, with the advowson of the church of Dalham, for life, of his
inheritance, of the king in chief by knight's service. After her death
the premises would have reverted to him if he had lived ; but as things
are they ought to revert to Katharine Brews, his heir as above.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Walsyngham, Tuesday after St. Luke,
..48 Edward III
Skulthorp. The manor (extent given), with the advowson of the church,
held of the king in chief by service of a moiety of a knight's fee. The
extent includes a Ieet.
Great Massynham. Edward 11 by his charter gave, to Walter de Norwico,
..the deceased's great -grandfather, and his heirs, all the lands &c. in
Great Massyngham late of Thomas de Weylond, with the views of
frankpledge; services of free tenants, and all other appurtenances
thereof, to hold at a fee-farm of 8 marks yearly at the Exchequer, which
fee-farm the present king afterwards gave by charter to the prioress and
nuns of Brodholm. After the death of the said Walter the lands &c.
descended to John his son and heir, the deceased's grandfather, and from
him to the deceased, who was seised of them in his demesne as of fee.
He died about the feast of the Circumcision last. Katharine Brews, aged
30 years and more, is his kinswoman and heir, to wit, daughter Thomas de
Norwico the brother of the aforesaid John the deceased's grandfather.
CIPM 14: 43-45
[2]
1379
Katharine Breux, or Breus
Wril to the escheator to enquire touching the lands and heir of the said
Katharine, who has assumed the habit of religion and is professed
therein. 3 April, 3 Richard 11.
210. NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Hengham, 12 April, 3 Richard II.
She held the under-mentioned fees, advowsons and reversions in her
demesne as of fee on the day of her profession.
Tatersete and Sengham. A knight's fee, lately held by James Pinkeney;
and a knight's fee, lately held by Simon Payn, Thomas atte Gannok and
John de Hindringham.
Little Rybourgh and Styberd. A knight's fee, held by John Pauly.
Barsham. Half a knight's fee, held by the heir of Richard de Waldegrave,
knight, William. de Berneyngham, Katharine le Wake and John de
Thorplond; and half a knight's fee, held by John Bole.
Dudlyngton (called 'Dockesfee'), Fouldon, Langeford and Bodeneye (called
'Brounesfee'). Two knights' fees, held by Richard Holdich, John de
Crombek and William de Holkham.
Northwold. Half a knight's fee, held by Martin de Mendharn and formerly
belonging to Sir Thomas Dakeney.
Snetesham and Sharneborn. Half a knight's fee called 'Rusteynes,' held
by John Techeswell.
Annemere, Frenge and Dockyngg. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by
Hawise and Elizabeth, daughters of John de Milham.
Shirford. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by Guy le Shepherde,
Adam Wynter and Stephen atte Watere.
Staneford by Milham. A messuage with a wood and 18 a. land, called '
Cothilton,' held of the said Katharine on the day of her profession by
John parson of Hornyngtoft by service of a twentieth part of a knight's fee.
Longe Stratton, Moryngthorp and Therston. A knight's fee, held by Robert
de Stratton.
Sculthorp. The reversion of a messuage and 30 a. land held for life by
Agnes Bole by gift of John de Norwico, ancestor of the said Katharine,
whose heir she is, the reversion pertaining to the said John and his heirs.
Sculthorp and Barsham. The reversion of a messuage and 24 a. land, held
for life by John Wynsom, the reversion pertaining to the said John de
Norwico and his heirs.
Sculthorp. 1 a. land and the advowson of the church, held by the said
Katharine on the day of her profession and formerly acquired by the late
earl of Warrene from the heirs of Someres.
Pakesford. A knight's fee called ' Tampworthesfee,' with the advowson of
the church, held by Thomas Fastolf, knight.
Frenge and Dockyngg. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by William de
Elmham, knight.
The aforesaid fees, reversions and advowsons are held of the king in
chief, together with the manor of Sculthorp, by service of a third part
of a knight's fee.
She was professed at Derteford on 2 February, 2 Richard II. William de
Ufford, earl of Suffolk, aged 36 years and more, is her heir, to wit,
son of Margaret sister of Thomas
de Norwico, her father.
2II. SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Henhawe, 10 April, 3 Richard II.
She held the under-mentioned fees etc. in her demesne as of fee on the
day of her profession.
Sogenho, Bredefeld, Wodebrigg, Melton and Wangeford. A knight's fee and
a half, held by Roger Boys, knight, John de Pyshale, clerk, Ellis de
Byntre, clerk, Reynold Eccles, Robert de Asshfeld, Roger de Wolferston
and Henry Serjaunt.
Blakeshale. A rent of a rose, held by the prioress of Campesseye
Groundesburgh, Tudenham and Belyngges. Three knights' fees, held by John
de Tudenham, knight.
Hemyngeston and Assh. A knight's fee, held by John Hameys.
Thorneye. A knighes fee, held by John Moryel, clerk.
Cranesford. A knight's fee, held by John Harald.
Pethaghe, Gossebek, Helmyngharn and Wynston. Half a.knight's fee, held
by Thomas de Gippewico.
Thistelden, Boulge, Debach, Burgh and Groundesburgh. A knight's fee,
held by John Bysshop.
Eston. A knight's fee, held by John Denton.
Pottesford. A knight's fee, held by Thomas de Wyngefeld.
Pethaghe, Gossebek, Framesden, Gretyngharn and Wynston. A fourth part of
a knight's fee, held by John Cobat.
Asshefeld and Thorp. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by the prior
of Buttele, Edmund Osbern, Robert de Kenton, Henry Qwyncy, Ranulf Gynour
and Ralph de Northaugh.
