Query: the lords of Morialmé

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Query: the lords of Morialmé

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 apr 2007 02:21:01

Thursday, 19 April, 2007


Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

<1> <2>
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I <Godescal I de Morialmé>
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V




http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9


Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé
remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de
Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on ne connait
pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et l'autre
; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de Verdun
il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une
certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué d'Hanzinnes,
seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En 1113
il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il
devient abbé. Sa sœur, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé et la
demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va reprendre
le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui
donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa, châtelain
de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé, de
Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage du
comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à la
croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic
(1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard chevaliers de
Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs, une de ses
sœurs sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à
Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de
Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de Loverval et
avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en 1213
et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une fille
du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie
passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

Peter Stewart

Re: Query: the lords of Morialmé

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 apr 2007 13:44:46

The first generations in the table below are certainly not accurate - some
of the connections appear to follow, inaccurately, a largely fictitious
mid-12th century history and charter forgeries from Waulsort abbey. From
memory, Eilbert of Florennes was not married to Alpaide, whose husband was
supposed to be Godfrey of Rumigny. She had sons named Arnulf and Werry, but
I don't think the latter was identical with the bishop of Cambrai - but this
could be wrong on my part.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful at present, John, I had my copy of Daniel
Misonne's _Eilbert de Florennes, histoire et légende: la Geste de Raoul de
Cambrai_ (Louvain, 1967) to hand a few weeks ago, but I have since misplaced
it. I'm afraid I don't have useful information on the later seigneurs of
Morialmé, not even lost.

Peter Stewart


<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thursday, 19 April, 2007


Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

1> <2
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I <Godescal I de Morialmé
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V




http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9


Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé
remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes
de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de
Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on
ne connait
pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et
l'autre
; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de
Verdun
il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une
certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué
d'Hanzinnes,
seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En
1113
il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il
devient abbé. Sa sour, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé
et la
demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va
reprendre
le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui
donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa,
châtelain
de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé,
de
Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage
du
comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à
la
croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic
(1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard
chevaliers de
Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs,
une de ses
sours sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à
Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de
Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de
Loverval et
avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en
1213
et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une
fille
du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie
passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

Peter Stewart

Re: Query: the lords of Morialmé

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 apr 2007 14:28:47

If you can get hold of _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_ 35
(1922), there is a study by Charles-Gustave Roland, Les seigneurs de
Morialmé avant le XVe siècle, on pp. 1-81. If you can't find it in a library
or get a copy of the article, and you are keen enough, this issue can
obtained for 25 Euros, see
http://users.skynet.be/vieuxquartier/ca ... 02021.html.

Peter Stewart


<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thursday, 19 April, 2007


Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

1> <2
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes
__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai
______________I 1013-1051
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I
__________________I______
I I
Arnoul II of Morialmé Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
I <Godescal I de Morialmé
_______I
I
Godescal II = Hedwig de
de Morialmé I Felnesse
________I
I
Arnoul III = Ida
de Morialmé I
___________I
I
Godescal III de Morialmé
participant in the 3rd Crusade
I
I
Arnoul IV = Joice de Bailleul
de Morialmé I heiress
d. 1218 I
I
Nicholas de Conde = Elizabeth
seigneur de Conde, I (als Isabel)
sieur de Bailleul dju I heiress
_______________________I_________
I I
Jacques de Conde NN = Enguerrand
seigneur de Conde et Bailleul (Isabel ?) I de Fiennes;
sieur de Morialmé I of Wendover,
d. ca. 1259 I co. Bucks.
I
V




http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9


Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé
remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes
de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de
Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on
ne connait
pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et
l'autre
; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de
Verdun
il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une
certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué
d'Hanzinnes,
seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En
1113
il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il
devient abbé. Sa sour, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé
et la
demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va
reprendre
le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui
donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa,
châtelain
de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé,
de
Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage
du
comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à
la
croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic
(1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard
chevaliers de
Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs,
une de ses
sours sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à
Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de
Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de
Loverval et
avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en
1213
et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une
fille
du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie
passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

John P. Ravilious

Re: Query: the lords of Morialmé

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 22 apr 2007 13:20:17

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your replies, and suggestions.

The LOC includes _Annales de la Soci�t� arch�ologique de Namur_
in their online catalogue; with some luck, the necessary volume will
be available during a forthcoming fossick. I note also, reference to
Roland's Histoire g�n�alogique de la maison de Rumigny-Florennes, in
vol. XIX (1881) of ASAN. Hopefully these two together will go far far
in straightening out these lineages.

Cheers,

John



On Apr 20, 9:28�am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
If you can get hold of _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_ 35
(1922), there is a study by Charles-Gustave Roland, Les seigneurs de
Morialmé avant le XVe siècle, on pp. 1-81. If you can't find it in a library
or get a copy of the article, and you are keen enough, this issue can
obtained for 25 Euros, seehttp://users.skynet.be/vieuxquartier ... 02021.html.

Peter Stewart

Ther...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

    An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal.  The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialmé.

    The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015.  Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

    Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

    Cheers,

                          John

_______________________________________________

                   <1>                                <2
1) Godfrey   =  Alpaide de   =  2)  Elbert de     = Hersende
of Jülich       Hogarde     I       Florennes
  __________________________I___________________________
  I          I                               I         I
Godfrey   Arnulf [Arnoul]  =  Helvide     Alpaide     Gerard
         lord of Morialmé  I   (?)      = Etienne   'the Great'
           d. bef 1015     I            de Brakel    Bishop of
                           I                          Cambrai
             ______________I                         1013-1051
             I
         Godfrey       = Gisela
        of Morialmé    I
     __________________I______
     I                       I
Arnoul II of Morialmé     Alpaide = Godescal de Trognée
                                  I  <Godescal I de Morialmé
                           _______I
                           I
                     Godescal II   =  Hedwig de
                   de Morialmé     I   Felnesse
                           ________I
                           I
                       Arnoul III     =  Ida
                    de Morialmé       I
                           ___________I
                           I
                       Godescal III de Morialmé
                  participant in the 3rd Crusade
                           I
                           I
                       Arnoul IV   =  Joice de Bailleul
                    de Morialmé    I      heiress
                      d. 1218      I
                                   I
         Nicholas de Conde    =  Elizabeth
        seigneur de Conde,    I  (als Isabel)
      sieur de Bailleul dju   I    heiress
       _______________________I_________
       I                               I
   Jacques de Conde                   NN       =   Enguerrand
 seigneur de Conde et Bailleul    (Isabel ?)   I   de Fiennes;
    sieur de Morialmé                          I   of Wendover,
      d. ca. 1259                              I   co. Bucks.
                                               I
                                               V

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morialm%C3%A9

Wikipedia, on Morialmé

Historique [modifier]
la première apparition du plus vieil ancêtre des seigneurs de Morialmé
remonte en 977 c'est pour dire que la famille est une des plus anciennes
de nos
régions. En effet, Elbert de Florennes épouse Alpaïde de Hoegarde veuve de
Godefroid de Julier. Cet Elbert était veuf d'une certaine Hersende dont on
ne connait
pas le nom. De ses deux fils connus, l'un, Godefroid mourut jeune et
l'autre
; Arnould reprit la seigneurie de Morialmé. De son épouse Ermentrude de
Verdun
il eut 7 enfants. l'aîné prénommé Godefroid (acte de 1050)épousera une
certaine Gisèles. d'eux, naîtra Arnould deuxième du nom. il est avoué
d'Hanzinnes,
seigneur de Sanzeilles, de Soumoy, une partie du village de Dampremy. En
1113
il revend presque tout et se retire à l'abbaye de St Nicaise à Reims où il
devient abbé. Sa sour, Alpaïde de Morialmé garde la seigneurie de Morialmé
et la
demi de Florennes et Auvelais. elle épouse Godescal de Trognée qui va
reprendre
le nom de Morialmé.
Son fils ainé; Godescal II de Morialmé épousera Edwige de Felnesse qui
donnera naissance à Arnould III qui épousera Ida fille de Léon van der Aa,
châtelain
de Bruxelles. L'aîné de leurs enfants; Godescal III seigneur de Morialmé,
de
Sautour, avoué de Fosse, chevalier en 1174 est témoin lors de l'héritage
du
comté de Namur au bénéfice du comte de Hainaut Baudoin V. Il participe à
la
croisade au côté de l'empereur de l'empire Romain Germanique; Fréderic
(1188-11898) il entre dans l'Ordre Hospitalier de Jérusalem (plus tard
chevaliers de
Malte) Ghislebert dit de lui qu'il était brâve, noble et riche. Alpaïs,
une de ses
sours sera abbesse de Nivelles ainsi que sa fille Béatrix. il sera marié à
Hawide de Ham.
Arnould IV sera le dernier de la famille à porter le titre de seigneur de
Morialmé , il sera avoué d'Hanzinnes, seigneur de Ham sur Heure, de
Loverval et
avoué de Fosse. Il participa à la bataille de Steppes du côté Liègeois en
1213
et épousa Jeanne ou Isabeau de Bailleul. de ce couple ne naîtra qu'une
fille
du nom de Elisabeth. Elle épousera Nicolas Ier de Condé et la seigneurie
passera dans la famille de Condé qui s'appelera Condé-Morialmé.
________________________________________________________________________

* John P. Ravilious
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's free at
http://www.aol.com. Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Peter Stewart

Re: Query: the lords of Morialm

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 23 apr 2007 13:17:05

"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177244417.548360.291200@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Peter,

Thanks for your replies, and suggestions.

The LOC includes _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_
in their online catalogue; with some luck, the necessary volume will
be available during a forthcoming fossick. I note also, reference to
Roland's Histoire généalogique de la maison de Rumigny-Florennes, in
vol. XIX (1881) of ASAN. Hopefully these two together will go far far
in straightening out these lineages.

I had completely forgotten about Roland's Rumigny-Florennes study, and that
I have a copy of it - now I have looked into this and also found the book by
Daniel Misonne that I mentioned before. A few comments are interspersed in
your table below:

On Apr 20, 9:28?am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
If you can get hold of _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_ 35
(1922), there is a study by Charles-Gustave Roland, Les seigneurs de
Morialmé avant le XVe sicle, on pp. 1-81. If you can't find it in a
library
or get a copy of the article, and you are keen enough, this issue can
obtained for 25 Euros, see
http://users.skynet.be/vieuxquartier/ca ... 02021.html.

Peter Stewart

Ther...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialm.

The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

1> <2
1) Godfrey = Alpaide de = 2) Elbert de = Hersende
of Jülich Hogarde I Florennes

Godfrey is believed to have been the count in Hainaut mentioned in a diploma
of Emperor Otto I in 958 ("in pago Heinia, in comitatu Godefridi") and a
hagiography written early in the 11th century ("Godefridus Heinonensis pagi
comes"). He died soon after the occurrence in 958, on a 23 December. This is
the same date given in the obituary of Florennes abbey for Hersende, wife of
Eilbert ("X Kal. Ian. Ob. Godefridus pater domni Arnulfi et Hersindis uxor
Eilberti").

Alpaide died on a 28 October ("Ob. Alpaidis mater Arnulfi"). Whether or not
she was married to Eilbert after the death of Godfrey is open to question.
Roland thought she was, and so did Misonne, both following the statement in
a spurious history from Waulsort abbey (founded by Eilbert) written in the
12th century. However, apart from this the only evidences connecting them
are first the earliest obituary of Florennes, that records the deaths of a
group mostly related to the founders (Arnulf's sons), in which both figure
but without any explicit link - as quoted above, Alpaide is described as
mother to Arnulf, and Eilbert as husband of Hersende - and secondly an
apparent error in a 10th-century addition to an account of the translation
of relics that calls the father of Arnulf's sons "proles" (issue) of a lord
named "Hilbertus", who could be identical with Eilbert. However, Eilbert was
clearly not his father, and Misonne argues that "proles" must indicate a
step-son rather than direct issue. I think it could just as well be quite
wrong, or could be an odd way of saying that Alpaide's son Arnulf was issue
of Eilbert's family, a blood relative in the succeeding generation, i.e
Alpaide herself could have been a sister of Eilbert, or Godfrey could have
been his close relative. Anyway, Arnulf inherited the lordship of Florennes
that had belonged to Eilbert when the latter died on 28 March 977. Misonne
was impressed by Eilbert and his wife appearing in the family group of
obituary notices, but didn't explain why he and Alpaide are only identified
by other relationships and not as spouses. Georges Despy in _Les chartes de
l'abbaye de Waulsort_ (Brussels, 1957) had maintained that they were not
married.

__________________________I___________________________
I I I I
Godfrey Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide Alpaide Gerard
lord of Morialmé I (?) = Etienne 'the Great'
d. bef 1015 I de Brakel Bishop of
I Cambrai 1013-1051

Alpaide is recorded as mother to Godfrey, Arnulf and Wery. The last was not
the same as Bishop Gerard of Cambrai, who died on 13 or 14 March 1048 and
belonged in the following generation. Wery, occurring in the Florennes
obituary as Wideric, died on 18 October ("Ob. Uuidericus frater Arnulfi").

______________I
I
Godfrey = Gisela
of Morialmé I

According to Roland, Bishop Gerard of Cambrai was a brother of this Godfrey,
son of Arnulf. Roland and Misonne both give Arnulf's not as Helvide, shown
above, but Ermentrude, allegedly a daughter of Godfrey the Captive, count of
Verdun by Mathild of Saxony. However, this is not supported by contemporary
evidence as far as I recall - I haven't looked into it thoroughly, but I see
that no such daughter is mentioned on the Henry Project page.

Peter Stewart

Janet

IGI

Legg inn av Janet » 23 apr 2007 15:01:03

This site might answer folks question
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... s.htm#Page


Janet

John P. Ravilious

Re: Query: the lords of Morialm

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 apr 2007 01:27:00

Dear Peter,

Thanks again for your suggestions re: Monsr. Roland's works.
Fortunately, the relevant volumes of ASAN (XIX and XXXV) were both
available at the LOC earlier, and I have obtained quite a bit of
detail from each "article" [lengthy as they are].

Digesting the material will take some time, although an initial
hasty review indicates (as your last post noted) that certainty in the
earliest generations will be wanting. I did note an interesting
marriage between Godfrey IV de Rumigny and Hawise de Roucy, concerning
which Roland extracted the following from Alberic de Trois-Fontaines:


' Soror autem regis Roberti Hadwidis Rainero comiti de Hainao fratri
Lamberti comitis de Lovanio peperit Beatricem, de qua comes Ebalus de
Roceio duas genuit filias Aelidem et Hadewidem.... De Hadewide vero
quam habuit Godefridus frater episcopi Gerardi Cameracensis processit
tota progenies de Ruminiaco cum appendiciis suis. ' [1]

Roland noted that Godfrey IV de Florennes et Rumigny was not the
brother of Gerard, bishop of Cambrai, as erroneously stated by Alberic
de Trois-Fontaines, but that this was rather concerning an earlier
generation in the family.

The descent from Hugh 'Capet' to the regicide Roger de Mortimer
will appear in the next post. There will be (I hope) some other
interesting results as further progress through these articles is
made.

Cheers,

John



NOTES:

[1] Roland, ASAN XIX:115, cites Alberic de Trois-Fontaines in
Monumenta Germaniae historica, t. XXIII, p. 783.



On Apr 23, 8:17�am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:1177244417.548360.291200@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Dear Peter,

    Thanks for your replies, and suggestions.

    The LOC includes _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_
in their online catalogue; with some luck, the necessary volume will
be available during a forthcoming fossick.  I note also, reference to
Roland's Histoire généalogique de la maison de Rumigny-Florennes, in
vol. XIX (1881) of ASAN.  Hopefully these two together will go far far
in straightening out these lineages.

I had completely forgotten about Roland's Rumigny-Florennes study, and that
I have a copy of it - now I have looked into this and also found the book by
Daniel Misonne that I mentioned before. A few comments are interspersed in
your table below:

On Apr 20, 9:28?am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:





If you can get hold of _Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur_ 35
(1922), there is a study by Charles-Gustave Roland, Les seigneurs de
Morialmé avant le XVe sicle, on pp. 1-81. If you can't find it in a
library
or get a copy of the article, and you are keen enough, this issue can
obtained for 25 Euros, see
http://users.skynet.be/vieuxquartier/ca ... 02021.html.

Peter Stewart

Ther...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

  An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialmé, near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialm.

  The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

  Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

  Cheers,

             John

_______________________________________________

         <1>                <2
1) Godfrey  = Alpaide de  = 2) Elbert de   = Hersende
of Jülich    Hogarde   I    Florennes

Godfrey is believed to have been the count in Hainaut mentioned in a diploma
of Emperor Otto I in 958 ("in pago Heinia, in comitatu Godefridi") and a
hagiography written early in the 11th century ("Godefridus Heinonensis pagi
comes"). He died soon after the occurrence in 958, on a 23 December. This is
the same date given in the obituary of Florennes abbey for Hersende, wife of
Eilbert ("X Kal. Ian. Ob. Godefridus pater domni Arnulfi et Hersindis uxor
Eilberti").

Alpaide died on a 28 October ("Ob. Alpaidis mater Arnulfi"). Whether or not
she was married to Eilbert after the death of Godfrey is open to question.
Roland thought she was, and so did Misonne, both following the statement in
a spurious history from Waulsort abbey (founded by Eilbert) written in the
12th century. However, apart from this the only evidences connecting them
are first the earliest obituary of Florennes, that records the deaths of a
group mostly related to the founders (Arnulf's sons), in which both figure
but without any explicit link - as quoted above, Alpaide is described as
mother to Arnulf, and Eilbert as husband of Hersende - and secondly an
apparent error in a 10th-century addition to an account of the translation
of relics that calls the father of Arnulf's sons "proles" (issue) of a lord
named "Hilbertus", who could be identical with Eilbert. However, Eilbert was
clearly not his father, and Misonne argues that "proles" must indicate a
step-son rather than direct issue. I think it could just as well be quite
wrong, or could be an odd way of saying that Alpaide's son Arnulf was issue
of Eilbert's family, a blood relative in the succeeding generation, i.e
Alpaide herself could have been a sister of Eilbert, or Godfrey could have
been his close relative. Anyway, Arnulf inherited the lordship of Florennes
that had belonged to Eilbert when the latter died on 28 March 977. Misonne
was impressed by Eilbert and his wife appearing in the family group of
obituary notices, but didn't explain why he and Alpaide are only identified
by other relationships and not as spouses. Georges Despy in _Les chartes de
l'abbaye de Waulsort_ (Brussels, 1957) had maintained that they were not
married.

 __________________________I___________________________
 I     I                I     I
Godfrey  Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide   Alpaide   Gerard
    lord of Morialmé I  (?)   = Etienne  'the Great'
     d. bef 1015   I      de Brakel  Bishop of
             I             Cambrai 1013-1051

Alpaide is recorded as mother to Godfrey, Arnulf and Wery. The last was not
the same as Bishop Gerard of Cambrai, who died on 13 or 14 March 1048 and
belonged in the following generation. Wery, occurring in the Florennes
obituary as Wideric, died on 18 October ("Ob. Uuidericus frater Arnulfi").

      ______________I
      I
    Godfrey    = Gisela
    of Morialmé  I

According to Roland, Bishop Gerard of Cambrai was a brother of this Godfrey,
son of Arnulf. Roland and Misonne both give Arnulf's not as Helvide, shown
above, but Ermentrude, allegedly a daughter of Godfrey the Captive, count of
Verdun by Mathild of Saxony. However, this is not supported by contemporary
evidence as far as I recall - I haven't looked into it thoroughly, but I see
that no such daughter is mentioned on the Henry Project page.

Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

John P. Ravilious

Re: Query: the lords of Morialm

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 apr 2007 01:44:21

Dear Peter, et al.,

Following is the Mortimer descent from Hugh 'Capet', via Hainaut,
Roucy and Rumigny.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________

1 Hugh 'Capet' of France
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 0941
Death: 24 Oct 0996
Burial: St. Denis
Occ: King of France 987 - 996
Father: Hugh of Paris (ca0895-0956)
Mother: Hedwig of the Empire (0922-0965)

Count of Paris 956 - 987

elected King of France, 1 June 987;
crowned King by Archbishop Adalbert of Rheims, 3 July 987[1]

Spouse: Adela of Aquitaine[2]
Birth: ca 0950
Death: 1004
Father: Guillaume I 'Tow-head' of Poitou (-0963)
Mother: Gerloc of Normandy
Marr: ca 0965

Children: Robert II (0972-1031)
Hawise (Hedwig)
Gisele


1.1 Hawise (Hedwig) of France[2]
----------------------------------------

' Soror autem regis Roberti Hadwidis Rainero comiti de Hainao
fratri Lamberti comitis de Lovanio peperit Beatricem, de qua
comes Ebalus de Roceio duas genuit filias Aelidem et
Hadewidem.... De Hadewide vero quam habuit Godefridus frater
episcopi Gerardi Cameracensis processit tota progenies de
Ruminiaco cum appendiciis suis. ' [Roland, ASAN XIX:115[3],
cites Alberic de Trois-Fontaines in Monumenta Germaniae
historica, t. XXIII, p. 783.]

