Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John P. DuLong
Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Today the issue of Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne
française (SGCF) with the Longueval research was published. While I
have not yet received my copy, R.-Yves Gagné, co-author of the article
with Laurent Kokanosky, a French national, has told me that the article
shows how Mathieu and Charles Amiot, and Toussaint Ledran, are
descendants of Louis VIII of France through Marguerite de Barbançon,
wife of Robert de Joyeuse, comte de Grandpré, through an humble branch
of the Joyeuse family. Gagné and Kokanosky are the first to make this
rather obscure and previously unpublished connection with the comte de
Grandpré. Our ancestors are also descendants of an old powerful family
of the city of Verdun, des Ancherins.
Please note that M. Gagné pointed out to me that the royal connection
comes in only after about 30 pages through the article, as the main
interest of the co-authors was to uncover the real places of origin of
our Canadian settlers, and they consider that the lineage to royalty as
being only a secondary detail. Consequently, they did not get into
debates concerning lineages found on the Internet that they discarded as
against the evidence, and they hope that the reader will not jump to
conclusions based on what they see on the Internet only. The article
has over 40 pages, so I am convinced that it is worthwhile reading it
slowly and completely.
Considering the immense amount of work necessary to prepare this
article, the authors hope that others will respect their intellectual
property rights as well as the SGCF's copyright and not post complete
details of their findings online. Rather, interested parties should
order copies of the Mémoires from the SGCF.
The address for ordering a copy of this issue is:
Société généalogique canadienne-française
3440, rue Davidson
Montréal, QC H1W 2Z5
CANADA
Ask for the Mémoires, vol. 57, no 1, cahier 251, printemps 2007. The
cost of an issue is $10.50 Canadian or USA. Make your check payable to
either SGCF or Société généalogique canadienne-française.
JP
française (SGCF) with the Longueval research was published. While I
have not yet received my copy, R.-Yves Gagné, co-author of the article
with Laurent Kokanosky, a French national, has told me that the article
shows how Mathieu and Charles Amiot, and Toussaint Ledran, are
descendants of Louis VIII of France through Marguerite de Barbançon,
wife of Robert de Joyeuse, comte de Grandpré, through an humble branch
of the Joyeuse family. Gagné and Kokanosky are the first to make this
rather obscure and previously unpublished connection with the comte de
Grandpré. Our ancestors are also descendants of an old powerful family
of the city of Verdun, des Ancherins.
Please note that M. Gagné pointed out to me that the royal connection
comes in only after about 30 pages through the article, as the main
interest of the co-authors was to uncover the real places of origin of
our Canadian settlers, and they consider that the lineage to royalty as
being only a secondary detail. Consequently, they did not get into
debates concerning lineages found on the Internet that they discarded as
against the evidence, and they hope that the reader will not jump to
conclusions based on what they see on the Internet only. The article
has over 40 pages, so I am convinced that it is worthwhile reading it
slowly and completely.
Considering the immense amount of work necessary to prepare this
article, the authors hope that others will respect their intellectual
property rights as well as the SGCF's copyright and not post complete
details of their findings online. Rather, interested parties should
order copies of the Mémoires from the SGCF.
The address for ordering a copy of this issue is:
Société généalogique canadienne-française
3440, rue Davidson
Montréal, QC H1W 2Z5
CANADA
Ask for the Mémoires, vol. 57, no 1, cahier 251, printemps 2007. The
cost of an issue is $10.50 Canadian or USA. Make your check payable to
either SGCF or Société généalogique canadienne-française.
JP
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Thanks very much for this advance information, John. This is great news
and will provide lots of new avenues to research. I've been watching the
mail every day for this article, and it promises to be very interesting.
Roger LeBlanc
John P. DuLong wrote:
and will provide lots of new avenues to research. I've been watching the
mail every day for this article, and it promises to be very interesting.
Roger LeBlanc
John P. DuLong wrote:
Today the issue of Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne
française (SGCF) with the Longueval research was published. While I
have not yet received my copy, R.-Yves Gagné, co-author of the article
with Laurent Kokanosky, a French national, has told me that the article
shows how Mathieu and Charles Amiot, and Toussaint Ledran, are
descendants of Louis VIII of France through Marguerite de Barbançon,
wife of Robert de Joyeuse, comte de Grandpré, through an humble branch
of the Joyeuse family. Gagné and Kokanosky are the first to make this
rather obscure and previously unpublished connection with the comte de
Grandpré. Our ancestors are also descendants of an old powerful family
of the city of Verdun, des Ancherins.
Please note that M. Gagné pointed out to me that the royal connection
comes in only after about 30 pages through the article, as the main
interest of the co-authors was to uncover the real places of origin of
our Canadian settlers, and they consider that the lineage to royalty as
being only a secondary detail. Consequently, they did not get into
debates concerning lineages found on the Internet that they discarded as
against the evidence, and they hope that the reader will not jump to
conclusions based on what they see on the Internet only. The article
has over 40 pages, so I am convinced that it is worthwhile reading it
slowly and completely.
Considering the immense amount of work necessary to prepare this
article, the authors hope that others will respect their intellectual
property rights as well as the SGCF's copyright and not post complete
details of their findings online. Rather, interested parties should
order copies of the Mémoires from the SGCF.
The address for ordering a copy of this issue is:
Société généalogique canadienne-française
3440, rue Davidson
Montréal, QC H1W 2Z5
CANADA
Ask for the Mémoires, vol. 57, no 1, cahier 251, printemps 2007. The
cost of an issue is $10.50 Canadian or USA. Make your check payable to
either SGCF or Société généalogique canadienne-française.
JP
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
It will be a few days for the Mémoires to be mailed and get to your
mailbox. But if you live in Québec, I would hope you will have it in
your hands within a week. For us Franco-Americans it will probably take
two weeks or even a little longer to cross the border.
Laying aside the royal gateway in this Longueval research, I look
forward to seeing what has been uncovered about the Amiots in France. I
am confident that the authors are going to give us details about this
important French-Canadian family that have never been published before.
This research should serve as a model on how to pursue tracing the
origins of other French-Canadian families beyond finding the baptism
record of the immigrant, worthy as that may be. I am curious to see the
various records used and where they were located.
Perhaps this report will inspire others to extend their French-Canadian
lineages back in France. Nevertheless, it will be difficult for anyone
else to match the level of skill and dedication that Gagné and Kokanosky
brought to this research project. If we are going to uncover more royal
gateways for French Canadians, then we must see more in-depth research
projects like the Longueval project. Of course not every project is
going to result in a royal gateway, but tracing back bourgeois and minor
noble families back several generations is also worthwhile.
By the way, M. Gagné is currently engaged in tracing the ancestry of
Guillaume Daoust back in France. I understand he is making progress.
As I descend from Daoust, I look forward to seeing the results of this
project several years from now. If you also have Daoust in your
ancestry, then please visit the webpage describing this project and
consider donating to support the project. The webpage is at
http://www.habitant.org/daoust. I know from working on the Baillon and
Le Neuf projects with a team of experienced genealogists, including M.
Gagné, that doing research in France on bourgeois and noble families is
expensive, challenging, and takes time and patience.
JP
Thanks very much for this advance information, John. This is great news
and will provide lots of new avenues to research. I've been watching the
mail every day for this article, and it promises to be very interesting.
Roger LeBlanc
It will be a few days for the Mémoires to be mailed and get to your
mailbox. But if you live in Québec, I would hope you will have it in
your hands within a week. For us Franco-Americans it will probably take
two weeks or even a little longer to cross the border.
Laying aside the royal gateway in this Longueval research, I look
forward to seeing what has been uncovered about the Amiots in France. I
am confident that the authors are going to give us details about this
important French-Canadian family that have never been published before.
This research should serve as a model on how to pursue tracing the
origins of other French-Canadian families beyond finding the baptism
record of the immigrant, worthy as that may be. I am curious to see the
various records used and where they were located.
Perhaps this report will inspire others to extend their French-Canadian
lineages back in France. Nevertheless, it will be difficult for anyone
else to match the level of skill and dedication that Gagné and Kokanosky
brought to this research project. If we are going to uncover more royal
gateways for French Canadians, then we must see more in-depth research
projects like the Longueval project. Of course not every project is
going to result in a royal gateway, but tracing back bourgeois and minor
noble families back several generations is also worthwhile.
By the way, M. Gagné is currently engaged in tracing the ancestry of
Guillaume Daoust back in France. I understand he is making progress.
As I descend from Daoust, I look forward to seeing the results of this
project several years from now. If you also have Daoust in your
ancestry, then please visit the webpage describing this project and
consider donating to support the project. The webpage is at
http://www.habitant.org/daoust. I know from working on the Baillon and
Le Neuf projects with a team of experienced genealogists, including M.
Gagné, that doing research in France on bourgeois and noble families is
expensive, challenging, and takes time and patience.
JP
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:29:01 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
Usually, I see that the Memoires are close from home when I see an
increase in the number of subscription to the SGCF databases. I saw
that last week and thought some people already got their Memoires
but it was not that.
I don't know. Very few people will take the time to read this kind
of old documents even if they have them at the library. Most
genealogists I know that work on Medieval lines in Quebec (I am afraid
Yves is the only exception) will use only printed genealogies like
Pere Anselme. If you take the Billy line, for example, because
Rene Jette indicated parents in his dictionary (even if they are
nothing more than wild guesses), I think no one will attempt to read
all the various D'Hozier ebooks on Gallica to try to find any other
possible Billy line and this is just easier that reading old
manuscripts. There is some bibliography to help (Saffroy or
Arnaud) and the CD-ROM from Bib. Gen. but most references are not
available in Montreal.