Claveryng, Hacheston, Wykharn and Eston. A knight's fee, held by the
abbot of Leyston.
Pethaughe. Half a knight's fee, held by the same abbot.
Foxhole, Kessegrave and Boklesham. Half a knight's fee, held by the
abbot of Sibbeton.
Foxhole. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by the prior of Holy
Trinity, Ipswich.
Rendlesham- A knight's fee held by Bartholotnew Naulton, knight
Russhemere. A knight's fee, held by John Secford, knight
Kessegrave. A fourth part of a knight's fee held by John Gros and John
Grenegate.
Bredefeld, Boulge and Melton A fourth part of a kmght's fee, held by
Adarn de Cokefeld, clerk, John de Pyshale, clerk, Roger de Wolferston,
John de Fynesford, clerk, and Walter Malveisyn, clerk.
Debach. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by Gilbert de Boulge.
Clebenhall and Fresyngfeld. Half a knight's fee, held by Pernell late
the wife of Wakelin de Hardeshull.
Elveden. A knight's fee, held by the master of the college of Russheworth.
Herliston. A knight's fee, held by the prior of Buttele.
Kessegrave. Half a knight's fee, lately held by Robert de Tudenham.
Elveden. Half a knight's fee, held by Edmund de Hedesete.
Little Bradelegh and Thrillowe. Half a knight's fee, lately held by
Master John Malveisin,
Thrillowe and Little Bradelegb. Half a quarter of a knight's fee, lately
held by Henry Pane.
Little Bradelegh and Thrillowe. Half a quarter of a knight's fee, lately
held by Alexander de Walpol, Thomas Shepherd and Avice de Gretton; and a
quarter of a knight's fee, held by William. Hovill.
Clopton. A fourth part of a knight's fee, lately held by William Giffard.
Euston. A knight's fee, lately held by John de Morton.
Herthest. A quarter of a knight's fee, lately held by John atte Lee.
Pethaughe, Gossebek, Helmyngham, and Wynston. Half a knight's fee,
lately held by Leonard de Ulveston.
Hacheston, Wykham, Eston and Gleveryng. Half a knight's fee, lately held
by Richard Champaigne and Thomas de Gippewico.
Felsham. A knight's fee, called 'le Brookhalle,' held by Thomas Morieux,
knight.
Felsham and Thorp Morieux. A third part of a knight's fee, called '
Harescroft,' held by Roger Lefflede.
Felsham. Half a, knight's fee, called ' Oldehalle,' lately held by Ellen
Colman; a third part of a knight's fee, lately held by Hugh Qwenyene.
Geddyngg. A twentieth part of a knight's fee, called 'Pikescroft,' held
by Williarn Pembrigg.
Geddyngg and Felsharn. A third part of a knight's fee, held by John Bakon.
Bredefeld. A knight's fee, held by Margaret de Norwico and her tenants.
Eston. A piece of meadow, held by Robert Skot.
Stanfeld. Half a knight's fee, held by John, vicar of the church of
Wykhambrook, of the manor of Dalham
Thorp by Debenham. Edmund Talbot holds certain lands there called
'Croweshalle' of the manor of Bredefeld, by what services the jurors
know not.
Aylrichesford. Williarn Clopton, knight, holds certain lands etc. so
called, of the manor of Dalham, by service of a fortieth part of a
knight's fee; and also a piece of land in Dalharn containing 3 a., of
the same manor, by service of a thirtieth part of a knight's fee. The
above fees, together with the manors of Bredefeld and Dalham which
Margaret late the wife of Walter de Norwico holds for life, are held of
the king in chief by service of one knight's fee.
Date of profession and name of heir as above.
CIPM Vol 15 ;p87-90
N.B. Complete Peerage has this Katherine as being the wife of Robert de
Brewes of Stinton, which is clearly incorrect. This Katherine de Breus
was born 1340, whereas Robert de Brewes died before 1325. It seems there
are two Katherine de Brewes. Apparently, the other Katherine de Breuse
had livery of her dower in 1325/26 [close roll Edw 11]
Dear Newsgroup ~
I found the following three items in the National Archives
catalogue. They appear to suggest a descent of property in Dalham,
Suffolk from a certain Lady Joan Peche, living 1292-1294, to Margaret,
wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, living 1363, and thence to Walter de
Norwich's cousins and heirs, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., and Roger
Scales, Knt.
It appears that Margaret, wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, was holding
the property in dower in 1363. I've earlier presented evidence that
this Margaret was the daughter of Sir John de Haudlo, by his wife,
Maud Burnell. Thus, it would not seem that Lady Joan Peche is found
in Margaret de Haudlo's ancestry. Rather, Dalham would appear to be
an estate which descended in the line of the Norwich family.
If Robert de Willoughby and Roger Scales had a claim by inheritance to
Dalham, Suffolk, under normal circumstances, the claim would come
through the common ancestry they shared with their cousin, Sir Walter
de Norwich, husband of Margaret de Haudlo. Thus, theoretically Lady
Joan Peche could possibly be ancestral to all three men. If so,
perhaps Lady Joan Peche is found in the ancestry of Sir Walter de
Norwich's paternal grandmother, Katherine de Hedersete (died
1341-1343), wife of an earlier Walter de Norwich.
