Quebec nobility

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Denis Beauregard

Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 23 apr 2007 16:59:13

For those interested, there is a dictionary of Quebec nobility
available online at this URL:

http://members.aol.com/audcent/Quebec_Nobility.pdf

Among those that are supposed to be noble, I found thus far
very few French record. There are some Lettres de noblesse
with a French lineage, and some records or families that are
found in France, but most of them are nowhere. I understand
the documents available online are limited and not complete,
but I would expect much more that what is actually known.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

John P. DuLong

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 24 apr 2007 02:32:09

This is certainly an interesting effort, but it appears that the author
is using some rather stale sources and seems unaware of recent research
developments. There are also some interesting gaps, like Catherine
Baillon and Mathieu Amiot (though he has his brother Charles). Good
idea, just needs a little more work.

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 24 apr 2007 04:41:22

Le Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:32:09 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

This is certainly an interesting effort, but it appears that the author
is using some rather stale sources and seems unaware of recent research
developments. There are also some interesting gaps, like Catherine
Baillon and Mathieu Amiot (though he has his brother Charles). Good
idea, just needs a little more work.

His starting point is the list of "official" nobles, i.e. those
forming the noble society in early years of Quebec, based on a
book by Lorraine Gaboury. So, even if Catherine was a true noble,
i.e. both parents were noble, etc., she was not living in the noble
communauty, ditto for Amiot, Guéret-Dumont (another known royal line),
Catherine de Belleau (another known royal line but no descendants).

Most descendants of Mathieu Amiot were married with commoners, so they
were not associated to the noble group (which is the topic of the
ebook).

Noble with no local family were also excluded since they didn't
marry with other local nobles.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

BV

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av BV » 24 apr 2007 17:09:45

The list of nobles was quite interesting .Thank you . I have Pierre
Mouet family in my ancestry and thought he might be a noble since he
was an officer with his regiment . I also think there are great
possibilities with Anne Elisabeth de Tarragon , the noble wife of
Gilles Couturier . The de Tarragon family has a Spanish background
besides the many intermarriages with French nobility . Bernard

Denis Beauregard

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 24 apr 2007 18:18:08

On 24 Apr 2007 09:09:45 -0700, BV <bvanasse@hotmail.com> wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:

The list of nobles was quite interesting .Thank you . I have Pierre
Mouet family in my ancestry and thought he might be a noble since he
was an officer with his regiment . I also think there are great
possibilities with Anne Elisabeth de Tarragon , the noble wife of
Gilles Couturier . The de Tarragon family has a Spanish background
besides the many intermarriages with French nobility . Bernard

First of all, keep in mind what the list is. It is not a list
of "nobles". The few commoners that were made noble are not included,
like the governors who left no issue and didn't marry. And the few
nobles that married with commoners immediately (i.e. 1st generation)
are also omitted because of the scope of the book.

It is a list of the "noble communauty", those that are believed to
be noble (and I think we may presume most of them were noble), that
participated to the governement during the French regime, i.e. members
of conseil souverain and conseil supérieur, that had a seigneurie,
that married together. I don't have near me the list of the criterias
used by Lorraine GADOURY, in her book "La noblesse de Nouvelle-France.
Familles et alliances", but Yves Drolet told me he used this book
as a reference list for the nobility. I found a link below (sorry,
it is in French) which is an analysis of the content.
http://www.erudit.org/revue/rs/1995/v36/n2/056966ar.pdf

As for Anne de Tarragon, I have on my site what I found thus far:
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 010487.php
and every thing is from the original article about her ancestry
in Memoires. The relevant places are in the province of Orléanais,
diocese of Chartres or Blois. I presume if you can find a copy of
Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais, published in
1862, then you will find more ancestors. Thre is a copy at the
university of Michigan. Here is the summary from Google books:

Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais
By Charles-Louis de Vassal de Montviel
Published 1976
Laffitte
452 pages
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Jun 1, 2006
Reprint of the 1862 ed. published by H. Herluison, Orléans.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 24 apr 2007 18:51:26

I was also going to mention the article in Memoires for the de Tarragon
line, which I suppose remains the current state of what is known.