At this time, I am quite busy on rewriting Tanguay to 1765 (my goal
for the next 2 years, i.e. I rewrote the Red Drouin, I am now
rewriting Jetté and then I will rewrite Tanguay) and when this will
be completed (i.e. with all children in families until 1765 including
those in Michigan, Illinois and Louisiana), then I will focus on the
medieval lines.
Have you noticed that a lot of the "noble" families found in Jetté,
for example, have no known French record at all ? A lot
of them are supposed to have a government job because of their
relatives but no one has yet tried to link them to known noble
families. For example, we have a De Couagne family (see
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 004100.php )
from Indre. This family has descendants (my in-law is one of them).
In Heraldique et Genealogie, I found a De Coigne noble family in the
same area, with a 130-year gap but a connection is likely in my
opinion (same area, same name, name not too common, the immigrant
was the maitre d'hotel of gouverneur de Frontenac).
Why not adding some Paypal donation buttons on these pages ?
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
Thanks very much for this advance information, John. This is great news
and will provide lots of new avenues to research. I've been watching the
mail every day for this article, and it promises to be very interesting.
Roger LeBlanc
It will be a few days for the Mémoires to be mailed and get to your
mailbox. But if you live in Québec, I would hope you will have it in
your hands within a week. For us Franco-Americans it will probably take
two weeks or even a little longer to cross the border.
Usually, I see that the Memoires are close from home when I see an
increase in the number of subscription to the SGCF databases. I saw
that last week and thought some people already got their Memoires
but it was not that.
Laying aside the royal gateway in this Longueval research, I look
forward to seeing what has been uncovered about the Amiots in France. I
am confident that the authors are going to give us details about this
important French-Canadian family that have never been published before.
This research should serve as a model on how to pursue tracing the
origins of other French-Canadian families beyond finding the baptism
I don't know. Very few people will take the time to read this kind
of old documents even if they have them at the library. Most
genealogists I know that work on Medieval lines in Quebec (I am afraid
Yves is the only exception) will use only printed genealogies like
Pere Anselme. If you take the Billy line, for example, because
Rene Jette indicated parents in his dictionary (even if they are
nothing more than wild guesses), I think no one will attempt to read
all the various D'Hozier ebooks on Gallica to try to find any other
possible Billy line and this is just easier that reading old
manuscripts. There is some bibliography to help (Saffroy or
Arnaud) and the CD-ROM from Bib. Gen. but most references are not
available in Montreal.
At this time, I am quite busy on rewriting Tanguay to 1765 (my goal
for the next 2 years, i.e. I rewrote the Red Drouin, I am now
rewriting Jetté and then I will rewrite Tanguay) and when this will
be completed (i.e. with all children in families until 1765 including
those in Michigan, Illinois and Louisiana), then I will focus on the
medieval lines.
Have you noticed that a lot of the "noble" families found in Jetté,
for example, have no known French record at all ? A lot
of them are supposed to have a government job because of their
relatives but no one has yet tried to link them to known noble
families. For example, we have a De Couagne family (see
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 004100.php )
from Indre. This family has descendants (my in-law is one of them).
In Heraldique et Genealogie, I found a De Coigne noble family in the
same area, with a 130-year gap but a connection is likely in my
opinion (same area, same name, name not too common, the immigrant
was the maitre d'hotel of gouverneur de Frontenac).
record of the immigrant, worthy as that may be. I am curious to see the
various records used and where they were located.
Perhaps this report will inspire others to extend their French-Canadian
lineages back in France. Nevertheless, it will be difficult for anyone
else to match the level of skill and dedication that Gagné and Kokanosky
brought to this research project. If we are going to uncover more royal
gateways for French Canadians, then we must see more in-depth research
projects like the Longueval project. Of course not every project is
going to result in a royal gateway, but tracing back bourgeois and minor
noble families back several generations is also worthwhile.
By the way, M. Gagné is currently engaged in tracing the ancestry of
Guillaume Daoust back in France. I understand he is making progress.
As I descend from Daoust, I look forward to seeing the results of this
project several years from now. If you also have Daoust in your
ancestry, then please visit the webpage describing this project and
consider donating to support the project. The webpage is at
http://www.habitant.org/daoust. I know from working on the Baillon and
Le Neuf projects with a team of experienced genealogists, including M.
Gagné, that doing research in France on bourgeois and noble families is
expensive, challenging, and takes time and patience.
Why not adding some Paypal donation buttons on these pages ?
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Apr 18, 3:29 am, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
This research should serve as a model on how to pursue tracing the
origins of other French-Canadian families beyond finding the baptism
record of the immigrant, worthy as that may be. I am curious to see
the
various records used and where they were located.
John, there is only one way to pursue any research: the use of the
three A's: "Authentic deeds, authentic deeds and authentic deeds".
This is how Father Archange Godbout worked, this is how René Jetté
worked, and there is no other choice but to follow the path of our
distinguished predecessors.
Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné
This research should serve as a model on how to pursue tracing the
origins of other French-Canadian families beyond finding the baptism
record of the immigrant, worthy as that may be. I am curious to see
the
various records used and where they were located.
John, there is only one way to pursue any research: the use of the
three A's: "Authentic deeds, authentic deeds and authentic deeds".
This is how Father Archange Godbout worked, this is how René Jetté
worked, and there is no other choice but to follow the path of our
distinguished predecessors.
Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:33:10 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
I got a copy this morning. This article is fascinating !
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
Today the issue of Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne
française (SGCF) with the Longueval research was published. While I
have not yet received my copy, R.-Yves Gagné, co-author of the article
with Laurent Kokanosky, a French national, has told me that the article
shows how Mathieu and Charles Amiot, and Toussaint Ledran, are
I got a copy this morning. This article is fascinating !
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Jean-Philippe GÉRARD
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid> wrote:
Some remarks.
Most of the "d'Hozier ebooks" on Gallica are collections of blazons
(armoriaux). Interest for genealogy almost null. Except books about
"ordre de Saint-Louis" and the "Ecoles militaires", the interest is very
limited.
To be noble is not a sufficient condition to be present in the "Cabinet
des titres" or have a mention in "Heraldique & Généalogie". If nobody in
the family had has to prove his nobility, there will be very few things.
Sometimes a family became noble and died out quickly. In the nobility,
there was also a hierarchy. A part of the nobility was poorer than many
middle-class man and was diluted in this middle-class.
I am not persuaded that it was an employment reserved for the nobility.
"Gouverneur de Frontenac" is a servant, may be of the king. And the
"maitre d'hotel" of the "Gouverneur" is a servant (between sevarals) of
a servant.
I had an ancestor who was, according to the acts, captain or caretaker
of the castle of Chaville. Not exactly the same thing. And he was not
noble.
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
.../... Very few people will take the time to read this kind
of old documents even if they have them at the library. Most
genealogists I know that work on Medieval lines in Quebec (I am afraid
Yves is the only exception) will use only printed genealogies like
Pere Anselme. If you take the Billy line, for example, because
Rene Jette indicated parents in his dictionary (even if they are
nothing more than wild guesses), I think no one will attempt to read
all the various D'Hozier ebooks on Gallica to try to find any other
possible Billy line and this is just easier that reading old
manuscripts.
Some remarks.
Most of the "d'Hozier ebooks" on Gallica are collections of blazons
(armoriaux). Interest for genealogy almost null. Except books about
"ordre de Saint-Louis" and the "Ecoles militaires", the interest is very
limited.
.../...
Have you noticed that a lot of the "noble" families found in Jetté,
for example, have no known French record at all ? A lot
of them are supposed to have a government job because of their
relatives but no one has yet tried to link them to known noble
families.
To be noble is not a sufficient condition to be present in the "Cabinet
des titres" or have a mention in "Heraldique & Généalogie". If nobody in
the family had has to prove his nobility, there will be very few things.
Sometimes a family became noble and died out quickly. In the nobility,
there was also a hierarchy. A part of the nobility was poorer than many
middle-class man and was diluted in this middle-class.
For example, we have a De Couagne family .../... the immigrant
was the maitre d'hotel of gouverneur de Frontenac).
I am not persuaded that it was an employment reserved for the nobility.
"Gouverneur de Frontenac" is a servant, may be of the king. And the
"maitre d'hotel" of the "Gouverneur" is a servant (between sevarals) of
a servant.
I had an ancestor who was, according to the acts, captain or caretaker
of the castle of Chaville. Not exactly the same thing. And he was not
noble.
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Le Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:41:55 +0200, jp.gerard@wanadoo.fr
(Jean-Philippe GÉRARD) écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:
Ce qui serait pratique, en fait, c'est un index de ces séries.
Nous avons un grand nombre de familles qui ont occupé des emplois
de fonctionnaires. C'est certain qu'une petite partie de ces gens
venait de la noblesse parce que ce sont des emplois que l'on donne
souvent à des gens qui ont des relations et ces relations sont
parfois familiales.
D'un côté, personne n'a encore fait la liste de tous ces officiers.
Il y a des listes de capitaines de compagnies franches, du régiment
de Carignan ou des régiments de la guerre de Sept-Ans, par exemple.
Des listes de notaires en activité ici (à cause des greffes) mais pas
de liste des parents d'immigrants qui étaient des notaires, avocats,
greniers à sel, etc. Je sais bien que plusieurs ont inventé des
titres mais il n'y a pour le moment pas de liste de ces nobles
potentiels. Durant les deux prochaines années, je veux compléter les
reconstitutions de familles des colonies françaises du continent
Nord-Américain (il y a trop de gens dans les îles et pas de ressources
locales de toutes façons) et par la suite, je serai en mesure de faire
une liste de référence et surtout de pouvoir identifier qui a de la
descendance parmi ces nobles potentiels. Je suppose qu'on pourrait
en trouver quelques-uns d'insoupçonnés.
D'un autre côté, il n'y a pas de liste de référence des nobles de
France. Il y a un grand nombre de répertoires comme Saint-Allais,
le Père Anselme, les recherches de noblesse du 17e siècle, mais pas
de liste consolidée, sauf les ouvrages de Saffroy, Arnaud et la
Bib. Gen. qui sont en fait des bibliographies et non des biographies
ou des index de biographies. Donc, un grand nombre d'outils et pas
de référence globale.
Ce qu'il faut, c'est un point de départ en France. Au Québec, presque
tous les documents du régiment français ont été dépouillés. C'est le
cas de tous les actes d'état civil (PRDH-RAB complété par Tanguay pour
des actes perdus entre 1870 et 1976), des actes notariés (Parchemin),
de certains actes judiciaires (Chronica), de certains registres
d'hospitalisation, la correspondance de certains gouverneurs ou
explorateurs, etc. On peut donc situer la période d'arrivée et
identifier les parents et le lieu d'origine de beaucoup d'immigrants,
et parmi ceux-ci, identifier les nobles les plus probables. D'après
les évaluations que j'ai lues ou que j'ai faites, on aurait environ
30 000 immigrants en tout, 10 000 immigrants mariés avant ou après
leur arrivée et 5 000 immigrants avec de la descendance.
Nos De Couagne viennent de Clion (36).
J'ai trouvé dans Héraldique et généalogie une famille De Coigne
(qui est une variation de Couagne) dans le Berry. Voir
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--q ... 195847.php
[195847] COIGNE (de), Jean (..)
* mariés , de .. (France)
BERTRAND, Jeanne (Guillaume & Antoinette de TRANCHELION [195849])
1) Pierre, contrat de mariage 1508-01-02 (greffe .. Rivière et
... Daudenai) Marguerite d'ALOIGNY
[195845] COIGNE (de), Pierre (Jean & Jeanne BERTRAND [195847])
* mariés 1508 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1508-01-02 (greffe ..
Rivière et .. Daudenai)
ALOIGNY (d'), Marguerite (Jacques & Anne LE ROUX de LA ROCHE [195848])
1) René, contrat de mariage 1536-09-15 Marguerite de SULLY de
ROMEFORT
[195844] COIGNE (de), René (Pierre & Marguerite d'ALOIGNY [195845])
* mariés 1536 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1536-09-15
SULLY de ROMEFORT (de), Marguerite (Jean de SULLY & Marie du MOLIN
[195846])
1) Gabrielle, contrat de mariage 1582-07-03 René d'ALÈS
[195843] ALÈS (d'), René (François & Françoise de LA ROQUE)
* mariés 1582 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1582-07-03
COIGNE (de), Gabrielle (René & Marguerite de SULLY de ROMEFORT
[195844])
1) René, contrat de mariage 1602-10-03 Louise HATTE
[195850] ALÈS (d'), René (René & Gabrielle de COIGNE [195843])
* mariés 1602 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1602-10-03
HATTE, Louise (Euverte & Marie de MAREAU)
1) Louise, mariée avant 1637 Pierre de BRISAY de DENONVILLE
[38849] BRISAY de DENONVILLE (de), Pierre (Jacques & .. [130032]),
gentilhomme de la chambre du roi et conseiller d'État
* mariés avant 1637, de Denonville (Château) (Eure-et-Loir : 280129),
France
ALÈS de CORBET (d'), Louise (René d'ALÈS & Louise HATTE [195850])
1) Jacques René, né 1637-12-10, décédé 1710-09-22 Denonville
(Château) (Eure-et-Loir : 280129), France, contrat de mariage
1668-11-24 Catherine COURTIN
Ce dernier était gouverneur de la Nouvelle-France. Voir sa
biographie:
http://www.biographi.ca/fr/ShowBio.asp? ... denonville
Pourquoi nos De Couagne ou De Coigne de Clion, province de Touraine
mais diocèse de Bourges en Berry (donc pas loin du Berry) ne
seraient-ils pas apparentés à ces De Coigne du Berry ? Une lignée a
donné un gouverneur. Pourquoi une autre n'aurait-elle pas donné un
maître d'hôtel de gouverneur ?
Parmi tous ces nobles en apparence, il doit bien y en avoir
quelques-uns qui étaient de vrais nobles ou dont les parents ou
grands-parents l'étaient, non ? Et parmi ceux qui faisaient
partie officiellement de la noblesse, je pense qu'on n'a une
ascendance française que pour une petite partie, tout comme pour
les chevaliers de St-Louis. J'ai déjà indexé dans ma base de données
la liste provenant de "Les Chevaliers de Saint-Louis en Canada"
par A. Faucher, 1940, mais je n'ai pas fait de statistiques pour
voir combien d'entre eux sont rattachés à leur famille en France.
Il y a aussi l'alphabet Laffilard comme autre liste.
Ce qui fait l'intérêt de l'article de Yves Gagné et coll., c'est
que cette ascendance semble celle qui a le plus de descendants
et que parmi les autres ascendances potentielles, il y en a peu
qui ont autant de descendants (aucune de celles que j'ai vues
comme possibles en tous cas). Et cette richesse des détails aussi !
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
(Jean-Philippe GÉRARD) écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:
Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid> wrote:
.../... Very few people will take the time to read this kind
of old documents even if they have them at the library. Most
genealogists I know that work on Medieval lines in Quebec (I am afraid
Yves is the only exception) will use only printed genealogies like
Pere Anselme. If you take the Billy line, for example, because
Rene Jette indicated parents in his dictionary (even if they are
nothing more than wild guesses), I think no one will attempt to read
all the various D'Hozier ebooks on Gallica to try to find any other
possible Billy line and this is just easier that reading old
manuscripts.
Some remarks.
Most of the "d'Hozier ebooks" on Gallica are collections of blazons
(armoriaux). Interest for genealogy almost null. Except books about
"ordre de Saint-Louis" and the "Ecoles militaires", the interest is very
limited.
Ce qui serait pratique, en fait, c'est un index de ces séries.
Nous avons un grand nombre de familles qui ont occupé des emplois
de fonctionnaires. C'est certain qu'une petite partie de ces gens
venait de la noblesse parce que ce sont des emplois que l'on donne
souvent à des gens qui ont des relations et ces relations sont
parfois familiales.
D'un côté, personne n'a encore fait la liste de tous ces officiers.
Il y a des listes de capitaines de compagnies franches, du régiment
de Carignan ou des régiments de la guerre de Sept-Ans, par exemple.
Des listes de notaires en activité ici (à cause des greffes) mais pas
de liste des parents d'immigrants qui étaient des notaires, avocats,
greniers à sel, etc. Je sais bien que plusieurs ont inventé des
titres mais il n'y a pour le moment pas de liste de ces nobles
potentiels. Durant les deux prochaines années, je veux compléter les
reconstitutions de familles des colonies françaises du continent
Nord-Américain (il y a trop de gens dans les îles et pas de ressources
locales de toutes façons) et par la suite, je serai en mesure de faire
une liste de référence et surtout de pouvoir identifier qui a de la
descendance parmi ces nobles potentiels. Je suppose qu'on pourrait
en trouver quelques-uns d'insoupçonnés.
D'un autre côté, il n'y a pas de liste de référence des nobles de
France. Il y a un grand nombre de répertoires comme Saint-Allais,
le Père Anselme, les recherches de noblesse du 17e siècle, mais pas
de liste consolidée, sauf les ouvrages de Saffroy, Arnaud et la
Bib. Gen. qui sont en fait des bibliographies et non des biographies
ou des index de biographies. Donc, un grand nombre d'outils et pas
de référence globale.
Have you noticed that a lot of the "noble" families found in Jetté,
for example, have no known French record at all ? A lot
of them are supposed to have a government job because of their
relatives but no one has yet tried to link them to known noble
families.
To be noble is not a sufficient condition to be present in the "Cabinet
des titres" or have a mention in "Heraldique & Généalogie". If nobody in
the family had has to prove his nobility, there will be very few things.
Sometimes a family became noble and died out quickly. In the nobility,
there was also a hierarchy. A part of the nobility was poorer than many
middle-class man and was diluted in this middle-class.
Ce qu'il faut, c'est un point de départ en France. Au Québec, presque
tous les documents du régiment français ont été dépouillés. C'est le
cas de tous les actes d'état civil (PRDH-RAB complété par Tanguay pour
des actes perdus entre 1870 et 1976), des actes notariés (Parchemin),
de certains actes judiciaires (Chronica), de certains registres
d'hospitalisation, la correspondance de certains gouverneurs ou
explorateurs, etc. On peut donc situer la période d'arrivée et
identifier les parents et le lieu d'origine de beaucoup d'immigrants,
et parmi ceux-ci, identifier les nobles les plus probables. D'après
les évaluations que j'ai lues ou que j'ai faites, on aurait environ
30 000 immigrants en tout, 10 000 immigrants mariés avant ou après
leur arrivée et 5 000 immigrants avec de la descendance.
For example, we have a De Couagne family .../... the immigrant
was the maitre d'hotel of gouverneur de Frontenac).
I am not persuaded that it was an employment reserved for the nobility.
"Gouverneur de Frontenac" is a servant, may be of the king. And the
"maitre d'hotel" of the "Gouverneur" is a servant (between sevarals) of
a servant.
I had an ancestor who was, according to the acts, captain or caretaker
of the castle of Chaville. Not exactly the same thing. And he was not
noble.
Nos De Couagne viennent de Clion (36).
J'ai trouvé dans Héraldique et généalogie une famille De Coigne
(qui est une variation de Couagne) dans le Berry. Voir
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--q ... 195847.php
[195847] COIGNE (de), Jean (..)
* mariés , de .. (France)
BERTRAND, Jeanne (Guillaume & Antoinette de TRANCHELION [195849])
1) Pierre, contrat de mariage 1508-01-02 (greffe .. Rivière et
... Daudenai) Marguerite d'ALOIGNY
[195845] COIGNE (de), Pierre (Jean & Jeanne BERTRAND [195847])
* mariés 1508 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1508-01-02 (greffe ..
Rivière et .. Daudenai)
ALOIGNY (d'), Marguerite (Jacques & Anne LE ROUX de LA ROCHE [195848])
1) René, contrat de mariage 1536-09-15 Marguerite de SULLY de
ROMEFORT
[195844] COIGNE (de), René (Pierre & Marguerite d'ALOIGNY [195845])
* mariés 1536 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1536-09-15
SULLY de ROMEFORT (de), Marguerite (Jean de SULLY & Marie du MOLIN
[195846])
1) Gabrielle, contrat de mariage 1582-07-03 René d'ALÈS
[195843] ALÈS (d'), René (François & Françoise de LA ROQUE)
* mariés 1582 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1582-07-03
COIGNE (de), Gabrielle (René & Marguerite de SULLY de ROMEFORT
[195844])
1) René, contrat de mariage 1602-10-03 Louise HATTE
[195850] ALÈS (d'), René (René & Gabrielle de COIGNE [195843])
* mariés 1602 .. (France), contrat de mariage 1602-10-03
HATTE, Louise (Euverte & Marie de MAREAU)
1) Louise, mariée avant 1637 Pierre de BRISAY de DENONVILLE
[38849] BRISAY de DENONVILLE (de), Pierre (Jacques & .. [130032]),
gentilhomme de la chambre du roi et conseiller d'État
* mariés avant 1637, de Denonville (Château) (Eure-et-Loir : 280129),
France
ALÈS de CORBET (d'), Louise (René d'ALÈS & Louise HATTE [195850])
1) Jacques René, né 1637-12-10, décédé 1710-09-22 Denonville
(Château) (Eure-et-Loir : 280129), France, contrat de mariage
1668-11-24 Catherine COURTIN
Ce dernier était gouverneur de la Nouvelle-France. Voir sa
biographie:
http://www.biographi.ca/fr/ShowBio.asp? ... denonville
Pourquoi nos De Couagne ou De Coigne de Clion, province de Touraine
mais diocèse de Bourges en Berry (donc pas loin du Berry) ne
seraient-ils pas apparentés à ces De Coigne du Berry ? Une lignée a
donné un gouverneur. Pourquoi une autre n'aurait-elle pas donné un
maître d'hôtel de gouverneur ?
Parmi tous ces nobles en apparence, il doit bien y en avoir
quelques-uns qui étaient de vrais nobles ou dont les parents ou
grands-parents l'étaient, non ? Et parmi ceux qui faisaient
partie officiellement de la noblesse, je pense qu'on n'a une
ascendance française que pour une petite partie, tout comme pour
les chevaliers de St-Louis. J'ai déjà indexé dans ma base de données
la liste provenant de "Les Chevaliers de Saint-Louis en Canada"
par A. Faucher, 1940, mais je n'ai pas fait de statistiques pour
voir combien d'entre eux sont rattachés à leur famille en France.
Il y a aussi l'alphabet Laffilard comme autre liste.
Ce qui fait l'intérêt de l'article de Yves Gagné et coll., c'est
que cette ascendance semble celle qui a le plus de descendants
et que parmi les autres ascendances potentielles, il y en a peu
qui ont autant de descendants (aucune de celles que j'ai vues
comme possibles en tous cas). Et cette richesse des détails aussi !
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
I am just still learning how to research for genealogy and I have always
used baptismal records
and marriage records recorded at parish registers etc. To further learn more
on becoming a better researcher what documents fall under the catagory of
"Authentic deeds" is one of them notorial acts
and are there others? I know John Dulong outlines some guidelines on his
nice website about medieval research, however I have never heard the term
"Authentic deeds" mentioned before.
Authentic deeds are documents to which the law gives utmost
credibility because
they were drafted by people in authority such as notarial deeds
bearing the notary's seal.
Of course the notary might have misrepresented the facts that he
records, or the
people appearing before him might have lied to him, and there is a way
to attack
those documents, but it is not easy.
I suggest that you read on evidence as it is understood by jurists.
Any serious genealogist
will want to verify facts as much as possible, and official records
remain the best evidence.
They are authentic (see article 2814 of the Civil Code of Québec, for
instance). There are times when
you will have access to old family papers who will state certain
facts. They are given much credibility
until someone can demonstrate that they are either a forgery or that
the facts that they state are
lies. Unfortunately, DNA testing is not always possible; if it were,
many lineages would be challenged...
Chevron
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On 18 Apr 2007 13:54:12 -0700, aeam@videotron.ca wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:
My own estimate for typical old Quebec families is 1 to 2% of cases
where the parents are different, comparing biological parents and
parents from official papers.
The few DNA studies I have seen had roughly 10% of wrong lines for
roughly 10 generations, so about 1% would make sense. But it would
be a good thing if there was a comparison studies for all those DNA
studies to see the % of illegitimate depending on the local society.
Does a smaller community have a lower % of illegitimate ? How about a
Puritan one or a very catholic one or any other religion, national,
ethnical backgrounds ? Can we say the % of unknown illegitimates is
close to the % of known illegitimates (i.e. according to records) ?
I heard on a recent TV series that they billed $3800 for 3 DNA
analysis while on web sites, there are offers for about $100. I
don't know if they overbill in the series or if the prices dropped
very fast but there are more and more DNA studies available and I
am pretty sure some expert may compare them to give an idea about
the genealogy lines compared to genetic lines.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
soc.genealogy.medieval:
lies. Unfortunately, DNA testing is not always possible; if it were,
many lineages would be challenged...
My own estimate for typical old Quebec families is 1 to 2% of cases
where the parents are different, comparing biological parents and
parents from official papers.
The few DNA studies I have seen had roughly 10% of wrong lines for
roughly 10 generations, so about 1% would make sense. But it would
be a good thing if there was a comparison studies for all those DNA
studies to see the % of illegitimate depending on the local society.
Does a smaller community have a lower % of illegitimate ? How about a
Puritan one or a very catholic one or any other religion, national,
ethnical backgrounds ? Can we say the % of unknown illegitimates is
close to the % of known illegitimates (i.e. according to records) ?
I heard on a recent TV series that they billed $3800 for 3 DNA
analysis while on web sites, there are offers for about $100. I
don't know if they overbill in the series or if the prices dropped
very fast but there are more and more DNA studies available and I
am pretty sure some expert may compare them to give an idea about
the genealogy lines compared to genetic lines.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Denis Beauregard wrote:
I am so envious.
JP
I got a copy this morning. This article is fascinating !
I am so envious.
JP
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
rygagne@hotmail.com wrote:
Of course, I agree, 100 percent, but finding the authentic deeds and
being able to process them, that is the real skill that you have and so
many others lack.
JP
John, there is only one way to pursue any research: the use of the
three A's: "Authentic deeds, authentic deeds and authentic deeds".
This is how Father Archange Godbout worked, this is how René Jetté
worked, and there is no other choice but to follow the path of our
distinguished predecessors.
Of course, I agree, 100 percent, but finding the authentic deeds and
being able to process them, that is the real skill that you have and so
many others lack.
JP
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
I agree with you Denis that too many people limit their Medieval
genealogical research to published works. Of course, it is necessary to
consult these works, and anything found in Arnaud's index, to make sure
that the problem you plan to work on is not already solved. Also, it is
wise to check for the family of interest in the Cabinet de titres, but
as Jean-Philippe Gérard reminds us, not all nobles are found in this
collection. Nevertheless, it is a grand if you discover the family you
are researching in the Cabinet de titres. I have a reminder of this on
my desk, the nobility proofs submitted by the French relatives of the
Canadian de Jordys.
The problem is that most of the families we need to study are not in the
Cabinet de titres, not the subject of previous studies, not on microfilm
at the Family History Library, and such minor nobles that they do not
make it into the standard publications. Hence, the necessity to search
through the "authentic deeds." The problem is that it takes time,
money, and skill to locate, read, and analyze these documents. I have
done some very limited research in France, perhaps a total of 48 hours.
This is nothing. To solve most genealogical problems would take many
more like 40 weeks. This is why Yves research is so important. He has
had the opportunity to make in depth studies in the French records. I
suspect he can read a sixteenth century French notarial acts as easily
as I can read the newspaper! Too many of us, even those who have French
as their native tongue, lack this skill.
I am sure there are more French Canadian, and perhaps some Acadian,
lineages that can be traced back through the minor nobility several more
generations, perhaps not to a royal gateway, but at least further back
in time.
For instance, another family I share an interest in with Robert Lonsway
is that of Marie Anne d'Anglure, the wife of Jacques Dumont, and the
mother of the Canadian settler Anne Julienne Dumont. She bears the name
of a noble family and was from an area near a seigneurie held by a
bastard member of the d'Anglure family, and chronologically could fit
into this family. However, she is not mentioned in the official
d'Anglure history and the parish register starts too late. It would be
necessary to go to Lorraine and conduct detailed research in the various
departmental archives. This would be a difficult case to crack, would
take a large investment of time, money, and skill. And the end result
might be to prove that she is no relation at all to the noble d'Anglure
family. So I think this problem will go unsolved until someone is able
to spend several months on the case research in France. I will not hold
my breath.
I must close now, I have an appointment with Charles Melanson dit La
Ramée to correct his entry in my RootsMagic database.
JP
genealogical research to published works. Of course, it is necessary to
consult these works, and anything found in Arnaud's index, to make sure
that the problem you plan to work on is not already solved. Also, it is
wise to check for the family of interest in the Cabinet de titres, but
as Jean-Philippe Gérard reminds us, not all nobles are found in this
collection. Nevertheless, it is a grand if you discover the family you
are researching in the Cabinet de titres. I have a reminder of this on
my desk, the nobility proofs submitted by the French relatives of the
Canadian de Jordys.
The problem is that most of the families we need to study are not in the
Cabinet de titres, not the subject of previous studies, not on microfilm
at the Family History Library, and such minor nobles that they do not
make it into the standard publications. Hence, the necessity to search
through the "authentic deeds." The problem is that it takes time,
money, and skill to locate, read, and analyze these documents. I have
done some very limited research in France, perhaps a total of 48 hours.
This is nothing. To solve most genealogical problems would take many
more like 40 weeks. This is why Yves research is so important. He has
had the opportunity to make in depth studies in the French records. I
suspect he can read a sixteenth century French notarial acts as easily
as I can read the newspaper! Too many of us, even those who have French
as their native tongue, lack this skill.
I am sure there are more French Canadian, and perhaps some Acadian,
lineages that can be traced back through the minor nobility several more
generations, perhaps not to a royal gateway, but at least further back
in time.
For instance, another family I share an interest in with Robert Lonsway
is that of Marie Anne d'Anglure, the wife of Jacques Dumont, and the
mother of the Canadian settler Anne Julienne Dumont. She bears the name
of a noble family and was from an area near a seigneurie held by a
bastard member of the d'Anglure family, and chronologically could fit
into this family. However, she is not mentioned in the official
d'Anglure history and the parish register starts too late. It would be
necessary to go to Lorraine and conduct detailed research in the various
departmental archives. This would be a difficult case to crack, would
take a large investment of time, money, and skill. And the end result
might be to prove that she is no relation at all to the noble d'Anglure
family. So I think this problem will go unsolved until someone is able
to spend several months on the case research in France. I will not hold
my breath.
I must close now, I have an appointment with Charles Melanson dit La
Ramée to correct his entry in my RootsMagic database.
JP
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
John P. DuLong wrote:
Roger LeBlanc
Denis Beauregard wrote:
I got a copy this morning. This article is fascinating !
I am so envious.
JP
Moi aussi!
Roger LeBlanc
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:28:12 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
But there is no central index in France for all authentic records
in the 96 departements, whence the need to find the right place where
to look for, i.e. to find the right place. For example, in the Ledran
origin, I told Yves about the error in the place given by Jetté. It
is funny to see that Drouin was right on this one but I made the same
search and there were many possible Bercy or Brecy or whatever. Only
one had a St-Michel parish.
Let's suppose there is 1 noble for 1000 people in France. If there
were 30 M of people in 1600, then we can map the 50 000 nobles living
at that time and find faster the place where to dig.
I found that ! There are many papers in the Beauregard collection
from the local castle (later in the local archives) and I can't read
them.
But there is no list of prospects.
Forget about that bastard. She doesn't descend from Jean D'Anglure
and Aimée. There is just no hole and the relevant descendants are
known. There are many more D'Anglure in Lorraine. See what I have
at http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 115560.php
Another prospect in Lorraine is Catherine de Lavau. She lived in
Delme, her mother was Louise de Rennel and the lady of the castel
was also a Louise de Rennel with royal ancestry (but living 50 years
too soon).
Someone set up a fund for Lorraine research. Unfortunately, some
rat decided the money would not be used for research...
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
The problem is that most of the families we need to study are not in the
Cabinet de titres, not the subject of previous studies, not on microfilm
at the Family History Library, and such minor nobles that they do not
make it into the standard publications. Hence, the necessity to search
through the "authentic deeds." The problem is that it takes time,
But there is no central index in France for all authentic records
in the 96 departements, whence the need to find the right place where
to look for, i.e. to find the right place. For example, in the Ledran
origin, I told Yves about the error in the place given by Jetté. It
is funny to see that Drouin was right on this one but I made the same
search and there were many possible Bercy or Brecy or whatever. Only
one had a St-Michel parish.
Let's suppose there is 1 noble for 1000 people in France. If there
were 30 M of people in 1600, then we can map the 50 000 nobles living
at that time and find faster the place where to dig.
money, and skill to locate, read, and analyze these documents. I have
done some very limited research in France, perhaps a total of 48 hours.
This is nothing. To solve most genealogical problems would take many
more like 40 weeks. This is why Yves research is so important. He has
had the opportunity to make in depth studies in the French records. I
suspect he can read a sixteenth century French notarial acts as easily
as I can read the newspaper! Too many of us, even those who have French
as their native tongue, lack this skill.
I found that ! There are many papers in the Beauregard collection
from the local castle (later in the local archives) and I can't read
them.
I am sure there are more French Canadian, and perhaps some Acadian,
lineages that can be traced back through the minor nobility several more
generations, perhaps not to a royal gateway, but at least further back
in time.
But there is no list of prospects.
For instance, another family I share an interest in with Robert Lonsway
is that of Marie Anne d'Anglure, the wife of Jacques Dumont, and the
mother of the Canadian settler Anne Julienne Dumont. She bears the name
of a noble family and was from an area near a seigneurie held by a
bastard member of the d'Anglure family, and chronologically could fit
Forget about that bastard. She doesn't descend from Jean D'Anglure
and Aimée. There is just no hole and the relevant descendants are
known. There are many more D'Anglure in Lorraine. See what I have
at http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 115560.php
into this family. However, she is not mentioned in the official
d'Anglure history and the parish register starts too late. It would be
necessary to go to Lorraine and conduct detailed research in the various
departmental archives. This would be a difficult case to crack, would
take a large investment of time, money, and skill. And the end result
might be to prove that she is no relation at all to the noble d'Anglure
family. So I think this problem will go unsolved until someone is able
to spend several months on the case research in France. I will not hold
my breath.
Another prospect in Lorraine is Catherine de Lavau. She lived in
Delme, her mother was Louise de Rennel and the lady of the castel
was also a Louise de Rennel with royal ancestry (but living 50 years
too soon).
Someone set up a fund for Lorraine research. Unfortunately, some
rat decided the money would not be used for research...
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Denis Beauregard wrote:
Denis, I think it is premature to dismiss the possibility that Marie
Anne d'Anglure might be related to the noble d'Anglure family. Unless
you have more information on the d'Anglures than I saw at your website,
or perhaps I missed the specific webpage you wanted me to view, there
looks to be room for an unrecorded daughter. As you know, genealogies
from the past often neglect to mention daughters especially if they
marry below their class.
But whether or not Marie Anne d'Anglure is related to the noble
d'Anglures, my point is that we will not be able to really test this
hypothesis without investing in research on the ground in Lorraine.
And, as the parish register is not helpful because it starts too late,
it will be necessary to search through notarial and other records. This
would be fairly expensive and hence the reason I do not think that this
hypothesis will ever be thoroughly tested. Besides, there might be
other possible royal gateways that should take priority as a research
project over this admittedly vague d'Anglure hypothesis.
Not wanting you to name names, but was this Lorraine research to be
dedicated to solving the d'Anglure case? Just curious.
By the way, I am still waiting for my copy of the Mémoires, when or when
will it come?
JP
For instance, another family I share an interest in with Robert Lonsway
is that of Marie Anne d'Anglure, the wife of Jacques Dumont, and the
mother of the Canadian settler Anne Julienne Dumont. She bears the name
of a noble family and was from an area near a seigneurie held by a
bastard member of the d'Anglure family, and chronologically could fit
Forget about that bastard. She doesn't descend from Jean D'Anglure
and Aimée. There is just no hole and the relevant descendants are
known. There are many more D'Anglure in Lorraine. See what I have
at http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 115560.php
Denis, I think it is premature to dismiss the possibility that Marie
Anne d'Anglure might be related to the noble d'Anglure family. Unless
you have more information on the d'Anglures than I saw at your website,
or perhaps I missed the specific webpage you wanted me to view, there
looks to be room for an unrecorded daughter. As you know, genealogies
from the past often neglect to mention daughters especially if they
marry below their class.
But whether or not Marie Anne d'Anglure is related to the noble
d'Anglures, my point is that we will not be able to really test this
hypothesis without investing in research on the ground in Lorraine.
And, as the parish register is not helpful because it starts too late,
it will be necessary to search through notarial and other records. This
would be fairly expensive and hence the reason I do not think that this
hypothesis will ever be thoroughly tested. Besides, there might be
other possible royal gateways that should take priority as a research
project over this admittedly vague d'Anglure hypothesis.
Someone set up a fund for Lorraine research. Unfortunately, some
rat decided the money would not be used for research...
Not wanting you to name names, but was this Lorraine research to be
dedicated to solving the d'Anglure case? Just curious.
By the way, I am still waiting for my copy of the Mémoires, when or when
will it come?
JP
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:44:16 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
I don't say she is not, but that she is probably not related to
the only line that was studied until now, i.e. those from Bourlemont.
I made a fast search into the database of the federation of Lorraine
genealogical societies (UCGL or UGCL) and there were many D'Anglure
in Lorraine when the records begin and they were not concentrated.
So, in my mind, it is obvious the D'Anglure from Bourlemont are one
among many D'Anglure families in Lorraine. Also, I got feedback from
someone who studied closely the Bourlemont line. Our Marie D'Anglure,
if related to the noble D'Anglure, is likely from another line.
I presume that Yves has a bag full of projects
In the meanwhile, maybe Gallica will launch their OCRing of French
books and reviews, so there is a chance that some studies were already
made about some of our ancestors.
The donator wanted to promote any Lorraine search, so that a d'Anglure
or de Rennel (see the Barbier ancestry) would be covered if someone
submitted a project. I will try to protest about that at the June
meeting of the society.
I am also waiting for mine. I got a copy from a friend who was at the
SGCF library so it was possible for me to enter the basic data and to
complete many lines using the Pere Anselme. Yves put no date in the
Louis VIII line and my database is built so that a marriage date is
necessary. So, I had to check the royal line at least to estimate the
dates of marriage.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
Denis Beauregard wrote:
For instance, another family I share an interest in with Robert Lonsway
is that of Marie Anne d'Anglure, the wife of Jacques Dumont, and the
mother of the Canadian settler Anne Julienne Dumont. She bears the name
of a noble family and was from an area near a seigneurie held by a
bastard member of the d'Anglure family, and chronologically could fit
Forget about that bastard. She doesn't descend from Jean D'Anglure
and Aimée. There is just no hole and the relevant descendants are
known. There are many more D'Anglure in Lorraine. See what I have
at http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 115560.php
Denis, I think it is premature to dismiss the possibility that Marie
Anne d'Anglure might be related to the noble d'Anglure family. Unless
you have more information on the d'Anglures than I saw at your website,
or perhaps I missed the specific webpage you wanted me to view, there
looks to be room for an unrecorded daughter. As you know, genealogies
from the past often neglect to mention daughters especially if they
marry below their class.
I don't say she is not, but that she is probably not related to
the only line that was studied until now, i.e. those from Bourlemont.
I made a fast search into the database of the federation of Lorraine
genealogical societies (UCGL or UGCL) and there were many D'Anglure
in Lorraine when the records begin and they were not concentrated.
So, in my mind, it is obvious the D'Anglure from Bourlemont are one
among many D'Anglure families in Lorraine. Also, I got feedback from
someone who studied closely the Bourlemont line. Our Marie D'Anglure,
if related to the noble D'Anglure, is likely from another line.
But whether or not Marie Anne d'Anglure is related to the noble
d'Anglures, my point is that we will not be able to really test this
hypothesis without investing in research on the ground in Lorraine.
And, as the parish register is not helpful because it starts too late,
it will be necessary to search through notarial and other records. This
would be fairly expensive and hence the reason I do not think that this
hypothesis will ever be thoroughly tested. Besides, there might be
other possible royal gateways that should take priority as a research
project over this admittedly vague d'Anglure hypothesis.
I presume that Yves has a bag full of projects
In the meanwhile, maybe Gallica will launch their OCRing of French
books and reviews, so there is a chance that some studies were already
made about some of our ancestors.
Someone set up a fund for Lorraine research. Unfortunately, some
rat decided the money would not be used for research...
Not wanting you to name names, but was this Lorraine research to be
dedicated to solving the d'Anglure case? Just curious.
The donator wanted to promote any Lorraine search, so that a d'Anglure
or de Rennel (see the Barbier ancestry) would be covered if someone
submitted a project. I will try to protest about that at the June
meeting of the society.
By the way, I am still waiting for my copy of the Mémoires, when or when
will it come?
I am also waiting for mine. I got a copy from a friend who was at the
SGCF library so it was possible for me to enter the basic data and to
complete many lines using the Pere Anselme. Yves put no date in the
Louis VIII line and my database is built so that a marriage date is
necessary. So, I had to check the royal line at least to estimate the
dates of marriage.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Good day Everyone;
..
So many notary deeds were not studied in Lorraine, that it is far from
being enough to look at databases and draw any defiinitive
conclusions. Experience shows that France is not like Quebec where
almost every piece of info is in a database before 1765.
Besides, there might be> >other possible royal gateways that should
take priority as a research
The undersigned is not a descendant of d'Anglure, and I will not
enough time, during my life, to complete the research on my own
ancestors. So I hope someone else will go to France and make the
research, knowingly it will take him or her many weeks.
Denis, 25 percent of the Amiot article concerns Lorraine area. I did
have a look at all the Journals concerning that area on Gallica, and
found nothing to help the d'Anglure search (obviously, looking at my
own ancestors; I am aware of the others and would take note of any new
elements and publish them.
We had to struggle to squeeze everything in the number of pages
allocated to me and my co-author in the Memoires on one side, secundo,
I did not have to repeat info available somewhere else and, tercio,
the lineage to Louis VIII, while very interesting, was not the, main
purpose of this article. The whole, friendly submitted. After 41
pages in the Memoires, I hope people will not start to say we should
have added this or should have added this. Obviously; a whole PhD
thesis could have been written on the subject of the article.
Have a good Sunday, R;-Yves Gagné
..
Denis Beauregard wrote:
I made a fast search into the database of the federation of Lorraine
genealogical societies (UCGL or UGCL) and there were many D'Anglure
in Lorraine when the records begin .
So many notary deeds were not studied in Lorraine, that it is far from
being enough to look at databases and draw any defiinitive
conclusions. Experience shows that France is not like Quebec where
almost every piece of info is in a database before 1765.
Besides, there might be> >other possible royal gateways that should
take priority as a research
project over this admittedly vague d'Anglure hypothesis.
I presume that Yves has a bag full of projects
The undersigned is not a descendant of d'Anglure, and I will not
enough time, during my life, to complete the research on my own
ancestors. So I hope someone else will go to France and make the
research, knowingly it will take him or her many weeks.
In the meanwhile, maybe Gallica will launch their OCRing of French
books and reviews, so there is a chance that some studies were already
made about some of our ancestors.
Denis, 25 percent of the Amiot article concerns Lorraine area. I did
have a look at all the Journals concerning that area on Gallica, and
found nothing to help the d'Anglure search (obviously, looking at my
own ancestors; I am aware of the others and would take note of any new
elements and publish them.
. Yves put no date in the > Louis VIII line
We had to struggle to squeeze everything in the number of pages
allocated to me and my co-author in the Memoires on one side, secundo,
I did not have to repeat info available somewhere else and, tercio,
the lineage to Louis VIII, while very interesting, was not the, main
purpose of this article. The whole, friendly submitted. After 41
pages in the Memoires, I hope people will not start to say we should
have added this or should have added this. Obviously; a whole PhD
thesis could have been written on the subject of the article.
Have a good Sunday, R;-Yves Gagné
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Apr 19, 2:28 am, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
I think that for French Canadian genealogy, this old say prevails:
"For there is nothing covered that will be revealed; nor hidden that
will not be known" luke, 12, 2
I mean, for so many decades all the mysteries and enigmae of French
Canadian genealogy being known to everyone, if anything published in
any magazine or laying in Fonds d'hozier was the solution to one of
the enigma, it would have been "revealed" already. Father Godbout
spent a lot of time looking at the Fonds d'Hozier and there is nothing
in Fonds Godbout hidden that is not known.
There is no other solution but to be "raiders of the lost deeds".
Too costly might think someones, but genealogy IS the science of
looking for ancestors where they left trances, these traces are in the
Archives and not on the internet! And contrary to Quebec, the deeds
are not indexed in France. Some will think, hey I pay my subscription
to the Memoires so I am entitled to receive the results for free, but,
guess what; the undersigned, and all the authors of the Memoires, do
also subscribe to the Memoires, so why would it not be also free for
them? Of course; some people do understand, and we are gratefull to
all of them.
I wish you a good Sunday, R.Yves Gagné
I agree with you Denis that too many people limit their Medieval
genealogical research to published works. Of course, it is necessary to
consult these works, and anything found in Arnaud's index, to make sure
that the problem you plan to work on is not already solved. Also, it is
wise to check for the family of interest in the Cabinet de titres, but
as Jean-Philippe Gérard reminds us, not all nobles are found in this
collection. Nevertheless, it is a grand if you discover the family you
are researching in the Cabinet de titres.
Hello everyone,
I think that for French Canadian genealogy, this old say prevails:
"For there is nothing covered that will be revealed; nor hidden that
will not be known" luke, 12, 2
I mean, for so many decades all the mysteries and enigmae of French
Canadian genealogy being known to everyone, if anything published in
any magazine or laying in Fonds d'hozier was the solution to one of
the enigma, it would have been "revealed" already. Father Godbout
spent a lot of time looking at the Fonds d'Hozier and there is nothing
in Fonds Godbout hidden that is not known.
There is no other solution but to be "raiders of the lost deeds".
Too costly might think someones, but genealogy IS the science of
looking for ancestors where they left trances, these traces are in the
Archives and not on the internet! And contrary to Quebec, the deeds
are not indexed in France. Some will think, hey I pay my subscription
to the Memoires so I am entitled to receive the results for free, but,
guess what; the undersigned, and all the authors of the Memoires, do
also subscribe to the Memoires, so why would it not be also free for
them? Of course; some people do understand, and we are gratefull to
all of them.
I wish you a good Sunday, R.Yves Gagné
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On 22 Apr 2007 02:07:23 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:
The study of the Bourlemont line was made by someone in the area,
not from printed sources but from local deeds. And there are just
too many D'Anglure in Lorraine to say they are from the same
line. Champagne, the origin of D'Anglure, is just beside Lorraine.
http://searchgbk.geneanet.org/result.ph ... ource=gbk*
http://search.geneanet.org/result.php3? ... =&x=48&y=9
http://genealogie.com/v2/genealogie_pre ... Nom=471303
I understand that. But I think to those who, like me, are descendants
of either the d'Anglure or the de Rennel families. At this time, I
can't afford the price of the search however.
Each month, Gallica put online 1000s more documents so maybe there
will be something someday.
I understand that. It was not a complaint, just a comment. I was
able to complete the Louis VIII lineage with approximate dates (my
database won't work without marriage dates) from Pere Anselme. And
while filling the missing dates, I decided to add more and more lines.
I presume many more will do the same thing.
There are 7 thesis in France (not sure what degree) where the thesis
director was Yves Landry and the subject was French emigration to
Canada. I think there are copies of 2 of them in Montreal and the 5
other are missing. While they are much smaller studies than your own,
they may include a lot of information about the family of some
immigrants. I just don't know how to identify the list as I have
received no answer each time I asked for them.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
soc.genealogy.french:
Good day Everyone;
.
Denis Beauregard wrote:
I made a fast search into the database of the federation of Lorraine
genealogical societies (UCGL or UGCL) and there were many D'Anglure
in Lorraine when the records begin .
So many notary deeds were not studied in Lorraine, that it is far from
being enough to look at databases and draw any defiinitive
conclusions. Experience shows that France is not like Quebec where
almost every piece of info is in a database before 1765.
The study of the Bourlemont line was made by someone in the area,
not from printed sources but from local deeds. And there are just
too many D'Anglure in Lorraine to say they are from the same
line. Champagne, the origin of D'Anglure, is just beside Lorraine.
http://searchgbk.geneanet.org/result.ph ... ource=gbk*
http://search.geneanet.org/result.php3? ... =&x=48&y=9
http://genealogie.com/v2/genealogie_pre ... Nom=471303
Besides, there might be> >other possible royal gateways that should
take priority as a research
project over this admittedly vague d'Anglure hypothesis.
I presume that Yves has a bag full of projects
The undersigned is not a descendant of d'Anglure, and I will not
enough time, during my life, to complete the research on my own
ancestors. So I hope someone else will go to France and make the
research, knowingly it will take him or her many weeks.
I understand that. But I think to those who, like me, are descendants
of either the d'Anglure or the de Rennel families. At this time, I
can't afford the price of the search however.
In the meanwhile, maybe Gallica will launch their OCRing of French
books and reviews, so there is a chance that some studies were already
made about some of our ancestors.
Denis, 25 percent of the Amiot article concerns Lorraine area. I did
have a look at all the Journals concerning that area on Gallica, and
found nothing to help the d'Anglure search (obviously, looking at my
own ancestors; I am aware of the others and would take note of any new
elements and publish them.
Each month, Gallica put online 1000s more documents so maybe there
will be something someday.
. Yves put no date in the > Louis VIII line
We had to struggle to squeeze everything in the number of pages
allocated to me and my co-author in the Memoires on one side, secundo,
I did not have to repeat info available somewhere else and, tercio,
the lineage to Louis VIII, while very interesting, was not the, main
purpose of this article. The whole, friendly submitted. After 41
pages in the Memoires, I hope people will not start to say we should
have added this or should have added this. Obviously; a whole PhD
thesis could have been written on the subject of the article.
I understand that. It was not a complaint, just a comment. I was
able to complete the Louis VIII lineage with approximate dates (my
database won't work without marriage dates) from Pere Anselme. And
while filling the missing dates, I decided to add more and more lines.
I presume many more will do the same thing.
There are 7 thesis in France (not sure what degree) where the thesis
director was Yves Landry and the subject was French emigration to
Canada. I think there are copies of 2 of them in Montreal and the 5
other are missing. While they are much smaller studies than your own,
they may include a lot of information about the family of some
immigrants. I just don't know how to identify the list as I have
received no answer each time I asked for them.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
Why no go to the Bibliothèque Nationale du Québec and ask them to make
an interlibrary loan (you can even make the request on line as I
suppose you have a library card). To my knowledge, a University would
not refuse to lend a thesis to another library.
Yours, R.-Yves Gagné
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
On 22 Apr 2007 02:07:23 -0700, ryga...@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:
There are 7 thesis in France (not sure what degree) where the thesis
director was Yves Landry and the subject was French emigration to
Canada. I think there are copies of 2 of them in Montreal and the 5
other are missing. While they are much smaller studies than your own,
they may include a lot of information about the family of some
immigrants. I just don't know how to identify the list as I have
received no answer each time I asked for them.
..Good day,
Why no go to the Bibliothèque Nationale du Québec and ask them to make
an interlibrary loan (you can even make the request on line as I
suppose you have a library card). To my knowledge, a University would
not refuse to lend a thesis to another library.
Yours, R.-Yves Gagné
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
Le 23 Apr 2007 04:56:58 -0700, rygagne@hotmail.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.french:
But we don't know where are the thesis or what are their title.
At most, it may be possible (I am not sure) to identify who were
the students of Yves Landry, but I don't know if we can find all the
seven.
What I have thus far:
- about Ile de Ré, by Claire Lambert
- L'émigration coloniale vers la Nouvelle-France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe
siècles dans le cadre de la reproduction sociale à Marans en Aunis
(raisons et motivations des émigrants), by Fabien Raguy
Other students that are identified:
Anne-Isabelle Martin (Doubs, Jura, Haute-Saône)
Corrine Chan (Versailles)
3 more to find
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
soc.genealogy.french:
On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
On 22 Apr 2007 02:07:23 -0700, ryga...@hotmail.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.french:
There are 7 thesis in France (not sure what degree) where the thesis
director was Yves Landry and the subject was French emigration to
Canada. I think there are copies of 2 of them in Montreal and the 5
other are missing. While they are much smaller studies than your own,
they may include a lot of information about the family of some
immigrants. I just don't know how to identify the list as I have
received no answer each time I asked for them.
.Good day,
Why no go to the Bibliothèque Nationale du Québec and ask them to make
an interlibrary loan (you can even make the request on line as I
suppose you have a library card). To my knowledge, a University would
not refuse to lend a thesis to another library.
But we don't know where are the thesis or what are their title.
At most, it may be possible (I am not sure) to identify who were
the students of Yves Landry, but I don't know if we can find all the
seven.
What I have thus far:
- about Ile de Ré, by Claire Lambert
- L'émigration coloniale vers la Nouvelle-France aux XVIIe et XVIIIe
siècles dans le cadre de la reproduction sociale à Marans en Aunis
(raisons et motivations des émigrants), by Fabien Raguy
Other students that are identified:
Anne-Isabelle Martin (Doubs, Jura, Haute-Saône)
Corrine Chan (Versailles)
3 more to find
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On Apr 18, 10:18 pm, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
Can you elaborate? I've done research in Bar le Duc, Meuse. It was
VERY difficult, but I found what I was looking for.
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:28:12 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
dulo...@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
Someone set up a fund for Lorraine research. Unfortunately, some
rat decided the money would not be used for research...
Can you elaborate? I've done research in Bar le Duc, Meuse. It was
VERY difficult, but I found what I was looking for.
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On May 7, 9:59 pm, rlafleu...@aol.com wrote:
For anyone interested, the persons mentioned in the Inventaires des
archives before 1790 are in an alpha order in binders (but hand
written) in the reading room in Bar le Duc, Meuse, nice little city.
Have a nice day, R.-Yves Gagné
Can you elaborate? I've done research in Bar le Duc, Meuse. It was
VERY difficult, but I found what I was looking for.
Good day,
For anyone interested, the persons mentioned in the Inventaires des
archives before 1790 are in an alpha order in binders (but hand
written) in the reading room in Bar le Duc, Meuse, nice little city.
Have a nice day, R.-Yves Gagné
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
After waiting over three weeks, my copy of the Mémoires arrived
yesterday and I spent a delightful evening reading over M. Gagné and
Kokanosky's brilliant article. What a pleasure to follow the twists and
turns of their research. They were extremely thorough. How they did
their research and how they followed the leads to all the various
depositories and records would make an interesting tale in itself. That
the key to this royal lineage resided in Austria is very interesting.
JP
yesterday and I spent a delightful evening reading over M. Gagné and
Kokanosky's brilliant article. What a pleasure to follow the twists and
turns of their research. They were extremely thorough. How they did
their research and how they followed the leads to all the various
depositories and records would make an interesting tale in itself. That
the key to this royal lineage resided in Austria is very interesting.
JP
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On May 14, 12:27 am, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
The tale is simple: you order all the deeds for the region and you
look at them, one by one. And when you are finished, you move to the
other region and repeat the formula. So after the 3 A's (authentic
deeds, authentic deeds, authentic deeds), the 3 W's (work, work,
work).
And yes, it takes months, and no, one does not achieve anything by
spending one afternoon in the Archives while touring the area, and no,
nobody else will do it for you upon a simple request on the internet,
and no, apart from very very very few people, nobody will accept to
support financially the costs of your search, while they all enjoy the
free ride.