I note that there is a John Peche and Joan his wife who conveyed lands
in Cavendish, Clare, and Stanesfeld, Suffolk in 1286-1287. See the
following weblink for this record:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=00W5z ... s#PPA88,M1
This John Peche could well be the individual of that name who is
allegedly in the ancestry of Katherine Wingfield, wife of Michael de
la Pole, Earl of Suffolk. See the following weblink for particulars
of that descent:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11802
To date I haven't been able to verify the Peche link in the ancestry
of the Wingfield family, although I suspect it is correct.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi Douglas:
Margaret de Norwico, the mother of John Norwico, held the manor of
Dalham, with the advowson of the church of Dalham, for life, of his
inheritance, of the king in chief by knight's service. After her death
the premises would have reverted to him if he had lived ; but as things
are they ought to revert to Katharine Brews, his heir. The said
Katharine was daughter of Thomas de Norwich, who was son of Walter de
Norwich, knight, and brother of John de Norwich, knight, the deceased's
grandfather [1].
Katherine entered the nunnery in 1379 and her lands descended including
Dalham , which margaret still held in dower, to William de Ufford, earl
of Suffolk, aged 36 years and more, son of Margaret sister of Thomas
de Norwico, her father.
Complete Peerage has the heirs of William de Ufford who died in 1395 as
being his kinsman Robert de Willoughby, Roger Scales, and Ferrers.
This seems to confirm the descent of Dalham from Walter Norwich to
Willougby and Scales.
It does seem a possibility that Lady Joan Peche could be ancestral to
all three men.
Regards
Paul
[1] 1374
JOHN DE NORWICO, knight.
Writ, 24 February, 48 Edward 111.
SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Becceles, Saturday in the third week
of Lent, 48 Edward III.
He died about Christmas last.
Metyngham. The castle.
Ilketlishale, Schipmedwe, Redesham, Mellis, Wanhaston and Bromfeld. The
manors.
Metyngham, Schepmedwe, Becclis, Barsham, Ilketleshale and Wanhaston. 4
carucates of land and 6a. meadow.
On 6 June, 47 Edward III, before he crossed the sea to France with
William earl of Salisbury on the king's service, and long before his
death, he granted the premises, and all other his lands &c. in the
county of Suffolk, to John Playce, Robert Howard and Roger Boys,
knights, Adam de Cokefeld, parson of the church of Salle, Ellis de
Byntre, parson of the church of Dalham, Hervey de Welham, parson of the
church of Stokton, John Boys, Reynold de Eccles, and John de Wolterton,
parson of the church of Harpelee, their heirs and assigns; and on 12,
13, and 14 June he put them in full seisin thereof by his own hands and
by Simon Coupere of Weybrede, his attorney by his letters patent, and
all the tenants attorned to them.
He also granted the following reversions and advowsons to the said
feoffees, to whom the tenants for life attorned
Dalynghoo. The reversion of the manor, held for life of his inheritance
by Margaret his mother, late the wife of Walter de Norwyco, knight.
Dalynghoo. The advowson of the church.
Alderton. A fifth part of the advowson of the church.
Ilketlyshale. The reversions of the manor there called' Welyngtones,'
the manor of Thoryngton, the lands in Ilketlyshale formerly belonging to
Oliver de Stratton, and the lands in Ilketlyshale called 'Fyttons,' held
for life of his inheritance, by the aforesaid Hervey de Welham.
Wenhaston and Thoryngton. The reversion of all the lands held for life
of his inheritance by John Dounemogh.
None of the premises are held of the king.
Endorsement : The parties came into the Chancery on 18 March, 48 Edward
III, and craved livery of the premises ; and as the heir of John de
Norwico was not present in court, a day was given to him and them in a
month from Easter next.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Lodene, Friday before St. Gregory the
Pope, 48 Edward III.
Sculthorp. The manor (extent given), with the advowson of its church,
held of the king in chief by service of one knight's fee. The extent
includes a leet.
Great Massyngham. 8 marks rent, held of the king in chief, services not
known.
He held no other lands &c. in the county when he died, because on 6 June
last he enfeoffed John Plays, Robert Howard and Roger Boys, knights,
John Boys, John de Wolterton and others of all the rest of his lands &c.
in the county.
He died about the feast of the CIrcumcision last. Katharine de Brews,
his kinswoman, aged 32 years and more, is his heir.
Writ to the escheator to certify the king in the Chancery as to the
relationship of the said Katharine to the deceased. 24 March, 48 Edward 111.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Norwich, Monday the morrow of Easter,
48 Edward III.
The said Katharine was daughter of Thomas de Norwich, who was son of
Walter de Norwich, knight, and brother of John de Norwich, knight, the
deceased's grandfather.
Writ of plura, 10 October, 48 Edward 111.
SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Becles, Saturday after St. Luke, 48
Edward 111.
Bredefeld and Dalham. Margaret de Norwico, his mother, holds the
manors, with the advowson of the church of Dalham, for life, of his
inheritance, of the king in chief by knight's service. After her death
the premises would have reverted to him if he had lived ; but as things
are they ought to revert to Katharine Brews, his heir as above.
NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Walsyngham, Tuesday after St. Luke,
..48 Edward III
Skulthorp. The manor (extent given), with the advowson of the church,
held of the king in chief by service of a moiety of a knight's fee. The
extent includes a Ieet.
Great Massynham. Edward 11 by his charter gave, to Walter de Norwico,
..the deceased's great -grandfather, and his heirs, all the lands &c. in
Great Massyngham late of Thomas de Weylond, with the views of
frankpledge; services of free tenants, and all other appurtenances
thereof, to hold at a fee-farm of 8 marks yearly at the Exchequer, which
fee-farm the present king afterwards gave by charter to the prioress and
nuns of Brodholm. After the death of the said Walter the lands &c.
descended to John his son and heir, the deceased's grandfather, and from
him to the deceased, who was seised of them in his demesne as of fee.
He died about the feast of the Circumcision last. Katharine Brews, aged
30 years and more, is his kinswoman and heir, to wit, daughter Thomas de
Norwico the brother of the aforesaid John the deceased's grandfather.
CIPM 14: 43-45
[2]
1379
Katharine Breux, or Breus
Wril to the escheator to enquire touching the lands and heir of the said
Katharine, who has assumed the habit of religion and is professed
therein. 3 April, 3 Richard 11.
210. NORFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Hengham, 12 April, 3 Richard II.
She held the under-mentioned fees, advowsons and reversions in her
demesne as of fee on the day of her profession.
Tatersete and Sengham. A knight's fee, lately held by James Pinkeney;
and a knight's fee, lately held by Simon Payn, Thomas atte Gannok and
John de Hindringham.
Little Rybourgh and Styberd. A knight's fee, held by John Pauly.
Barsham. Half a knight's fee, held by the heir of Richard de Waldegrave,
knight, William. de Berneyngham, Katharine le Wake and John de
Thorplond; and half a knight's fee, held by John Bole.
Dudlyngton (called 'Dockesfee'), Fouldon, Langeford and Bodeneye (called
'Brounesfee'). Two knights' fees, held by Richard Holdich, John de
Crombek and William de Holkham.
Northwold. Half a knight's fee, held by Martin de Mendharn and formerly
belonging to Sir Thomas Dakeney.
Snetesham and Sharneborn. Half a knight's fee called 'Rusteynes,' held
by John Techeswell.
Annemere, Frenge and Dockyngg. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by
Hawise and Elizabeth, daughters of John de Milham.
Shirford. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by Guy le Shepherde,
Adam Wynter and Stephen atte Watere.
Staneford by Milham. A messuage with a wood and 18 a. land, called '
Cothilton,' held of the said Katharine on the day of her profession by
John parson of Hornyngtoft by service of a twentieth part of a knight's fee.
Longe Stratton, Moryngthorp and Therston. A knight's fee, held by Robert
de Stratton.
Sculthorp. The reversion of a messuage and 30 a. land held for life by
Agnes Bole by gift of John de Norwico, ancestor of the said Katharine,
whose heir she is, the reversion pertaining to the said John and his heirs.
Sculthorp and Barsham. The reversion of a messuage and 24 a. land, held
for life by John Wynsom, the reversion pertaining to the said John de
Norwico and his heirs.
Sculthorp. 1 a. land and the advowson of the church, held by the said
Katharine on the day of her profession and formerly acquired by the late
earl of Warrene from the heirs of Someres.
Pakesford. A knight's fee called ' Tampworthesfee,' with the advowson of
the church, held by Thomas Fastolf, knight.
Frenge and Dockyngg. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by William de
Elmham, knight.
The aforesaid fees, reversions and advowsons are held of the king in
chief, together with the manor of Sculthorp, by service of a third part
of a knight's fee.
She was professed at Derteford on 2 February, 2 Richard II. William de
Ufford, earl of Suffolk, aged 36 years and more, is her heir, to wit,
son of Margaret sister of Thomas
de Norwico, her father.
2II. SUFFOLK. Inq. (indented) taken at Henhawe, 10 April, 3 Richard II.
She held the under-mentioned fees etc. in her demesne as of fee on the
day of her profession.
Sogenho, Bredefeld, Wodebrigg, Melton and Wangeford. A knight's fee and
a half, held by Roger Boys, knight, John de Pyshale, clerk, Ellis de
Byntre, clerk, Reynold Eccles, Robert de Asshfeld, Roger de Wolferston
and Henry Serjaunt.
Blakeshale. A rent of a rose, held by the prioress of Campesseye
Groundesburgh, Tudenham and Belyngges. Three knights' fees, held by John
de Tudenham, knight.
Hemyngeston and Assh. A knight's fee, held by John Hameys.
Thorneye. A knighes fee, held by John Moryel, clerk.
Cranesford. A knight's fee, held by John Harald.
Pethaghe, Gossebek, Helmyngharn and Wynston. Half a.knight's fee, held
by Thomas de Gippewico.
Thistelden, Boulge, Debach, Burgh and Groundesburgh. A knight's fee,
held by John Bysshop.
Eston. A knight's fee, held by John Denton.
Pottesford. A knight's fee, held by Thomas de Wyngefeld.
Pethaghe, Gossebek, Framesden, Gretyngharn and Wynston. A fourth part of
a knight's fee, held by John Cobat.
Asshefeld and Thorp. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by the prior
of Buttele, Edmund Osbern, Robert de Kenton, Henry Qwyncy, Ranulf Gynour
and Ralph de Northaugh.
Claveryng, Hacheston, Wykharn and Eston. A knight's fee, held by the
abbot of Leyston.
Pethaughe. Half a knight's fee, held by the same abbot.
Foxhole, Kessegrave and Boklesham. Half a knight's fee, held by the
abbot of Sibbeton.
Foxhole. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by the prior of Holy
Trinity, Ipswich.
Rendlesham- A knight's fee held by Bartholotnew Naulton, knight
Russhemere. A knight's fee, held by John Secford, knight
Kessegrave. A fourth part of a knight's fee held by John Gros and John
Grenegate.
Bredefeld, Boulge and Melton A fourth part of a kmght's fee, held by
Adarn de Cokefeld, clerk, John de Pyshale, clerk, Roger de Wolferston,
John de Fynesford, clerk, and Walter Malveisyn, clerk.
Debach. A fourth part of a knight's fee, held by Gilbert de Boulge.
Clebenhall and Fresyngfeld. Half a knight's fee, held by Pernell late
the wife of Wakelin de Hardeshull.
Elveden. A knight's fee, held by the master of the college of Russheworth.
Herliston. A knight's fee, held by the prior of Buttele.
Kessegrave. Half a knight's fee, lately held by Robert de Tudenham.