Also, is it correct to surmise that no ancestors for Marie-Anne
d'Anglure are known with certainty?

While I'm at it, I seem to recall that there possibly had been
additional generations of the de Liercourt ancestry known. Is there
anything earlier than Philippe de Liercourt/Jeanne Patin?

I am still patiently waiting to see the new article from Yves Gagne, but
in the meantime I have located Marguerite de Barbancon in the Roglo
database, and if accurate, she appears to have a wealth of known
ancestors. The anticipation grows!

Roger LeBlanc

Denis Beauregard wrote:

<in part>

As for Anne de Tarragon, I have on my site what I found thus far:
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 010487.php
and every thing is from the original article about her ancestry
in Memoires. The relevant places are in the province of Orléanais,
diocese of Chartres or Blois. I presume if you can find a copy of
Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais, published in
1862, then you will find more ancestors. Thre is a copy at the
university of Michigan. Here is the summary from Google books:

Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais
By Charles-Louis de Vassal de Montviel
Published 1976
Laffitte
452 pages
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Jun 1, 2006
Reprint of the 1862 ed. published by H. Herluison, Orléans.


Denis



BV

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av BV » 25 apr 2007 01:31:23

Thank you for the PDF file . That was great ! I was interested to see
Pierre Mouet on the list . I suspected he might be a noble since he
was an officer albeit a minor one . I also descend from Anne Elisabeth
de Tarragon , wife of Gilles Couturier . The family seems to have a
Spanish origin in its far past and probably has some Spanish royal
connections along with possible French ones . Bernard

Gjest

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2007 07:14:07

On Apr 24, 7:51 pm, Roger LeBlanc <lebla...@mts.net> wrote:
.
While I'm at it, I seem to recall that there possibly had been
additional generations of the de Liercourt ancestry known. Is there
anything earlier than Philippe de Liercourt/Jeanne Patin?

Good Day everyone,

Until the evidence is published, this remains only a "légende
urbaine". René Jetté warned us often to beware the "de" in Picardy,
as they are very common in family names.
I am still patiently waiting to see the new article from Yves Gagne, but
in the meantime I have located Marguerite de Barbancon in the Roglo
database, and if accurate, she appears to have a wealth of known
ancestors. The anticipation grows!

As John Dulong wrote, do not jump into quick conclusions concerning
Marguerite de Barbançon's ancestry, a lot of wrong lineages are found
on the net about her, I mentioned few hints in the footnotes of the
article. It was not the purpose of the article on Amyot-Couvent-
Ledran to debate these lineages.
Denis Beauregard wrote:
. I presume if you can find a copy of
Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais, published in
1862, then you will find more ancestors. Thre is a copy at the
university of Michigan. Here is the summary from Google books:

Généalogies des principales familles de l'Orléanais
By Charles-Louis de Vassal de Montviel
Published 1976
Laffitte
452 pages
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Jun 1, 2006
Reprint of the 1862 ed. published by H. Herluison, Orléans.

Here I say beware, there are 2 books with very similar titles, and the

odds you will get what is already on line in the website of the
bibliotheque municipale of Orleans, which is, the index made by the
same author concerning the families treated by Chanoine Hubert in his
manuscripts. I know the same author published a book with the
genealogy of some families, but I did not find it in North America (I
do not say here that it is no where in North america). I just say
beware if you order anything.

Have a good day everyone, R.-Yves Gagné

suthen

Re: Wadham & Wrottesley Genealogy

Legg inn av suthen » 26 apr 2007 19:28:32

On Apr 25, 8:20 pm, Thomas Benjamin Hertzel <j...@millcomm.com> wrote:
<snip>>
Thomas Benjamin Hertzel

I am unable to answer your specific question concerning the Wrottesley
ancestry, but I can fill out the Wadham family a bit which may help in
going backwards. Other children of Sir John Wadham and Joan
Wrottesley:

Robert d. bef. 1412
Isabella m. Robert Hill of Modbury, Devonshire. He d. 1425
Sir John Wadham d. 1452. I have him as the husband of Margaret
Chiseldon
Walter
Thomas
N. N. (son)
N. N. (daughter)

I do not have a son named William

I also show that Sir John the elder was also married to a Maud _____
by whom he had a child, but I have no name or sex. Sir John the elder
is buried in Branscombe, Devonshire and Joan is buried in Ilminster so
perhaps there is something there. I believe the elder Sir John's
father's name was Gilbert, but further back I do not show.

