Thursday, 19 April, 2007
Hello All,
While searching for further references re: the lords of
Morialmé, I noted some interesting references concerning the abbey
of Florennes and grants made to the abbey prior to 1033.
Two confirmations were of particular interest. The first was
that of the Emperor Henry II in 1018, who confirmed among other
grants the following:
' Countess Hawise, with the consent of her sons Counts
Lambert and Reginar, granted ['handed over'] 5 manors in
Mellet and a manor and a half at Ingremez. ' [1]
The Emperor Conrad II confirmed prior grants to the abbey of
Florennes in 1033, including the following which is primarily a
reconfirmation of the above grants with some less than subtle
differences:
' Countess Hadegunde [sic], with the consent of counts
Reginar and Lambert her sons, granted ['handed over'] one
manor in Peronne located in the land of Hainaut and five
manors in Mellet and one and a half in Ingremez.' [2]
The Countess named variously as Hawise or Hadegunde is clearly
Hawise or Hedwig, daughter of Hugh, king of France (aka Hugh
'Capet') and widow of Count Reginar IV of Hainaut (slain at Mons in
1013). Her son, 'count Reginar', was Reginar V, count of Hainaut
(1013 - ca. 1039) whose male line was to be supplanted by the
descendants of Baldwin VI of Flanders [3]. It is interesting, in
addition to the change in the countess' name from Hawise to
Hadegunde, that the order of the sons' names were changed, with
Lambert appearing first in the earlier document, and Reginar
(presumably the senior of the two, or the survivor if
Lambert in fact died earlier) appearing first in the 1033
confirmation.
Clearly the 'count Lambert' noted as a son of Countess
Hawise was not Lambert, count of Louvain (d. 12 Sept 1015):
he was certainly the younger brother of Reginar IV. Is there
any further record of this younger count Lambert and his career?
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Ursmer Berliere, Documents Inedits pour servir a
L'Histoire Ecclesiastique de la Belgique (Maredsous,
Abbaye de Saint-Benoit, 1894), I:8, no. III, which
states in part,
" Comitissa Hawidis, annuentibus filiis suis comite
Lamberto et Raginero, tradidit quinque mansos apud
Melenck et mansum et dimidium apud Engremeias. "
URL:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0olLG ... ISO-8859-1
[2] Ibid, I:13, no. VI, which states in part,
" Comitissa Hadegundis, annuentibus comite Raginero et
Lamberto filiis suis, tradidit mansum unum in Prona sita
in pago Haynoensi et quinque manso apud Melenck et unum
et dimidium apud Ingremeias."
[3] In addition to accessible primary sources, see
ES I Band I.2 Tafel 236 (chart of the Counts of Hainaut).
* John P. Ravilious
Countess Hawise of Hainaut (1013 et seq.) and her sons
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Countess Hawise of Hainaut (1013 et seq.) and her sons
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177062367.497734.30830@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Thursday, 19 April, 2007
This is the only occurrence of Lambert, he is otherwise unknown to history.
The confirmations that you quoted from Berlière's edition of the Florennes
charters were both taken from later falsified copies, all entered by the
same hand in a manuscript from the library of Maredsous abbey, with
different versions of the earlier one of Henry II having different dates
(one 15 April 1012 and the other two 1018). Probably none of them preserves
the original text, least of all in this passage the 1033 one of Konrad II
giving "Commitissa [sic] Hadegundis".
The editor of Henry II's diplomata amended the order of names of Hadwig's
sons, because he preferred the date 1018 for the lost original and Reginar
is otherwise attested as count in from 1015 - consequently the title (NB
"comite" is ablative singular, not plural as in your translation as "Counts"
above) should apply to him rather than to Lambert.
Peter Stewart
news:1177062367.497734.30830@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Thursday, 19 April, 2007
Hello All,
While searching for further references re: the lords of
Morialmé, I noted some interesting references concerning the abbey
of Florennes and grants made to the abbey prior to 1033.
Two confirmations were of particular interest. The first was
that of the Emperor Henry II in 1018, who confirmed among other
grants the following:
' Countess Hawise, with the consent of her sons Counts
Lambert and Reginar, granted ['handed over'] 5 manors in
Mellet and a manor and a half at Ingremez. ' [1]
The Emperor Conrad II confirmed prior grants to the abbey of
Florennes in 1033, including the following which is primarily a
reconfirmation of the above grants with some less than subtle
differences:
' Countess Hadegunde [sic], with the consent of counts
Reginar and Lambert her sons, granted ['handed over'] one
manor in Peronne located in the land of Hainaut and five
manors in Mellet and one and a half in Ingremez.' [2]
The Countess named variously as Hawise or Hadegunde is clearly
Hawise or Hedwig, daughter of Hugh, king of France (aka Hugh
'Capet') and widow of Count Reginar IV of Hainaut (slain at Mons in
1013). Her son, 'count Reginar', was Reginar V, count of Hainaut
(1013 - ca. 1039) whose male line was to be supplanted by the
descendants of Baldwin VI of Flanders [3]. It is interesting, in
addition to the change in the countess' name from Hawise to
Hadegunde, that the order of the sons' names were changed, with
Lambert appearing first in the earlier document, and Reginar
(presumably the senior of the two, or the survivor if
Lambert in fact died earlier) appearing first in the 1033
confirmation.