Elveden. Half a knight's fee, held by Edmund de Hedesete.
Little Bradelegh and Thrillowe. Half a knight's fee, lately held by
Master John Malveisin,
Thrillowe and Little Bradelegb. Half a quarter of a knight's fee, lately
held by Henry Pane.
Little Bradelegh and Thrillowe. Half a quarter of a knight's fee, lately
held by Alexander de Walpol, Thomas Shepherd and Avice de Gretton; and a
quarter of a knight's fee, held by William. Hovill.
Clopton. A fourth part of a knight's fee, lately held by William Giffard.
Euston. A knight's fee, lately held by John de Morton.
Herthest. A quarter of a knight's fee, lately held by John atte Lee.
Pethaughe, Gossebek, Helmyngham, and Wynston. Half a knight's fee,
lately held by Leonard de Ulveston.
Hacheston, Wykham, Eston and Gleveryng. Half a knight's fee, lately held
by Richard Champaigne and Thomas de Gippewico.
Felsham. A knight's fee, called 'le Brookhalle,' held by Thomas Morieux,
knight.
Felsham and Thorp Morieux. A third part of a knight's fee, called '
Harescroft,' held by Roger Lefflede.
Felsham. Half a, knight's fee, called ' Oldehalle,' lately held by Ellen
Colman; a third part of a knight's fee, lately held by Hugh Qwenyene.
Geddyngg. A twentieth part of a knight's fee, called 'Pikescroft,' held
by Williarn Pembrigg.
Geddyngg and Felsharn. A third part of a knight's fee, held by John Bakon.
Bredefeld. A knight's fee, held by Margaret de Norwico and her tenants.
Eston. A piece of meadow, held by Robert Skot.
Stanfeld. Half a knight's fee, held by John, vicar of the church of
Wykhambrook, of the manor of Dalham
Thorp by Debenham. Edmund Talbot holds certain lands there called
'Croweshalle' of the manor of Bredefeld, by what services the jurors
know not.
Aylrichesford. Williarn Clopton, knight, holds certain lands etc. so
called, of the manor of Dalham, by service of a fortieth part of a
knight's fee; and also a piece of land in Dalharn containing 3 a., of
the same manor, by service of a thirtieth part of a knight's fee. The
above fees, together with the manors of Bredefeld and Dalham which
Margaret late the wife of Walter de Norwico holds for life, are held of
the king in chief by service of one knight's fee.
Date of profession and name of heir as above.
CIPM Vol 15 ;p87-90
N.B. Complete Peerage has this Katherine as being the wife of Robert de
Brewes of Stinton, which is clearly incorrect. This Katherine de Breus
was born 1340, whereas Robert de Brewes died before 1325. It seems there
are two Katherine de Brewes. Apparently, the other Katherine de Breuse
had livery of her dower in 1325/26 [close roll Edw 11]
-
pj.evans
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
On Apr 24, 9:17 pm, Paul Mackenzie <paul.macken...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
I'm having a little trouble sorting out the various Johns, Thomases
and Walters de Norwich here. Could one of you learned gentles please
put up a descendancy list?
So far I have
1. Walter m Katherine [de] Hedersete
2. John m ?
3a. Walter m Margaret de Haudlo
4a. Margaret m Robert de Ufford
5a. Walter de Ufford
4b. Thomas m ?
5b. Katherine [de Brews]
[Where I run into trouble is that Katherine's father is described as
the grand-uncle of John de Norwich whose IPM is being quoted. A few
more dates would be helpful.]
wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
I found the following three items in the National Archives
catalogue. They appear to suggest a descent of property in Dalham,
Suffolk from a certain Lady Joan Peche, living 1292-1294, to Margaret,
wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, living 1363, and thence to Walter de
Norwich's cousins and heirs, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., and Roger
Scales, Knt.
It appears that Margaret, wife of Sir Walter de Norwich, was holding
the property in dower in 1363. I've earlier presented evidence that
this Margaret was the daughter of Sir John de Haudlo, by his wife,
Maud Burnell. Thus, it would not seem that Lady Joan Peche is found
in Margaret de Haudlo's ancestry. Rather, Dalham would appear to be
an estate which descended in the line of the Norwich family.
[snip]
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi Douglas:
Margaret de Norwico, the mother of John Norwico, held the manor of
Dalham, with the advowson of the church of Dalham, for life, of his
inheritance, of the king in chief by knight's service. After her death
the premises would have reverted to him if he had lived ; but as things
are they ought to revert to Katharine Brews, his heir. The said
Katharine was daughter of Thomas de Norwich, who was son of Walter de
Norwich, knight, and brother of John de Norwich, knight, the deceased's
grandfather [1].
Katherine entered the nunnery in 1379 and her lands descended including
Dalham , which margaret still held in dower, to William de Ufford, earl
of Suffolk, aged 36 years and more, son of Margaret sister of Thomas
de Norwico, her father.
Complete Peerage has the heirs of William de Ufford who died in 1395 as
being his kinsman Robert de Willoughby, Roger Scales, and Ferrers.
This seems to confirm the descent of Dalham from Walter Norwich to
Willougby and Scales.
[snip]
I'm having a little trouble sorting out the various Johns, Thomases
and Walters de Norwich here. Could one of you learned gentles please
put up a descendancy list?
So far I have
1. Walter m Katherine [de] Hedersete
2. John m ?
3a. Walter m Margaret de Haudlo
4a. Margaret m Robert de Ufford
5a. Walter de Ufford
4b. Thomas m ?
5b. Katherine [de Brews]
[Where I run into trouble is that Katherine's father is described as
the grand-uncle of John de Norwich whose IPM is being quoted. A few
more dates would be helpful.]