Best Regards,

Henry Sutliff

Source to consult:

Wallop Family (not the most reliable)
HOP [1386-1421] IV:727
Wadham College (this manuscript was found on microfilm in the LDS
files).

Hope these help.

John P. DuLong

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 27 apr 2007 01:53:54

Looking more at this document I am more impressed with it. Yes I
realize it is flawed, that it relies on secondary sources, that it is
lacking some nobles, etc., but it is a great first try to produce
something on par with Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln. I think we
should applaud M. Drolet for this effort.

Clearly he is working within the boundaries defined by others as to who
is or who is not to be included in the nobility of Québec, namely the
work of Gadoury. This way of identifying nobles is perhaps more suited
to demographic studies than to genealogical research, but it is still a
very viable way to define a group of subjects. I can understand why M.
Drolet would take this approach to start out an ambitious project like
this. He has covered a defined set of people fairly thoroughly given
the parameters he is following, that is, relying on secondary sources.

I think we should continue to point out shortcomings of this work, but
we should also do it in a way to encourage M. Drolet to take pride in
what he has achieved and motivate him to improve it with additions and
corrections that we should share with him.

Does anyone have M. Drolet's email address? There is a specific
correction I would like to share with him regarding the family of Louis
De Jordy, sieur des Isles.

I was disappointed that M. Drolet did not include Catherine Baillon, but
as she never really lived in the noble community in New France it seems
logical to exclude her. M. Drolet definitely is familiar with Catherine
Baillon as he prepared an extension of her pedigree beyond the first
twelve generations found at
http://genealogiequebec.info/images/20031005.pdf. Although based on
secondary sources that were not apparently critically reviewed, this
work is also useful.

Given M. Gagné's new findings regarding the Amiots, it would be nice to
see Mathieu Amiot at least mentioned on the same table with his brother
Charles Amiot, but this is a minor objection.

JP

BV

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av BV » 29 apr 2007 22:20:04

In the Leneuf ancestry , there is a Marguerite LeGardeur who is the
mother of Mathieu Leneuf . Has she been connected to the other noble
LeGardeur family ? Bernard

Gjest

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 apr 2007 06:37:50

On Apr 29, 11:20 pm, BV <bvana...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In the Leneuf ancestry , there is a Marguerite LeGardeur who is the
mother of Mathieu Leneuf . Has she been connected to the other noble
LeGardeur family ? Bernard

Good day Bernard,

The answer to your question is no. If you look at the genealogy of
the LeGardeur who settled in New-France, some branches are far less
documented than others and there is obviously a possibility that
Marguerite LeGardeur was part of one of these branches, who could have
been protestant. In that case, when Jacques LeNeuf de la Poterie
married also a LeGardeur, he would have been related 3 to 4 degree or
something like this. The other possibility is that she belonged to a
different family or from a much more remote branch of the family. To
my knowledge, nobody went to Caen to settle this issue and it is
impossible even to know if this issue could be solved with the
existing documents in the Archives. Until John Dulong first published
the names of the real parents of Jacques and Mathieu LeNeuf, there was
a genealogy of our LeNeuf family based on the one found in d'Hozier's
book at the Archives Nationales du Québec that many people was wrongly
following. My point is that nobody can say with certainty that
Marguerite LeGardeur was closely related or not to the LeGardeur we
know. I know there are theories on some websites, but they remain
only theories.
Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné

Gjest

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 14:42:03

On May 2, 1:02 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Is this Marguerite LeGardeur related to that Catherine LeGardeur who married Charles d'Ailleboust, Sieur des Musseaux on 16 Sep 1652 in Quebec City ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Good day,

Please read my reply to Bernard V. (except if my English was not
understandable), as you ask the same question asked by him using other
words.
We do not know the origin of Marguerite LeGardeur, so we do not know
if she or how she was related to Catherine LeGardeur who married
Charles d'Ailleboust. Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné

John P. DuLong

Le Neuf and Le Gardeur Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 03 mai 2007 02:50:52

My esteemed colleague, M. Gagné, is of course correct in saying that we
do not know how Marguerite Le Gardeur is related, if at all, to the
Canadian Le Gardeurs. It would take a fair amount of research to
determine her ancestry. Nevertheless, I have often wondered if more
research among the surviving records in the Calvados Departmental
Archives might not cast more light on her ancestry and that of her
husband Jean Le Neuf.