Clearly the 'count Lambert' noted as a son of Countess
Hawise was not Lambert, count of Louvain (d. 12 Sept 1015):
he was certainly the younger brother of Reginar IV. Is there
any further record of this younger count Lambert and his career?
This is the only occurrence of Lambert, he is otherwise unknown to history.
The confirmations that you quoted from Berlière's edition of the Florennes
charters were both taken from later falsified copies, all entered by the
same hand in a manuscript from the library of Maredsous abbey, with
different versions of the earlier one of Henry II having different dates
(one 15 April 1012 and the other two 1018). Probably none of them preserves
the original text, least of all in this passage the 1033 one of Konrad II
giving "Commitissa [sic] Hadegundis".
The editor of Henry II's diplomata amended the order of names of Hadwig's
sons, because he preferred the date 1018 for the lost original and Reginar
is otherwise attested as count in from 1015 - consequently the title (NB
"comite" is ablative singular, not plural as in your translation as "Counts"
above) should apply to him rather than to Lambert.
Peter Stewart
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Countess Hawise of Hainaut (1013 et seq.) and her sons
Dear Peter,
Thanks for that.
I had thought this would not lead to any 'monumental' discovery
or long-lost lineage, but then one never knows.
Again, thanks for this and the many past instances of your
sharing (and correcting).
Cheers,
John
On Apr 20, 7:29�am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Thanks for that.
I had thought this would not lead to any 'monumental' discovery
or long-lost lineage, but then one never knows.
Again, thanks for this and the many past instances of your
sharing (and correcting).
Cheers,
John
On Apr 20, 7:29�am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:1177062367.497734.30830@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Thursday, 19 April, 2007
Hello All,
While searching for further references re: the lords of
Morialmé, I noted some interesting references concerning the abbey
of Florennes and grants made to the abbey prior to 1033.
Two confirmations were of particular interest. The first was
that of the Emperor Henry II in 1018, who confirmed among other
grants the following:
' Countess Hawise, with the consent of her sons Counts
Lambert and Reginar, granted ['handed over'] 5 manors in
Mellet and a manor and a half at Ingremez. ' [1]
The Emperor Conrad II confirmed prior grants to the abbey of
Florennes in 1033, including the following which is primarily a
reconfirmation of the above grants with some less than subtle
differences:
' Countess Hadegunde [sic], with the consent of counts
Reginar and Lambert her sons, granted ['handed over'] one
manor in Peronne located in the land of Hainaut and five
manors in Mellet and one and a half in Ingremez.' [2]
The Countess named variously as Hawise or Hadegunde is clearly
Hawise or Hedwig, daughter of Hugh, king of France (aka Hugh
'Capet') and widow of Count Reginar IV of Hainaut (slain at Mons in
1013). Her son, 'count Reginar', was Reginar V, count of Hainaut
(1013 - ca. 1039) whose male line was to be supplanted by the
descendants of Baldwin VI of Flanders [3]. It is interesting, in
addition to the change in the countess' name from Hawise to
Hadegunde, that the order of the sons' names were changed, with
Lambert appearing first in the earlier document, and Reginar
(presumably the senior of the two, or the survivor if
Lambert in fact died earlier) appearing first in the 1033
confirmation.
Clearly the 'count Lambert' noted as a son of Countess
Hawise was not Lambert, count of Louvain (d. 12 Sept 1015):
he was certainly the younger brother of Reginar IV. Is there
any further record of this younger count Lambert and his career?
This is the only occurrence of Lambert, he is otherwise unknown to history.
The confirmations that you quoted from Berlière's edition of the Florennes
charters were both taken from later falsified copies, all entered by the
same hand in a manuscript from the library of Maredsous abbey, with
different versions of the earlier one of Henry II having different dates
(one 15 April 1012 and the other two 1018). Probably none of them preserves
the original text, least of all in this passage the 1033 one of Konrad II
giving "Commitissa [sic] Hadegundis".
The editor of Henry II's diplomata amended the order of names of Hadwig's
sons, because he preferred the date 1018 for the lost original and Reginar
is otherwise attested as count in from 1015 - consequently the title (NB
"comite" is ablative singular, not plural as in your translation as "Counts"
above) should apply to him rather than to Lambert.
Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -