Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestr

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Gjest

Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestr

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 13:38:22

I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R

norenxaq

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av norenxaq » 13 apr 2007 16:42:23

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R




Hello:


I am aware of a work entitled: Australian Royal Bloodlines by juohn
Hankard-Corr that might provide more. (I am looking for a copy, but have
not actually seen it)

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 21:21:04

On 13 Apr., 13:38, m...@btinternet.com wrote:

I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

On 13 Apr., 19:01, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Best,
Ken

Thanks, Ken; that's interesting. I would be interested to know the
years of arrival for each of the 5 with mediaeval ancestry. Are any
of them GARDs?

Your explanation as to the apparent dearth of published studies, as
opposed to the American experience, is a likely one. The Hankard-Corr
book that Norenxaq has kindly cited is entirely new to me, which
surprised me the more when I found it has a 1994 publication date; I
have never encountered it in any genealogical library in New South
Wales - I suppose the SAG and Mitchell libraries must have a copy. (I
should add I have no interest in compiling such a book myself - I am
just curious!)

As you say, I suspect that with the emigration of cadets of British
landed families (including remittance men and the like), the number of
emigrants with mediaeval and even royal ancestry is actually quite
considerable - many people I know in Sydney, ranging from old school
chums to our MP, descend from Australian GARDs. Perhaps my arbitary
cut-off of 1868 is so relatively late that many settlers would come
under the wire.

Does anyone know of any First Fleeter or convict GARDs?

Best wishes, Michael

norenxaq

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av norenxaq » 13 apr 2007 21:30:56

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


Your explanation as to the apparent dearth of published studies, as
opposed to the American experience, is a likely one. The Hankard-Corr
book that Norenxaq has kindly cited is entirely new to me, which
surprised me the more when I found it has a 1994 publication date; I
have never encountered it in any genealogical library in New South
Wales - I suppose the SAG and Mitchell libraries must have a copy. (I
should add I have no interest in compiling such a book myself - I am
just curious!)



WorldCat has it at: Library of Congress, New York Public, and the

National Library of Australia only

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 22:04:40

On 13 Apr., 21:30, norenxaq <noren...@san.rr.com> wrote:
m...@btinternet.com wrote:

Your explanation as to the apparent dearth of published studies, as
opposed to the American experience, is a likely one. The Hankard-Corr
book that Norenxaq has kindly cited is entirely new to me, which
surprised me the more when I found it has a 1994 publication date; I
have never encountered it in any genealogical library in New South
Wales - I suppose the SAG and Mitchell libraries must have a copy. (I
should add I have no interest in compiling such a book myself - I am
just curious!)

WorldCat has it at: Library of Congress, New York Public, and the
National Library of Australia only

Thanks. While it is not in the Fisher Library catalog (University of
Sydney), there is one at the Mitchell Library in Sydney - their
catalog has it thus:

Published Wingham, N.S.W. : J.A. Hankard-Corr, 1994.
Description 31 leaves : geneal. tables ; 21 x 30 cm.
Subject Families of royal descent -- Australia.
Australia -- Genealogy.
Europe -- Kings and rulers -- Genealogy.
Great Britain -- Kings and rulers -- Genealogy.
ISBN 0646211102
Dewey 929/.2/0994

At 31 pages, it is smallish. If I remember, I'll look it up when I am
back there again in a few months.

Regards, Michael

Leo van de Pas

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 apr 2007 22:09:37

Barrett-Lennard (via Charles II), Egerton-Warburton, Clifton and several
others. I am not awake yet, sorry, but I will look further.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia




----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestry


I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R


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John Brandon

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av John Brandon » 13 apr 2007 22:42:46

There are buttloads of Australians mentioned in _Burke's Colonial
Gentry_. Just sayin'.


On 13 Apr., 13:38, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?
On 13 Apr., 19:01, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Best,
Ken

Thanks, Ken; that's interesting. I would be interested to know the
years of arrival for each of the 5 with mediaeval ancestry. Are any
of them GARDs?