~ Note: Roland noted [XIX:115[3]] that Godfrey IV de Florennes
et Rumigny was not the brother of Gerard, bishop of Cambrai,
as erroneously stated by Alberic de Trois-Fontaines.

cf. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 236 (Hainault)[4]

Spouse: Reginar IV, count of Hainault
Death: 1013, Mons[4]
Father: Reginar III of Hainault (-0973)
Mother: Adela (-0961)
Marr: ca 0995[4]

Children: Reginar V, count of Hainaut (->1039)
Beatrix


1.1.1 Beatrix of Hainault[2]
----------------------------------------

' Beatricem, de qua comes Ebalus de Roceio duas genuit filias
Aelidem et Hadewidem.... ' [Roland, ASAN XIX:115[3], cites
Alberic de Trois-Fontaines in Monumenta Germaniae
historica, t. XXIII, p. 783.]

cf. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 236[4]

Spouse: Ebles I de Roucy
Death: 11 May 1033[4]
Father: [conjectured] Raynald de Roucy (-~0972)
Mother: [conjectured] Alberada of Lorraine (-0973)

Children: Adela, m. Hildouin IV de Montdidier
Hawise


1.1.1.1 Hawise de Roucy
----------------------------------------

cf. Roland, ASAN XIX:113, 115[3]
Stewart Baldwin, 'Oldest Female Line?'[2]

Spouse: Godfrey IV, seigneur de Rumigny
Father: Godfrey III de Rumigny (-ca1050)
Mother: Gisela

Children: Godfrey V, seigneur de Rumigny (dsp)
Petronilla, m. Raoul de Viesville
Nicholas I


1.1.1.1.1 Nicholas I de Rumigny
----------------------------------------

seigneur de Rumigny

cf. Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, 28 (pp. 46-47,
and note <8>)[5]
Roland, ASAN XIX:121, 124[3]

Spouse: NN

Children: Nicholas II (->1153)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Nicholas II de Rumigny
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1153[6]
Occ: seigneur de Rumigny

seigneur de Rumigny[7],[8]


cf. Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, 28 (pp. 46-47, and
note <8>)[5]
Roland, ASAN XIX:125-7[3]

Spouse: Alix of Hainaut[7]
Death: aft 1152[8],[6]
Father: Baldwin II, count of Hainault (-1098)
Mother: Ida of Louvain (-ca1139)

Children: Nicholas III, seigneur de Rumigny
Baldwin, clerk
Beatrice (->1191)
Alix
Richilda


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Beatrice de Rumigny[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1191[6]

' Soror sepedicti filii Balduini et Yde, scilicet comitis
Hanoniensis Balduini, una, Alidis nomine, viri nobili de
Ruminio nupsit, que filium habuit Nicholaum, qui et Ruminium
et Florinas castra possedit, et filias Beatricem et Alidem
et Richeldem, et tres quarum nescio nomina. '
[ Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, 29 (pp. 51-52)[5]]

' Alia soror Beatrix scilicet, nupsit viro nobili Gossuino
de Montibus, viro nobilissimo satisque potenti in
Hanonia ....' [ Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense,
29 (p. 52)[5]]


cf. Roland, ASAN XIX:140[3]

Spouse: Gossuin III, seigneur de Baudour et de Boussu-lez-Mons
Death: bef 1177[6]
Father: Gossuin II de Mons (-<1126)
Mother: Ida d'Ath (-ca1138)

Children: Ida
Matilda
Alice (-<1207)
Rixa
Beatrice
Agnes


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Alice de Mons[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1207[6]

Spouse: Roger de Conde, seigneur de Conde
Death: aft 1210[6]

Children: Nicholas (-1230)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Nicholas de Conde
----------------------------------------
Death: 1230
Occ: seigneur de Conde

sieur de Bailleul[7]

Spouse: Elizabeth de Morialme
Death: 1249
Father: Arnoul II, seigneur de Morialme (-1218)
Mother: Joice de Bailleul

Children: Jacques, seigneur de Conde et Bailleul
and sieur de Morialme
NN


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 NN de Conde[9]
----------------------------------------

name not proven to be Isabel, cf. Leo van de Pas[10]

previously identified as a daughter of Jacques de Conde; now
as shown, per corrections in CP Vol XIV, p. 381, citing
'Joseph Noel, _Grands Seigneur d'Autrefois, Les Haut-Voues
et Dames-Avoueresses de Fosse_, 1957, p. 31. _Ex inform_.
Andrew Moriarty'[11]

Spouse: Enguerrand de Fiennes, seigneur de Fiennes [9]
Death: bef 1265[9]
Father: Guillaume de Fiennes (-~1240)
Mother: Agnes de Dammartin

Children: William (-1302)
Maud (-<1298)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Fiennes
----------------------------------------
Death: 11 Jul 1302, Battle of Courtrai[12],[13]
Occ: lord of Fiennes[13]

knight, of Wendover, co. Bucks.[10] and Rothersthorpe, co.
Northants.[14]
younger son

' William de Fenles, lord of Fenles', issued letters patent
pledging the manor of Martock, Somerset to the Queen
(Eleanor of Castile, his cousin) who at his request had
given a bond in £1,000 to Sir Humphrey de Bohun with his
sister Maud de Fiennes in marriage, 18 June 1275 [CP[13],
in re: CCR 3 Edw I, II:190-191, mem. 4[15]]

Spouse: Blanche de Brienne
Death: 1302[12]
Father: Jean de Brienne, Grand Bouteiller of France
Mother: Jeanne de Chateaudun (~1227-)
Marr: 1266[16]

Children: Margaret (1268-1333)
Joan [conjectured]
John (-1339)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Margaret de Fiennes
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1268[17]
Death: 7 Feb 1333[13]

her identification, and that of her sister Joan, by John Carmi
Parsons:
' Margaret de Mortimer too was once thought to have been the
daughter of (to quote the Latin history of Wigmore priory, a
foundation of the Mortimer family) "domini Willielmi de
Fendles de Hispania," but on the basis of the arms on her seal
she is now known to have been born a Fiennes (the Latin
history is edited in Dugdale, _Monasticon_ [Record
Commission edition (1819-46), vi, p. 351; _Complete
Peerage_, ix, p. 283, s.v. "Mortimer").'[18]

probably had the manor of Kingsland, co. Hereford in dower
(received charter for fair and market from King Edward I,
14 Jul 1306)[19]

birth date more likely ca. 1268, based on estimated birth date
of mother[17]

Spouse: Sir Edmund de Mortimer
Birth: bef 1252[20]
Death: 17 Jul 1304, Battle of Buelt[20]
Father: Roger de Mortimer (ca1231-1282)
Mother: Maud de Braose (-<1300)
Marr: bef 6 Jan 1285[20],[13]

Children: Maud, m. Sir Theobald de Verdun
Sir Roger de Mortimer (executed 1330)
Joan, nun
Elizabeth, nun
John
Hugh
Walter, clerk
Edmund, clerk
Eleanor, m. William de Kyme


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Roger de Mortimer
----------------------------------------
Birth: 25 Apr 1287[21]
Death: 29 Nov 1330, Tyburn (executed)[22]
Burial: Church of the Grey Friars, Shrewsbury[13]
Occ: Earl of March

of Wigmore, co. Hereford
Baron of Wigmore
tenant in chief in Thornton and Melbourne,
Harthill wapentake (East Riding), co. Yorks. [VCH III: 183[23]]


' Rogiers de Mortemer ', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland; fought in the siege of Caerlaverock, Jul 1300
: his arms are recorded as
' Barry of six a chief paly the corners gironny or and azure
overall an escutcheon ermine ' (Caerlaverock Roll K 72[24])

supporter of Thomas, Earl of Lancaster against King Edward II;
captured following the battle of Boroughbridge, 22 March 1321/2
and the return of the Despensers to power; sentenced to death
together with uncle Roger de Mortimer, then commuted to life
imprisonment 22 July 1322.
Escaped from the Tower 1 August 1324 and fled via Dover to France[25]

established liaison with Queen Isabella (of England) in France;
invaded England at Orwell (Suffolk) with small force from
Hainaut 24 Sept 1326
defeated and executed the Despensers; deposed Edward II at
Kenilworth, January 1326/7[26]

created Earl of March Oct 1328[13]
lover of Isabella (Queen of Edward II), and conspirator in his
deposition, 1327[22].
Executed at Tyburn after palace revolution of 1330 by Edward III.[13]

His honours were forfeit by his attainder[13]



Spouse: Joan de Geneville
Birth: 2 Feb 1285[20],[13]
Death: 19 Oct 1356[13]
Father: Piers de Geneville (~1258-<1292)
Mother: Jeanne de Lusignan (~1262-~1323)
Marr: bef 6 Oct 1306[13]

Children: Sir Edmund (~1306-1331)
Margaret (>1307-1337)
Joan
Sir Geoffrey
Sir Roger
Katherine (-1369)
Maud
Agnes
John
Blanche
Beatrice


1. Pierre Riche (trans. by Michael I. Allen), "The Carolingians,"
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1993.
2. Stewart Baldwin, "Oldest Female Line?," Nov 20, 1996, GEN-MEDIEVAL-
L@rootsweb.com.
3. Charles-Gustave Roland, "Histoire généalogique de la maison de
Rumigny-Florennes," Annales de la Société Archéologique de Namur,
Namur, Namur, 1891 (Vol. XIX), pp. 59 et seq., courtesy Google books.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1999 [4th series], Band I.2 -
Premysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen, die Hauser Hessen,
Wurttemberg und Zahringen, First series by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu
Isenburg, continued second series by Frank, Baron Freytag von
Loringhoven.
5. Leon Vanderkindere, ed., "La Chronique de Gislebert de Mons,"
Bruxelles: Libraire Kiessling et C'ie, 1904, courtesy Googlebooks.
6. Diane Shephard, "Ancestors of Catherine Baillon, Suzanne
d`Ailleboust & Marie Martin - #3," Sept 3, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-
L@rootsweb.com, cites ES (Europaische Stammtafeln), ancestry of
Gossuin of Mons, and Anselm of St. Pol, amongst others, discussed also
with Gerard Poissonier.
7. Kay Allen, AG, "Re: John de BOhun m 1325 Alice de Arundel," July
28, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, confirming descent from Baldwin
II of Hainaut to Isabel de Conde, citing G. Andrews Moriarty [his
writings, currently in notebooks in the collection of the NEGHS].
8. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Flanders and Hainault," Paul
Theroff's Dynastic Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/
theroff/.
9. G. Edward Allen, "Fiennes," Society of Medieval Genealogy
(@rootsweb.com), 25 Mar 1999 (GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com).
10. Leo van de Pas, "William Fiennes, Sire de Fiennes et de Tingry," 3
Feb 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, leovdpas@iinet.net.au.
11. Ian Fettes and Adrian Channing, "Re: John de Bohun m 1325 Alice de
Arundel," July 28, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, GEN-
MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
12. Ed Mann, "Jean de Brienne," Society of Medieval Genealogy
(http://www.rootsweb.com), 28 Mar 1999 (on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com).
13. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
14. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
15. "Calendar of the Charter Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, London, 1898, Vol. II (Henry III - Edward I, 1257-1300), pp.
190-191, letters patent of William de Fiennes for the marriage of his
sister Maud to Humphrey de Bohun, heir of the earl of Hereford, 1912,
vol. 4 (1-14 Edward III, 1327 - 1341, p. 475, grants confirmed by the
king 12 July 1340, along with a royal charter dated 13 December 4
Edward III, at the request of Walter, abbot of Garendon., the list of
grants runs through pp. 472-481, Citations provided by Chris Phillips
(cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk).
16. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge," [ " European Family
Trees: Family Trees for the History of European States, New Series
" ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1978-1995 [3rd
series], First series by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued
second series by Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
17. John Carmi Parsons, "Wives of Jean de Brienne (d. 1296)," Sept 4
1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reply from Leo van de Pas, same
date.
18. John Carmi Parsons, "de Fiennes de la Plaunche," Aug 30, 1998, GEN-
MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites the wardrobe account book of Eleanor of
Castile, queen of England, 'for the last year of her life (1289-90)',
(Parsons, _The Court and Household of Eleanor of Castile in 1290_,
[Toronto, 1977], pp. 41-55.).
19. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/,
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North
Duffield.
20. "Ancestors of Edmund de Mortimer," David Utzinger UTZ@aol.com,
4 August 2000.
21. Douglas Richardson, "Mortimer account," November 19, 2002, paper
copy: library of John Ravilious, cites sources for history of Mortimer
family, including Wigmore chronicle (in Dugdale, Monasticon
Anglicanum).
22. David Williamson, "Brewer's British Royalty," Cassell/Wellington
House, 1996.
23. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York, East
Riding," Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical Research,
Oxford Univ. Press, 1969, Vol. III.
24. Brian Timms, "The Caerlaverock Roll," an occasional roll of arms
of those having fought in the siege of Caerlaverock, July 1300,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/caerlaverockK.html, This is an
occasional roll, listing those present in the siege of Caerlaverock,
The original blazon is from Gerard G Brault, "Eight Thirteenth Century
Rolls of Arms", Pennsylvania State University Press, 1973.
25. Chris Phillips, "Re: Burial Place of Roger de Mortimer (d. 1330),"
September 15, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, cites CP
vol. VIII pp. 436-7; also Cal. Patent Rolls, 1321-4.
26. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999 (first US pub. in 1991; in
Britain, 1990), Vol. I: Trial by Battle.






On Apr 23, 8:27 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Peter,

Thanks again for your suggestions re: Monsr. Roland's works.
Fortunately, the relevant volumes of ASAN (XIX and XXXV) were both
available at the LOC earlier, and I have obtained quite a bit of
detail from each "article" [lengthy as they are].

Digesting the material will take some time, although an initial
hasty review indicates (as your last post noted) that certainty in the
earliest generations will be wanting. I did note an interesting
marriage between Godfrey IV de Rumigny and Hawise de Roucy, concerning
which Roland extracted the following from Alberic de Trois-Fontaines:

' Soror autem regis Roberti Hadwidis Rainero comiti de Hainao fratri
Lamberti comitis de Lovanio peperit Beatricem, de qua comes Ebalus de
Roceio duas genuit filias Aelidem et Hadewidem.... De Hadewide vero
quam habuit Godefridus frater episcopi Gerardi Cameracensis processit
tota progenies de Ruminiaco cum appendiciis suis. ' [1]

Roland noted that Godfrey IV de Florennes et Rumigny was not the
brother of Gerard, bishop of Cambrai, as erroneously stated by Alberic
de Trois-Fontaines, but that this was rather concerning an earlier
generation in the family.

The descent from Hugh 'Capet' to the regicide Roger de Mortimer
will appear in the next post. There will be (I hope) some other
interesting results as further progress through these articles is
made.

Cheers,

John

NOTES:

[1] Roland, ASAN XIX:115, cites Alberic de Trois-Fontaines in
Monumenta Germaniae historica, t. XXIII, p. 783.

On Apr 23, 8:17?am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:



"John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:1177244417.548360.291200@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Dear Peter,

? ? Thanks for your replies, and suggestions.

? ? The LOC includes _Annales de la Soci? arch?ogique de Namur_
in their online catalogue; with some luck, the necessary volume will
be available during a forthcoming fossick. ?I note also, reference to
Roland's Histoire g?alogique de la maison de Rumigny-Florennes, in
vol. XIX (1881) of ASAN. ?Hopefully these two together will go far far
in straightening out these lineages.

I had completely forgotten about Roland's Rumigny-Florennes study, and that
I have a copy of it - now I have looked into this and also found the book by
Daniel Misonne that I mentioned before. A few comments are interspersed in
your table below:

On Apr 20, 9:28?am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

If you can get hold of _Annales de la Soci? arch?ogique de Namur_ 35
(1922), there is a study by Charles-Gustave Roland, Les seigneurs de
Morialm?vant le XVe sicle, on pp. 1-81. If you can't find it in a
library
or get a copy of the article, and you are keen enough, this issue can
obtained for 25 Euros, see
http://users.skynet.be/vieuxquartier/ca ... 02021.html.

Peter Stewart

Ther...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.1095.1177028396.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Thursday, 19 April, 2007

Hello All,

? An interesting page on Wikipedia sets forth an interesting if
undocumented pedigree of the lords of Morialm?near Namur [1].
This lineage is of interest, as it involves an often overlooked
ascent of the lords of Fiennes, ancestors of the Bohun Earls of
Hereford, the later Mortimers of Wigmore (including the well-known
regicide Sir Roger de Mortimer) and good many others, royal and
non-royal. The last of this line is usually identified as
Arnoul 'II', but this numeration appears to account only for the
descendants of Godescal de Morialm.

? The association of Gerard 'the Great', Bishop of Cambrai, with
this family is from the text of a donation, the confirmation of
which is dated 1015. Before proceeding with the time-consuming
project of transcribing same, I wonder if any of the list (esp.
Peter Stewart) might have direct knowledge as to the accuracy of
this lineage as reconstructed below?

? Any and all related documentation, comment and corrections
are welcome.

? Cheers,

? ? ? ? ? ? ?John

_______________________________________________

? ? ? ? ?<1> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?<2
1) Godfrey ?= Alpaide de ?= 2) Elbert de ? = Hersende
of J?lich ? ?Hogarde ? I ? ?Florennes

Godfrey is believed to have been the count in Hainaut mentioned in a diploma
of Emperor Otto I in 958 ("in pago Heinia, in comitatu Godefridi") and a
hagiography written early in the 11th century ("Godefridus Heinonensis pagi
comes"). He died soon after the occurrence in 958, on a 23 December. This is
the same date given in the obituary of Florennes abbey for Hersende, wife of
Eilbert ("X Kal. Ian. Ob. Godefridus pater domni Arnulfi et Hersindis uxor
Eilberti").

Alpaide died on a 28 October ("Ob. Alpaidis mater Arnulfi"). Whether or not
she was married to Eilbert after the death of Godfrey is open to question.
Roland thought she was, and so did Misonne, both following the statement in
a spurious history from Waulsort abbey (founded by Eilbert) written in the
12th century. However, apart from this the only evidences connecting them
are first the earliest obituary of Florennes, that records the deaths of a
group mostly related to the founders (Arnulf's sons), in which both figure
but without any explicit link - as quoted above, Alpaide is described as
mother to Arnulf, and Eilbert as husband of Hersende - and secondly an
apparent error in a 10th-century addition to an account of the translation
of relics that calls the father of Arnulf's sons "proles" (issue) of a lord
named "Hilbertus", who could be identical with Eilbert. However, Eilbert was
clearly not his father, and Misonne argues that "proles" must indicate a
step-son rather than direct issue. I think it could just as well be quite
wrong, or could be an odd way of saying that Alpaide's son Arnulf was issue
of Eilbert's family, a blood relative in the succeeding generation, i.e
Alpaide herself could have been a sister of Eilbert, or Godfrey could have
been his close relative. Anyway, Arnulf inherited the lordship of Florennes
that had belonged to Eilbert when the latter died on 28 March 977. Misonne
was impressed by Eilbert and his wife appearing in the family group of
obituary notices, but didn't explain why he and Alpaide are only identified
by other relationships and not as spouses. Georges Despy in _Les chartes de
l'abbaye de Waulsort_ (Brussels, 1957) had maintained that they were not
married.

?__________________________I___________________________
?I ? ? I ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I ? ? I
Godfrey ?Arnulf [Arnoul] = Helvide ? Alpaide ? Gerard
? ? lord of Morialm? ?(?) ? = Etienne ?'the Great'
? ? ?d. bef 1015 ? I ? ? ?de Brakel ?Bishop of
? ? ? ? ? ? ?I ? ? ? ? ? ? Cambrai 1013-1051

Alpaide is recorded as mother to Godfrey, Arnulf and Wery. The last was not
the same as Bishop Gerard of Cambrai, who died on 13 or 14 March 1048 and
belonged in the following generation. Wery, occurring in the Florennes
obituary as Wideric, died on 18 October ("Ob. Uuidericus frater Arnulfi").

? ? ? ______________I
? ? ? I
? ? Godfrey ? ?= Gisela
? ? of Morialm?I

According to Roland, Bishop Gerard of Cambrai was a brother of this Godfrey,
son of Arnulf. Roland and Misonne both give Arnulf's not as Helvide, shown
above, but Ermentrude, allegedly a daughter of Godfrey the Captive, count of
Verdun by Mathild of Saxony. However, this is not supported by contemporary
evidence as far as I recall - I haven't looked into it thoroughly, but I see
that no such daughter is mentioned on the Henry Project page.

Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Query: the lords of Morialm

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 24 apr 2007 16:02:38

On 23 Apr 2007 17:44:21 -0700, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
wrote:

[snip]

Spouse: Ebles I de Roucy
Death: 11 May 1033[4]
Father: [conjectured] Raynald de Roucy (-~0972)
Mother: [conjectured] Alberada of Lorraine (-0973)

[snip]

This is the first time I have ever seen this conjectured parentage for
Ebles of Roucy. If true (which I doubt), it would give an awfully
long chronology. The conjectures I have seen regarding the parentage
of Ebles involve one or two intervening generations.

Stewart Baldwin

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»