Jean Le Neuf and Marguerite Le Gardeur resided in the parish of
Saint-Sauveur de Thury, modern-day Thury-Harcourt, near Caen. Years
ago, Mr. Robert Lonsway hired Alain Heude, a professional researcher in
Normandie, to do a preliminary survey of the records mentioning the Le
Neufs. From this summary work we know that there are several documents
mentioning the Le Neufs in the tabellion records for Thury-Harcourt.
These documents were not viewed by the Le Neuf project team, nor were
they reviewed for information about Marguerite Le Gardeur's possible
relations.

When I visited the Calvados Departmental Archives in 1994, I found that
the tabellion records for Thury-Harcourt were in such bad condition that
they had been pulled from use. They were going to be restored and
possibly microfilmed. I do not know the current status of these records
and if they would now be accessible to a researcher.

I suspect that a thorough search through these tabellion records would
provide more hints about the Le Neufs and possibly help us place
Marguerite Le Gardeur into relation with the Canadian Le Gardeurs. A
document or two might also surface that more clearly indicates how the
Canadian Le Neufs are related to their known French Le Neuf cousins.

However, this would be an expensive and time consuming project requiring
far more skill than I posses. I leave this information here in hopes
that it will inspire someone, or perhaps a team of researchers pooling
their resources, to either view the records or hire someone to search
through them.

JP

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Le Neuf and Le Gardeur Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 03 mai 2007 04:02:40

John, I don't know if you have seen the new Memoires yet, but besides
the Amiot/Longueval article, there is another of special interest. It is
by Danielle Coté revealing much about one Josette de Saint-Paul and her
ancestry. It quite caught me by surprise as the author traces her line
back to this Le Neuf ancestry. I have never really looked at it since I
was sure they were not ancestral to me, but since this Josette IS, I
guess that's going to change fast.

Roger LeBlanc

John P. DuLong wrote:

My esteemed colleague, M. Gagné, is of course correct in saying that we
do not know how Marguerite Le Gardeur is related, if at all, to the
Canadian Le Gardeurs. It would take a fair amount of research to
determine her ancestry. Nevertheless, I have often wondered if more
research among the surviving records in the Calvados Departmental
Archives might not cast more light on her ancestry and that of her
husband Jean Le Neuf.

Jean Le Neuf and Marguerite Le Gardeur resided in the parish of
Saint-Sauveur de Thury, modern-day Thury-Harcourt, near Caen. Years
ago, Mr. Robert Lonsway hired Alain Heude, a professional researcher in
Normandie, to do a preliminary survey of the records mentioning the Le
Neufs. From this summary work we know that there are several documents
mentioning the Le Neufs in the tabellion records for Thury-Harcourt.
These documents were not viewed by the Le Neuf project team, nor were
they reviewed for information about Marguerite Le Gardeur's possible
relations.

When I visited the Calvados Departmental Archives in 1994, I found that
the tabellion records for Thury-Harcourt were in such bad condition that
they had been pulled from use. They were going to be restored and
possibly microfilmed. I do not know the current status of these records
and if they would now be accessible to a researcher.

I suspect that a thorough search through these tabellion records would
provide more hints about the Le Neufs and possibly help us place
Marguerite Le Gardeur into relation with the Canadian Le Gardeurs. A
document or two might also surface that more clearly indicates how the
Canadian Le Neufs are related to their known French Le Neuf cousins.

However, this would be an expensive and time consuming project requiring
far more skill than I posses. I leave this information here in hopes
that it will inspire someone, or perhaps a team of researchers pooling
their resources, to either view the records or hire someone to search
through them.

JP



Yves Drolet

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Yves Drolet » 03 mai 2007 16:03:07

On 26 avr, 20:53, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
Looking more at this document I am more impressed with it. Yes I
realize it is flawed, that it relies on secondary sources, that it is
lacking some nobles, etc., but it is a great first try to produce
something on par with Schwennicke's Europäische Stammtafeln. I think we
should applaud M. Drolet for this effort.

Clearly he is working within the boundaries defined by others as to who
is or who is not to be included in thenobilityof Québec, namely the
work of Gadoury. This way of identifying nobles is perhaps more suited
to demographic studies than to genealogical research, but it is still a
very viable way to define a group of subjects. I can understand why M.
Drolet would take this approach to start out an ambitious project like
this. He has covered a defined set of people fairly thoroughly given
the parameters he is following, that is, relying on secondary sources.

I think we should continue to point out shortcomings of this work, but
we should also do it in a way to encourage M. Drolet to take pride in
what he has achieved and motivate him to improve it with additions and
corrections that we should share with him.

Does anyone have M. Drolet's email address? There is a specific
correction I would like to share with him regarding the family of Louis
De Jordy, sieur des Isles.

I was disappointed that M. Drolet did not include Catherine Baillon, but
as she never really lived in the noble community in New France it seems
logical to exclude her. M. Drolet definitely is familiar with Catherine
Baillon as he prepared an extension of her pedigree beyond the first
twelve generations found athttp://genealogiequebec.info/images/20031005.pdf. Although based on
secondary sources that were not apparently critically reviewed, this
work is also useful.

Given M. Gagné's new findings regarding the Amiots, it would be nice to
see Mathieu Amiot at least mentioned on the same table with his brother
Charles Amiot, but this is a minor objection.

JP

Let me first thank Denis Beauregard for having pointed out the
existence of my work on the Internet. I also thank David Audcent for
posting the document on his site (it can also be found in the site of
François Marchi http://genealogiequebec.info who has brought to my
attention some 50 corrections that have been included in the version
now available in both sites).

Anyone who uses that document should carefully read the foreword and
the introduction, where I specified the scope and the parameters of
the work. This is written in French, but the main points are the
following:

The purpose of the work is to provide an easy-to-use visual tool to
identify members of the Quebec noble familes between 1600 and 1900 and
their family relationships. The tables exclude children who died
younger than 14, members of noble families who never lived in Canada
except for the direct paternal ancestors of the first immigrant,
nobles who left no issue in Canada and, of course, commoners who may
have had some noble ancestors. The data have been taken from reliable
secondary sources and I specifically invite genealogists and
demographers to refer to those sources listed in the bibliography. By
the way, anyone who is seriously interested in 17th and 18th century
French Canadian genealogy should subscribe to PRDH, the genealogical
database of University of Montreal (http://www.genealogie.umontreal.ca); the
subscription is not expensive and gives access to transcriptions of
all parish records plus a complete genealogical dictionary for the
1600-1765 period.

The selection of families is based on the definitive list of French
regime Canadian nobles compiled by Lorraine Gadoury and on the "State
of the Canadian Noblesse" drawn up for the British government in
1767. As Denis Beauregard righfully pointed out, this is not a
genealogy of nobles, but of the families who were considered noble in
Quebec. I welcome any additions and corrections falling within the
parameters set out in the introduction.

Gjest

Re: Le Neuf and Le Gardeur Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 mai 2007 16:20:27

On May 3, 6:02 am, Roger LeBlanc <lebla...@mts.net> wrote:
John, I don't know if you have seen the new Memoires yet, but besides
the Amiot/Longueval article, there is another of special interest. It is
by Danielle Coté revealing much about one Josette de Saint-Paul and her
ancestry. It quite caught me by surprise as the author traces her line
back to this Le Neuf ancestry. I have never really looked at it since I
was sure they were not ancestral to me, but since this Josette IS, I
guess that's going to change fast.

Roger LeBlanc

Good day,


For everyone to follow and for anyone who did not receive his copy of
the Mémoires, Josette de Saint-Paul is in fact a Godefroy de Saint
Paul. The Godefroy family had in Canada many surnames, like the
Godefroy de Tonnancour, whose branch is still existing if I am not
wrong. The Godefroy ancestor was allied with the LeNeuf family.
Yours, R.-Yves Gagné

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