Your explanation as to the apparent dearth of published studies, as
opposed to the American experience, is a likely one. The Hankard-Corr
book that Norenxaq has kindly cited is entirely new to me, which
surprised me the more when I found it has a 1994 publication date; I
have never encountered it in any genealogical library in New South
Wales - I suppose the SAG and Mitchell libraries must have a copy. (I
should add I have no interest in compiling such a book myself - I am
just curious!)

As you say, I suspect that with the emigration of cadets of British
landed families (including remittance men and the like), the number of
emigrants with mediaeval and even royal ancestry is actually quite
considerable - many people I know in Sydney, ranging from old school
chums to our MP, descend from Australian GARDs. Perhaps my arbitary
cut-off of 1868 is so relatively late that many settlers would come
under the wire.

Does anyone know of any First Fleeter or convict GARDs?

Best wishes, Michael

John Brandon

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av John Brandon » 13 apr 2007 23:25:51

There are buttloads of Australians mentioned in _Burke's Colonial
Gentry_. Just sayin'.

That wasn't very polite. Correct "buttloads" to "boatloads."

I would say that that book is predominantly Australia-New Zealand-
Canada. There are two New England families that I remember right off,
Coffin of Newbury/ Nantucket and Burnham of Ipswich. Why these rated
inclusion is beyond me.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 apr 2007 23:43:00

I think the fact that the colonising of the USA happened a few generations
before Australia has something to do with this. As well as the much lareger
population of the USA.

Australians in general have a down to earth approach to many things and
lately to descend from a convict is being much more Australian than having
medieval or Royal ancestors. One lady, interested in her ancestors, when
told she had Royal ancestors simply said she was more interested in her
nearer ancestors and as she was not a 'headhunter' those more distant royal
ancestors just had to wait.

In a few cases I found that more than one member of a family came to
Australia, the same happened in Northern America.
Edward Pomeroy Barrett-Lennard went first to W-Australia and after several
years went back to England and returned to Australia with the son of an
elder brother, both uncle and nephew have many descendants.

One female Barrett-Lennard married a Forrest who belonged to another
historical important (for W-Australia) family.
Fletcher Christian with many descendants in Australia also has Royal (and
therefore medieval) ancestors.

A few decades ago Robert Holmes aCourt (now deceased) came from South Africa
and he has Royal ancestors, but about a hundred years earlier another branch
of this family had arrived in Queensland and have descendants in Sydney.

In 1841 Marshal Waller Clifton (with Royal ancestors) and his wife Elinor
Bell (with even more Royal ancestors) arrived in Western Australia with
eleven of their children of their fourteen children (one had died in infancy
and two, both remaining childless, stayed behind. Clifton James (of Full
Monty fame is one of their descendants.

In 1840 George Edward Egerton-Warburton arrived in Australia, via Charles
Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester, he is a descendant of John of Gaunt.

In 1849 Henry Manners arrived in Australia and has many descendants. Via one
(illegitimate) female link he descends from the Manners, Earls and Dukes of
Rutland.

There are many more recent arrivals in Australia, a Dutch family Abbinga
descendants of Henry Carey, Lord Hunsdon, likely son of Henry VIII, as well
as of Kazimierz IV Jagiello, king of Poland.

Michael Abney-Hastings, 14th Earl of Loudoun descendant of James V king of
Scots

Charles Acheson, 7th Earl of Gosford (and living in Gosford, NSW) descendant
of James IV king of Scots

And many more.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestry


I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ian Cairns

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Ian Cairns » 13 apr 2007 23:48:13

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1176467902.161699.176120@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R

I thought that, according to Tony Robinson, the true King of the United
Kingdom lives in Australia? :-))

Ian

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 apr 2007 01:38:35

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.855.1176504191.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

<snip>

In 1840 George Edward Egerton-Warburton arrived in Australia, via Charles
Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester, he is a descendant of John of Gaunt.

There is a large family of Somersets (agnatic Plantagenets, related to the
dukes of Beaufort) still living, mainly, in Queensland where their immigrant
ancestor in the male line settled in the Brisbane Valley. Queen Victoria
sent some red deer from Windsor as a wedding present, and their descendants
are still flourishing in the area too.

But like many other Australians, both animals and people don't tend to
consider their ancestry special just because of some distant royal
connection. Historical figures are part of everyone's background, not a
personal possession or influence in any unique way to a descendant - at
least to anyone who isn't also their heir/ess, and even then only the
succession is unique and not the mere connection.

The question is not so much Why the lack of interest in Australia? as Why
the incessant fuss in the US? as if GARDs somehow lend indentity or status
to present-day descendants who happen to have traced lines through them to
the more remote past.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2007 08:36:28

On 13 Apr., 23:43, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

Fletcher Christian with many descendants in Australia also has Royal (and
therefore medieval) ancestors.

Thanks Leo, and all who have contributed so usefully to date.

Fletcher Christian is an excellent example - he is a very early
arrival, with the kind of dubious reputation that Australian genealogy
is full of. In fact one of my school friends was a Christian, whose
parents had moved to the mainland from Norfolk.

An even better example may be Darcy Wentworth, who came with the
Second Fleet. He was not a convict (but had been acquitted three
times on charges of highway robbery!) and fathered a large brood by
various mistresses, most notably the patriot William Charles Wentworth
(whose great-grandson was also our local MP when I was a boy). Darcy
is said to have descended via an Irish line from the Wentworth
Woodhouse family. The ADB says this:

"The first of the Irish Wentworths to come to Australia could trace
his ancestry through twenty generations from Robert of Wentworth
Woodhouse in Yorkshire in the thirteenth century. His descendant,
D'Arcy Wentworth, went to Ireland as agent in Athlone to Wentworth
Dillon, fourth earl of Roscommon, during the reign of Charles II, and
established himself as a landowner at Fyanstown Castle in County
Meath. Some Irish Wentworths intermarried into the leading Anglo-Irish
families, but Robert, the third of the Irish Wentworths of Fyanstown
Castle, was an impecunious barrister with political ambitions which he
failed to realize even though a distant kinsman of the marquis of
Rockingham, and under him the family resources were completely
dissipated. His son D'Arcy, the father of the subject of this sketch,
was an innkeeper at Portadown. By 1822 William Wentworth, the elder
brother of D'Arcy of Parramatta, was probably the senior
representative of the male line of the family which had established
itself at Wentworth Woodhouse, though he had no hereditary claim to
the earldom of Strafford."

Are particulars of this descent known?

MA-R

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 15 apr 2007 02:07:26

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
On 13 Apr., 23:43, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:


Fletcher Christian with many descendants in Australia also has Royal (and
therefore medieval) ancestors.


Thanks Leo, and all who have contributed so usefully to date.

Fletcher Christian is an excellent example - he is a very early
arrival, with the kind of dubious reputation that Australian genealogy
is full of. In fact one of my school friends was a Christian, whose
parents had moved to the mainland from Norfolk.

An even better example may be Darcy Wentworth, who came with the
Second Fleet. He was not a convict (but had been acquitted three
times on charges of highway robbery!) and fathered a large brood by
various mistresses, most notably the patriot William Charles Wentworth
(whose great-grandson was also our local MP when I was a boy). Darcy
is said to have descended via an Irish line from the Wentworth
Woodhouse family. The ADB says this:

"The first of the Irish Wentworths to come to Australia could trace
his ancestry through twenty generations from Robert of Wentworth
Woodhouse in Yorkshire in the thirteenth century. His descendant,
D'Arcy Wentworth, went to Ireland as agent in Athlone to Wentworth
Dillon, fourth earl of Roscommon, during the reign of Charles II, and
established himself as a landowner at Fyanstown Castle in County
Meath. Some Irish Wentworths intermarried into the leading Anglo-Irish
families, but Robert, the third of the Irish Wentworths of Fyanstown
Castle, was an impecunious barrister with political ambitions which he
failed to realize even though a distant kinsman of the marquis of
Rockingham, and under him the family resources were completely
dissipated. His son D'Arcy, the father of the subject of this sketch,
was an innkeeper at Portadown. By 1822 William Wentworth, the elder
brother of D'Arcy of Parramatta, was probably the senior
representative of the male line of the family which had established
itself at Wentworth Woodhouse, though he had no hereditary claim to
the earldom of Strafford."

Are particulars of this descent known?

MA-R


Hi All:

I would be very interested in this descent. The Wentworths were very
large landholders. One of my ancestors was a tenant farmer of them in
the 1800's in Australia.

I have a number of convicts but none of known medieval descent, though I
have a free settler couple of medieval descent who arrived in Tasmania
in the early 1840s - Mainwaring Chitty and Emma Avenell.

Regards

Paul

Renia

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Renia » 15 apr 2007 12:14:02

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

An even better example may be Darcy Wentworth, who came with the
Second Fleet. He was not a convict (but had been acquitted three
times on charges of highway robbery!) and fathered a large brood by
various mistresses, most notably the patriot William Charles Wentworth
(whose great-grandson was also our local MP when I was a boy). Darcy
is said to have descended via an Irish line from the Wentworth
Woodhouse family. The ADB says this:

"The first of the Irish Wentworths to come to Australia could trace
his ancestry through twenty generations from Robert of Wentworth
Woodhouse in Yorkshire in the thirteenth century. His descendant,
D'Arcy Wentworth, went to Ireland as agent in Athlone to Wentworth
Dillon, fourth earl of Roscommon, during the reign of Charles II, and
established himself as a landowner at Fyanstown Castle in County
Meath. Some Irish Wentworths intermarried into the leading Anglo-Irish
families, but Robert, the third of the Irish Wentworths of Fyanstown
Castle, was an impecunious barrister with political ambitions which he
failed to realize even though a distant kinsman of the marquis of
Rockingham, and under him the family resources were completely
dissipated. His son D'Arcy, the father of the subject of this sketch,
was an innkeeper at Portadown. By 1822 William Wentworth, the elder
brother of D'Arcy of Parramatta, was probably the senior
representative of the male line of the family which had established
itself at Wentworth Woodhouse, though he had no hereditary claim to
the earldom of Strafford."

Are particulars of this descent known?

Try here for clues:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... I646226079

QUOTE
When D'Arcy Wentworth, the largest landholder in New South Wales, died
in 1827 he bequeathed all his real estate to his nine children. The
youngest of them, two-year-old Katherine, was given seven separate
estates for her sole benefit, plus a share in three others. However, her
estates, like those of her siblings, had been entailed by D'Arcy, in an
attempt to prevent their sale and to preserve them for future
generations. Katherine, who later married Benjamin Darley and, after his
death, William Bassett, had to wait half a century before the New South
Wales parliament eventually granted her the right to sell her land.

Came to Australia aboard the "Neptune" 2nd Fleet.

JANE AUSTEN'S AUNT was once at risk of transportation to Botany Bay for
shoplifting. It is piquant that Austen named two of her major male
characters Fitzwilliam Darcy in Pride and Prejudice and Captain
Wentworth in Sense and Sensibility, because a leading inhabitant of New
South Wales in those years was D'Arcy Wentworth, disreputable but
acknowledged kinsman of Lord Fitzwilliam. D'Arcy Wentworth's career
smacks more of Georgette Heyer than Jane Austen, since he was a
highwayman four times acquitted. Rather than push his luck further, he
went, a free man, as assistant surgeon with the Second Fleet in 1790. As
a young teenager Jane Austen may have read about him in the Times.

Remembered in Australian history, his origins somewhat fudged, as father
of the better-known W.C. Wentworth, D'Arcy turns out to be a complex and
significant character. All his life he was an outsider. Born in Ireland
in 1762, he was the youngest son of a Protestant innkeeper whose family
had come down in the world. D'Arcy qualified as an assistant surgeon in
London, but then gravitated to vice and crime; through flash arrogance,
Ritchie thinks, rather than a self-destructive urge.

Once in Australia, Wentworth spent his first six years on Norfolk
Island, the margin of marginalised New South Wales. Back in Sydney, he
still seemed too raffish for intimacy with the New South Wales Corps
clique, the Macarthurs and their like. Because of his professional
skills and an economic clout built up through trade, notably in rum,
Wentworth could not be ignored. Walking alone, he trod delicately
through the feuds and alliances which culminated in Governor Bligh's
overthrow in 1808.

Bligh had suspended Wentworth for allegedly using government prisoners
on his own private projects; so it was not surprising that Wentworth
sided with Macarthur and the men of property who made the Rum Rebellion.
But he did not draw too close to them, and when Governor Macquarie
arrived in 1810 Wentworth soon won favour with him.

By the end of 1810 the erstwhile outcast was principal surgeon, justice
of the peace, commissioner for turnpike roads, and superintendent of
police -- the last appointment beginning a venerable New South Wales
tradition of contentious appointments. Not surprisingly in one who
learned his political ethics in eighteenth century Ireland, Wentworth
tended to be a lax and negligent administrator, happy to leave the work
to subordinates while he got on with the serious business of enriching
himself. Except when his business interests brought out the bully in him
he was a humane justice who punished leniently. He weathered the
criticisms following Commissioner Bigge's reports in the early 1820s.
When a court of quarter session was set up in 1824 he would have been
its chairman but for failing health. Not bad for an ex-highwayman.

Success in the cut-throat business and factional politics of early New
South Wales often depended on the quality of aristocratic influence
which could be brought to bear in London. Where Macarthur had to exert
himself in courting Lord Camden or Sir Joseph Banks, Wentworth had the
inside running through his shadowy kinship with Lord Fitzwilliam.
UNQUOTE

Renia

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Renia » 15 apr 2007 12:14:40

Paul Mackenzie wrote:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

On 13 Apr., 23:43, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:


Fletcher Christian with many descendants in Australia also has Royal
(and
therefore medieval) ancestors.



Thanks Leo, and all who have contributed so usefully to date.

Fletcher Christian is an excellent example - he is a very early
arrival, with the kind of dubious reputation that Australian genealogy
is full of. In fact one of my school friends was a Christian, whose
parents had moved to the mainland from Norfolk.

An even better example may be Darcy Wentworth, who came with the
Second Fleet. He was not a convict (but had been acquitted three
times on charges of highway robbery!) and fathered a large brood by
various mistresses, most notably the patriot William Charles Wentworth
(whose great-grandson was also our local MP when I was a boy). Darcy
is said to have descended via an Irish line from the Wentworth
Woodhouse family. The ADB says this:

"The first of the Irish Wentworths to come to Australia could trace
his ancestry through twenty generations from Robert of Wentworth
Woodhouse in Yorkshire in the thirteenth century. His descendant,
D'Arcy Wentworth, went to Ireland as agent in Athlone to Wentworth
Dillon, fourth earl of Roscommon, during the reign of Charles II, and
established himself as a landowner at Fyanstown Castle in County
Meath. Some Irish Wentworths intermarried into the leading Anglo-Irish
families, but Robert, the third of the Irish Wentworths of Fyanstown
Castle, was an impecunious barrister with political ambitions which he
failed to realize even though a distant kinsman of the marquis of
Rockingham, and under him the family resources were completely
dissipated. His son D'Arcy, the father of the subject of this sketch,
was an innkeeper at Portadown. By 1822 William Wentworth, the elder
brother of D'Arcy of Parramatta, was probably the senior
representative of the male line of the family which had established
itself at Wentworth Woodhouse, though he had no hereditary claim to
the earldom of Strafford."

Are particulars of this descent known?