C'est la vie! Yours, R.-Yves Gagné
After waiting over three weeks, my copy of the Mémoires arrived
yesterday and I spent a delightful evening reading over M. Gagné and
Kokanosky's brilliant article. What a pleasure to follow the twists and
turns of their research. They were extremely thorough. How they did
their research and how they followed the leads to all the various
depositories and records would make an interesting tale in itself. That
the key to this royal lineage resided in Austria is very interesting.
JP
Good day,
The tale is simple: you order all the deeds for the region and you
look at them, one by one. And when you are finished, you move to the
other region and repeat the formula. So after the 3 A's (authentic
deeds, authentic deeds, authentic deeds), the 3 W's (work, work,
work).
And yes, it takes months, and no, one does not achieve anything by
spending one afternoon in the Archives while touring the area, and no,
nobody else will do it for you upon a simple request on the internet,
and no, apart from very very very few people, nobody will accept to
support financially the costs of your search, while they all enjoy the
free ride.
C'est la vie! Yours, R.-Yves Gagné
-
John P. DuLong
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
rygagne@hotmail.com wrote:
Having now read through your article several times and marveled at the
thoroughness of your research, I think I would add two more letters to
your 3 A's and 3 W's. You need an S for skill and a P for patience.
When I view the images of the original documents you include in your
article and compare it to the transcriptions you make I am amazed at how
you were able to read some of these documents. Obviously, you and your
co-author have a valuable skill to read difficult sixteenth century and
earlier text.
The patience it took for the two of you to meticulously go through all
the relevant surviving collections in several locations in France,
Austria, and Monaco is also impressive. I do not know how you could
have maintained your concentration. It must have been mind numbing on
some days.
Lastly, this article is a great demonstration of what can be achieved in
the absence of vital and notarial records using other records mostly
relating to seigneuries. When I view my Michelin Atlas to locate the
seigneuries mentioned in your article it is clear that this terrain is
close to areas where there was major fighting in World War I and II. In
particular, I noted the American cemetery between Bantheville and
Cierges. We are fortunate indeed that you were able to piece together
this elaborate genealogy in the face of significant destruction in this
region of France.
Very impressed! You have set the bar very high now for every
genealogist who wants to extend their research to France. My
complements to you and M. Kokanosky. I look forward to seeing the
result of the current project you are engaged in to study the origins of
Guillaume Daoust. Your report on him will no doubt also be of this high
caliber.
(I would remind readers that you can financially help M. Gagné in his
current Daoust research. Point your browser to
http://www.habitant.org/daoust/ for the details. Those of you who have
benefited from M. Gagné's research on the Baillon, Le Neuf, Montieth,
and Longueval projects, but failed to contribute to them, might want to
"pay it forward" and help on the Daoust project even if you do not
descend from Guillaume Daoust.)
JP
The tale is simple: you order all the deeds for the region and you
look at them, one by one. And when you are finished, you move to the
other region and repeat the formula. So after the 3 A's (authentic
deeds, authentic deeds, authentic deeds), the 3 W's (work, work,
work).
And yes, it takes months, and no, one does not achieve anything by
spending one afternoon in the Archives while touring the area, and no,
nobody else will do it for you upon a simple request on the internet,
and no, apart from very very very few people, nobody will accept to
support financially the costs of your search, while they all enjoy the
free ride.
Having now read through your article several times and marveled at the
thoroughness of your research, I think I would add two more letters to
your 3 A's and 3 W's. You need an S for skill and a P for patience.
When I view the images of the original documents you include in your
article and compare it to the transcriptions you make I am amazed at how
you were able to read some of these documents. Obviously, you and your
co-author have a valuable skill to read difficult sixteenth century and
earlier text.
The patience it took for the two of you to meticulously go through all
the relevant surviving collections in several locations in France,
Austria, and Monaco is also impressive. I do not know how you could
have maintained your concentration. It must have been mind numbing on
some days.
Lastly, this article is a great demonstration of what can be achieved in
the absence of vital and notarial records using other records mostly
relating to seigneuries. When I view my Michelin Atlas to locate the
seigneuries mentioned in your article it is clear that this terrain is
close to areas where there was major fighting in World War I and II. In
particular, I noted the American cemetery between Bantheville and
Cierges. We are fortunate indeed that you were able to piece together
this elaborate genealogy in the face of significant destruction in this
region of France.
Very impressed! You have set the bar very high now for every
genealogist who wants to extend their research to France. My
complements to you and M. Kokanosky. I look forward to seeing the
result of the current project you are engaged in to study the origins of
Guillaume Daoust. Your report on him will no doubt also be of this high
caliber.
(I would remind readers that you can financially help M. Gagné in his
current Daoust research. Point your browser to
http://www.habitant.org/daoust/ for the details. Those of you who have
benefited from M. Gagné's research on the Baillon, Le Neuf, Montieth,
and Longueval projects, but failed to contribute to them, might want to
"pay it forward" and help on the Daoust project even if you do not
descend from Guillaume Daoust.)
JP
-
Gjest
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On May 20, 5:01 pm, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
Good day,
Mr. Dulong, we wish to thank you for your compliments, but you are
ialso putting the bar very high for us as well!
As you know, finding a lineage to King Louis VIII is not a common
thing to do for settlers to New France, and whatever deep searches we
do, it is far from being sure that we will even find lineages to
Charlemagne for anyone (and, in any event, this is not the prime
objective of our work). Moreover, with the total lack of financial
support from genealogists (apart from a very small list of people) for
the costs of such an endeavour (same meaning as the name of James
Cook's ship or the Space Shuttle), it is nearly impossible for us to
come up with the equivalent of a "red sport car" in genealogy every
decade, or maybe even more than once in a life time. Yours very
truly, R.-Yves Gagné
ryga...@hotmail.com wrote
Very impressed! You have set the bar very high now for every
genealogist who wants to extend their research to France. My
complements to you and M. Kokanosky. I look forward to seeing the
result of the current project you are engaged in to study the origins of
Guillaume Daoust. Your report on him will no doubt also be of this high
caliber.
JP
Good day,
Mr. Dulong, we wish to thank you for your compliments, but you are
ialso putting the bar very high for us as well!
As you know, finding a lineage to King Louis VIII is not a common
thing to do for settlers to New France, and whatever deep searches we
do, it is far from being sure that we will even find lineages to
Charlemagne for anyone (and, in any event, this is not the prime
objective of our work). Moreover, with the total lack of financial
support from genealogists (apart from a very small list of people) for
the costs of such an endeavour (same meaning as the name of James
Cook's ship or the Space Shuttle), it is nearly impossible for us to
come up with the equivalent of a "red sport car" in genealogy every
decade, or maybe even more than once in a life time. Yours very
truly, R.-Yves Gagné
-
JP
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
On May 21, 7:43 am, ryga...@hotmail.com wrote:
<snip>
I would be perfectly happy settling for a nice "blue station wagon"
filled with bourgeois ancestors going back just a couple of
generations on the Daoust project. The work you and your co-author
did on the non-noble Couvent and Amiot families is equally interesting
to me as any noble or royal lineages and given the challenges you
faced in locating information about these commoner families I find it
more fascinating.
JP
<snip>
Moreover, with the total lack of financial
support from genealogists (apart from a very small list of people) for
the costs of such an endeavour (same meaning as the name of James
Cook's ship or the Space Shuttle), it is nearly impossible for us to
come up with the equivalent of a "red sport car" in genealogy every
decade, or maybe even more than once in a life time.
I would be perfectly happy settling for a nice "blue station wagon"
filled with bourgeois ancestors going back just a couple of
generations on the Daoust project. The work you and your co-author
did on the non-noble Couvent and Amiot families is equally interesting
to me as any noble or royal lineages and given the challenges you
faced in locating information about these commoner families I find it
more fascinating.
JP
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Long Awaited Longueval/Amiot/Ledran Article Published
I have to say I am very much struck by the enormity of the challenges
faced by Yves in researching this article. As John Dulong has commented,
making sense of the documents -many of which are photocopied for the
article- is a daunting task. And I can only wonder at how much
non-relevant material must be researched to find the few that are of
interest. It is perplexing that these ancestors seem to have left so
scanty a trail, though I suppose the ravages of time are largely to
blame for that. Still, I think we can hope these families may have left
traces elsewhere in France, and reconstructing the family groups is a
critical step in the process. When Yves, John, and others (René Jetté
before them) have laid out the framework on these ancestries, it really
is a giant step forward. I only hope they never get discouraged or
satisfied that they have learned enough. Keep up the excellent work!
Roger LeBlanc
JP wrote:
faced by Yves in researching this article. As John Dulong has commented,
making sense of the documents -many of which are photocopied for the
article- is a daunting task. And I can only wonder at how much
non-relevant material must be researched to find the few that are of
interest. It is perplexing that these ancestors seem to have left so
scanty a trail, though I suppose the ravages of time are largely to
blame for that. Still, I think we can hope these families may have left
traces elsewhere in France, and reconstructing the family groups is a
critical step in the process. When Yves, John, and others (René Jetté
before them) have laid out the framework on these ancestries, it really
is a giant step forward. I only hope they never get discouraged or
satisfied that they have learned enough. Keep up the excellent work!
Roger LeBlanc
JP wrote:
I would be perfectly happy settling for a nice "blue station wagon"
filled with bourgeois ancestors going back just a couple of
generations on the Daoust project. The work you and your co-author
did on the non-noble Couvent and Amiot families is equally interesting
to me as any noble or royal lineages and given the challenges you
faced in locating information about these commoner families I find it
more fascinating.
JP