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
Dear Paul and P.J.
Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.
Since my original post, I've read a statement online to the effect
that:
"Gilbert Peche IV of the sixth generation in 1303 sold the lordship of
the manor [of Dalham] to King Edward I "in exchange."
Source: http://www.thepeaches.com/genealogy/NL2.htm
If correct, it would appear that the manor of Dalham, Suffolk passed
out of the hands of the Peche family in 1303. I assume that it was
subsequently granted by the king to the Norwich family. If so, there
should be some record of this grant in the crown records.
This means, of course, that Lady Joan Peche who was associated in one
record with Dalham, Suffolk in 1292-1294 would not be ancestral to the
Norwich family. Rather, she would simply be a predecessor in title to
the manor of Dalham, Suffolk.
That still leaves unanswered the other unverified Peche connection in
the ancestry of Katherine Wingfield, wife of Michael de la Pole, Earl
of Suffolk. To date, I have not been able to verify this alleged
connection, nor find when it was first stated in print. All the same,
I suspect it is correct.
To answer P.J.'s question about the various members of the Norwich
family, I've copied below an outline of the Norwich family which is a
revised and expanded version of one posted by Paul back in 2001.
For interest's sake, I've listed below the numerous 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife of Robert
de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George,
Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough,
Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine,
Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd,
Francis Dade, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John
Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund
Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Roger & Thomas
Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury,
Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen
Newton, Thomas Owsley,
John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint
Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel and William
Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas
Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
NORWICH FAMILY
1. Walter de Norwich, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, Treasurer of
England, died 1329, married Katherine de Hedersete. For a brief
account of Walter de Norwich, see Sainty, Judges of England (Selden
Soc. Supp. Ser. 10) (1993): 91.
1.1. John de Norwich, 1st Lord Norwich, born c. 1299 (aged 30 &
more in 1329), d 1362 son and heir of Walter (1), m Margery _____ d.
1366.
1.1.1. Walter de Norwich, d.v.p. 1360, m Margaret de Haudlo,
died 1395.
1.1.1.1 Margaret de Norwich, d.s.p. before 1363, m. John
de Plaiz, Knt., 5th Lord Plaiz.
1.1.1.1 John de Norwich, 2nd Lord Norwich, b. 1351, d.s.p.
1373, grandson and heir of John (1.1), m (1) Valerine Stapleton; m.
(2nd) Eleanor Fraunceys.
1.2. Thomas de Norwich d bef 1372, son of Walter (1).
1.2.1 Katherine de Norwich b 1342 liv 1379 m. ___Brewes d bef
1379,
entered nunnery 1379, dau of Thomas (1.2) and heir of John de Norwich
(1.1.1.1).
1.3 Cecily de Norwich, daughter of Walter (1), m. Roger de
Huntingfield, Knt., died 1337.
1.3.1 William de Huntingfield, Knt., Lord Huntingfield, d.s.p.
1376, m. Elizabeth Willoughby.
1.3 Margaret de Norwich, died 1368, daughter of Walter (1). She
m. (1st) Thomas de Cailly, Lord Cailly; and (2nd) on or before 21 Oct.
1329 (as his 2nd wife) Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk,
Lord Ufford, he born c.1298, died 1369.
1.3.1 William de Ufford, K.G., 2nd Earl of Suffolk, Lord
Ufford, born c.1339 (aged 30 & more in 1369), died 1382, son of
Margaret de Norwich (1.3) and heir of Katherine de Norwich (1.2.1).
On the death of Sir William de Ufford, 2nd Earl of Suffolk, without
surviving issue in 1382, his share of the Norwich family estates
including Dalham, Suffolk appears to have passed to his heirs, namely
his three nephews, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., Roger de Scales, Knt.,
and Henry de Ferrers, Knt., and his sister, Maud de Ufford, a nun at
Campsey [References: C.P. 12(1) (1953): 455, footnote l; C.P. 12(2)
(1959): 152-153 (sub Ufford). Note: The latter account names Maud de
Ufford, a canoness of Campsey, as heir to her brother, Sir William de
Ufford; she was unfortunately omitted in the former account].
C.P. 9 (1936): 766 (sub Norwich) incorrectly states that Elizabeth de
Huntingfield, the mother of Eleanor Fraunceys, wife of Sir John de
Norwich above, was the daughter of Sir Roger de Huntingfield, died
1337, and sister of William, 1st Lord Huntingfield. Elizabeth was
actually the daughter of yet another Sir Roger de Huntingfield, died
1328, and, thus 1st cousin once removed of William, 1st Lord
Huntingfield. For the corrected Huntingfield ancestry, see Douglas
Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
For the identity of Margaret de Haudlo, wife of Walter de Norwich
above, see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.
Since my original post, I've read a statement online to the effect
that:
"Gilbert Peche IV of the sixth generation in 1303 sold the lordship of
the manor [of Dalham] to King Edward I "in exchange."
Source: http://www.thepeaches.com/genealogy/NL2.htm
If correct, it would appear that the manor of Dalham, Suffolk passed
out of the hands of the Peche family in 1303. I assume that it was
subsequently granted by the king to the Norwich family. If so, there
should be some record of this grant in the crown records.
This means, of course, that Lady Joan Peche who was associated in one
record with Dalham, Suffolk in 1292-1294 would not be ancestral to the
Norwich family. Rather, she would simply be a predecessor in title to
the manor of Dalham, Suffolk.
That still leaves unanswered the other unverified Peche connection in
the ancestry of Katherine Wingfield, wife of Michael de la Pole, Earl
of Suffolk. To date, I have not been able to verify this alleged
connection, nor find when it was first stated in print. All the same,
I suspect it is correct.
To answer P.J.'s question about the various members of the Norwich
family, I've copied below an outline of the Norwich family which is a
revised and expanded version of one posted by Paul back in 2001.
For interest's sake, I've listed below the numerous 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife of Robert
de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton, William Bladen,
George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George,
Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough,
Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine,
Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd,
Francis Dade, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John
Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund
Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Roger & Thomas
Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury,
Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen
Newton, Thomas Owsley,
John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint
Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel and William
Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West, Thomas
Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
NORWICH FAMILY
1. Walter de Norwich, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, Treasurer of
England, died 1329, married Katherine de Hedersete. For a brief
account of Walter de Norwich, see Sainty, Judges of England (Selden
Soc. Supp. Ser. 10) (1993): 91.
1.1. John de Norwich, 1st Lord Norwich, born c. 1299 (aged 30 &
more in 1329), d 1362 son and heir of Walter (1), m Margery _____ d.
1366.
1.1.1. Walter de Norwich, d.v.p. 1360, m Margaret de Haudlo,
died 1395.
1.1.1.1 Margaret de Norwich, d.s.p. before 1363, m. John
de Plaiz, Knt., 5th Lord Plaiz.
1.1.1.1 John de Norwich, 2nd Lord Norwich, b. 1351, d.s.p.
1373, grandson and heir of John (1.1), m (1) Valerine Stapleton; m.
(2nd) Eleanor Fraunceys.
1.2. Thomas de Norwich d bef 1372, son of Walter (1).
1.2.1 Katherine de Norwich b 1342 liv 1379 m. ___Brewes d bef
1379,
entered nunnery 1379, dau of Thomas (1.2) and heir of John de Norwich
(1.1.1.1).
1.3 Cecily de Norwich, daughter of Walter (1), m. Roger de
Huntingfield, Knt., died 1337.
1.3.1 William de Huntingfield, Knt., Lord Huntingfield, d.s.p.
1376, m. Elizabeth Willoughby.
1.3 Margaret de Norwich, died 1368, daughter of Walter (1). She
m. (1st) Thomas de Cailly, Lord Cailly; and (2nd) on or before 21 Oct.
1329 (as his 2nd wife) Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk,
Lord Ufford, he born c.1298, died 1369.
1.3.1 William de Ufford, K.G., 2nd Earl of Suffolk, Lord
Ufford, born c.1339 (aged 30 & more in 1369), died 1382, son of
Margaret de Norwich (1.3) and heir of Katherine de Norwich (1.2.1).
On the death of Sir William de Ufford, 2nd Earl of Suffolk, without
surviving issue in 1382, his share of the Norwich family estates
including Dalham, Suffolk appears to have passed to his heirs, namely
his three nephews, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., Roger de Scales, Knt.,
and Henry de Ferrers, Knt., and his sister, Maud de Ufford, a nun at
Campsey [References: C.P. 12(1) (1953): 455, footnote l; C.P. 12(2)
(1959): 152-153 (sub Ufford). Note: The latter account names Maud de
Ufford, a canoness of Campsey, as heir to her brother, Sir William de
Ufford; she was unfortunately omitted in the former account].
C.P. 9 (1936): 766 (sub Norwich) incorrectly states that Elizabeth de
Huntingfield, the mother of Eleanor Fraunceys, wife of Sir John de
Norwich above, was the daughter of Sir Roger de Huntingfield, died
1337, and sister of William, 1st Lord Huntingfield. Elizabeth was
actually the daughter of yet another Sir Roger de Huntingfield, died
1328, and, thus 1st cousin once removed of William, 1st Lord
Huntingfield. For the corrected Huntingfield ancestry, see Douglas
Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
For the identity of Margaret de Haudlo, wife of Walter de Norwich
above, see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a slightly revised and expanded list the numerous 17th
Century New World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife
of Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull,
Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward
Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew
Clarkson, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Anne
Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward,
Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Simon Lynde, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel
and William Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West,
Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Below is a slightly revised and expanded list the numerous 17th
Century New World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife
of Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull,
Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward
Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew
Clarkson, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Anne
Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward,
Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Simon Lynde, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel
and William Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West,
Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
On 27 Apr., 19:30, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Even better than unsourced website allegations: see Cal. Patent Rolls,
20 February 31 Edward I, which records the grant by the King of the
manor of Dalham to his second wife, Queen Margaret. She still held as
at 20 July 8 Edward II, when interestingly Walter de Norwich was one
of the justices appointed to investigate claims of tresspasses in her
manors. On 13 March 12 Edward III we read that John de Norwich was
appointed to assist John de Montgomery in his fee-farm of the manor.
The Special Collections item from 1363 referred to at the outset of
this thread presumably details the descent of the manor after its
alienation by the Pecches, including its grant to the Norwich family.
Thus there is no apparent blood relationship between the Pecches and
Norwiches - a good instance of the dangers of reading too much into
documents, even original ones.
MA-R
Dear Paul and P.J.
Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.
Since my original post, I've read a statement online to the effect
that:
"Gilbert Peche IV of the sixth generation in 1303 sold the lordship of
the manor [of Dalham] to King Edward I "in exchange."
Source:http://www.thepeaches.com/genealogy/NL2.htm
If correct, it would appear that the manor of Dalham, Suffolk passed
out of the hands of the Peche family in 1303. I assume that it was
subsequently granted by the king to the Norwich family. If so, there
should be some record of this grant in the crown records.
Even better than unsourced website allegations: see Cal. Patent Rolls,
20 February 31 Edward I, which records the grant by the King of the
manor of Dalham to his second wife, Queen Margaret. She still held as
at 20 July 8 Edward II, when interestingly Walter de Norwich was one
of the justices appointed to investigate claims of tresspasses in her
manors. On 13 March 12 Edward III we read that John de Norwich was
appointed to assist John de Montgomery in his fee-farm of the manor.
The Special Collections item from 1363 referred to at the outset of
this thread presumably details the descent of the manor after its
alienation by the Pecches, including its grant to the Norwich family.
Thus there is no apparent blood relationship between the Pecches and
Norwiches - a good instance of the dangers of reading too much into
documents, even original ones.
MA-R
-
pj.evans
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
On Apr 27, 11:30 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
That helps a great deal. Sometimes you need a program to tell the
players... and when all the players are pulling from the same set of
given names, it's critical.
Dear Paul and P.J.
Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.
[snip]
To answer P.J.'s question about the various members of the Norwich
family, I've copied below an outline of the Norwich family which is a
revised and expanded version of one posted by Paul back in 2001.
[snip]
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
NORWICH FAMILY
1. Walter de Norwich, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, Treasurer of
England, died 1329, married Katherine de Hedersete. For a brief
account of Walter de Norwich, see Sainty, Judges of England (Selden
Soc. Supp. Ser. 10) (1993): 91.
1.1. John de Norwich, 1st Lord Norwich, born c. 1299 (aged 30 &
more in 1329), d 1362 son and heir of Walter (1), m Margery _____ d.
1366.
1.1.1. Walter de Norwich, d.v.p. 1360, m Margaret de Haudlo,
died 1395.
1.1.1.1 Margaret de Norwich, d.s.p. before 1363, m. John
de Plaiz, Knt., 5th Lord Plaiz.
1.1.1.1 John de Norwich, 2nd Lord Norwich, b. 1351, d.s.p.
1373, grandson and heir of John (1.1), m (1) Valerine Stapleton; m.
(2nd) Eleanor Fraunceys.
1.2. Thomas de Norwich d bef 1372, son of Walter (1).
1.2.1 Katherine de Norwich b 1342 liv 1379 m. ___Brewes d bef
1379,
entered nunnery 1379, dau of Thomas (1.2) and heir of John de Norwich
(1.1.1.1).
1.3 Cecily de Norwich, daughter of Walter (1), m. Roger de
Huntingfield, Knt., died 1337.
1.3.1 William de Huntingfield, Knt., Lord Huntingfield, d.s.p.
1376, m. Elizabeth Willoughby.
1.3 Margaret de Norwich, died 1368, daughter of Walter (1). She
m. (1st) Thomas de Cailly, Lord Cailly; and (2nd) on or before 21 Oct.
1329 (as his 2nd wife) Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk,
Lord Ufford, he born c.1298, died 1369.
1.3.1 William de Ufford, K.G., 2nd Earl of Suffolk, Lord
Ufford, born c.1339 (aged 30 & more in 1369), died 1382, son of
Margaret de Norwich (1.3) and heir of Katherine de Norwich (1.2.1).
On the death of Sir William de Ufford, 2nd Earl of Suffolk, without
surviving issue in 1382, his share of the Norwich family estates
including Dalham, Suffolk appears to have passed to his heirs, namely
his three nephews, Robert de Willoughby, Knt., Roger de Scales, Knt.,
and Henry de Ferrers, Knt., and his sister, Maud de Ufford, a nun at
Campsey [References: C.P. 12(1) (1953): 455, footnote l; C.P. 12(2)
(1959): 152-153 (sub Ufford). Note: The latter account names Maud de
Ufford, a canoness of Campsey, as heir to her brother, Sir William de
Ufford; she was unfortunately omitted in the former account].
[snip]
For the identity of Margaret de Haudlo, wife of Walter de Norwich
above, see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
That helps a great deal. Sometimes you need a program to tell the
players... and when all the players are pulling from the same set of
given names, it's critical.
-
Merilyn Pedrick
Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress o
Dear Douglas
Once again I see that poor old James Cudworth seems to have missed out.
According to my database he descends, by Margaret de Norwich's husband
Robert de la Pole thus:
Margaret de Norwich
Margaret de la Pole
Margaret de Neville, Heiress of Hornby
John Harrington
Elizabeth Harrington
Roger Copley of Roughy, Sussex
Margaret Copley
Edward Lewknor
Mary Lewknor
Mary Machell
James Cudworth
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 04/28/07 05:20:39
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress of
Norwich,Ufford, Willoughby, & Scales families
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a slightly revised and expanded list the numerous 17th
Century New World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife
of Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull,
Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward
Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew
Clarkson, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Anne
Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward,
Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Simon Lynde, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel
and William Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West,
Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Once again I see that poor old James Cudworth seems to have missed out.
According to my database he descends, by Margaret de Norwich's husband
Robert de la Pole thus:
Margaret de Norwich
Margaret de la Pole
Margaret de Neville, Heiress of Hornby
John Harrington
Elizabeth Harrington
Roger Copley of Roughy, Sussex
Margaret Copley
Edward Lewknor
Mary Lewknor
Mary Machell
James Cudworth
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 04/28/07 05:20:39
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lady Joan Peche of Dalham Suffolk: Possible ancestress of
Norwich,Ufford, Willoughby, & Scales families
Dear Newsgroup ~
Below is a slightly revised and expanded list the numerous 17th
Century New World colonists who descend from Margaret de Norwich, wife
of Robert de Ufford, K.G., 1st Earl of Suffolk, Lord Ufford.
Elizabeth Alsop, Christopher Batt, Henry & Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull,
Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward
Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew
Clarkson, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Anne
Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, John Fenwick, Muriel Gurdon,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward,
Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Simon Lynde, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Elizabeth
Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel
and William Torrey, Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John West,
Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message