MA-R


Hi All:

I would be very interested in this descent. The Wentworths were very
large landholders. One of my ancestors was a tenant farmer of them in
the 1800's in Australia.

I have a number of convicts but none of known medieval descent, though I
have a free settler couple of medieval descent who arrived in Tasmania
in the early 1840s - Mainwaring Chitty and Emma Avenell.

See my other recent reply.

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 apr 2007 20:43:51

On Apr 13, 5:38 am, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R

A member of my great-grandmother's family emigrated to Australia
although I do not know the exact date except that it was after 1830
(the date of the family's emigration to Canada from Ireland) and
before 1893 when he died in Australia. The family was Barrett of
Castle Blake near Clonmel in Tipperary. The emigrant to Australia was
George L. Barrett, born 18 Jun 1822 in Ireland. He was mining in
Howler, Northern Territory, Australia in 1893 when he died of a
ruptured aorta in Palmerston. Although he did not marry, he had a
daughter named "Sarah" who, apparently, resided in Dunolly, Victoria.
He was the subject of an article published in Australian Family Tree
Connections, February 2001, by Jill Statton called "Public Trustee
Records"; he was chosen as an example of someone whose background was
available through such records.
As to royal descent, his mother was Caroline Butler (b. 1794 at
Grelah, Kilkenny - d. 22 Sep 1874 in Bath, England), daughter of
William Butler of Drom, d. 3 Jan 1812, mar. 1784 to Caroline Massy of
Duntrileague, 1768-1837 (dau. of the 1st Baron Massy). William was the
son of Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Drom, Wilford & Knockra, d. 1795,
& Elizabeth Lee of Waterford. Theobald was the son of Richard Butler
of Drom, b. 1710, & Margaret O'Brien. Richard was the son of James
Butler of Drom & Marjory Dalton; James was the son of James Butler of
Killeskehah & Margaret Burke; this James was the son of Theobald
Butler of Priestown, b. 2 Feb 1610 - d. 1652, & Margaret Blake of
Galway. Theobald was the son of James Butler, 2nd Baron Dunboyne, 1547
- 18 Feb 1624, & Margaret O'Brien of Thomond , d. 20 Feb 1636. James
was the son of Sir Edmund Butler, 1st Baron Dunboyne, 10th Lord
Dunboyne, d. 1566, & Cecilia McCarthy "de Muskrie". Sir Edmund was the
son of James Butler, 9th Lord Dunboyne, d. 15 January 1538, & Joanna
Butler of Ormond. She was the daughter of the 8th Lord Ormond, Geroit
Mor, & Margaret Fitzgerald of Kildare "The Great Countess". This line
was confirmed through correspondence with the late Lord Dunboyne, as
well as writings by family members early in the 20th Century and in
the late 19th Century (unaware of the royal connection but making
reference to the Dunboyne & Ormond families). The Ormond descent from
Edward I is well known.

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 apr 2007 23:06:42

On 16 Apr., 20:43, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Apr 13, 5:38 am, m...@btinternet.com wrote:





I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R

A member of my great-grandmother's family emigrated to Australia
although I do not know the exact date except that it was after 1830
(the date of the family's emigration to Canada from Ireland) and
before 1893 when he died in Australia. The family was Barrett of
Castle Blake near Clonmel in Tipperary. The emigrant to Australia was
George L. Barrett, born 18 Jun 1822 in Ireland. He was mining in
Howler, Northern Territory, Australia in 1893 when he died of a
ruptured aorta in Palmerston. Although he did not marry, he had a
daughter named "Sarah" who, apparently, resided in Dunolly, Victoria.
He was the subject of an article published in Australian Family Tree
Connections, February 2001, by Jill Statton called "Public Trustee
Records"; he was chosen as an example of someone whose background was
available through such records.
As to royal descent, his mother was Caroline Butler (b. 1794 at
Grelah, Kilkenny - d. 22 Sep 1874 in Bath, England), daughter of
William Butler of Drom, d. 3 Jan 1812, mar. 1784 to Caroline Massy of
Duntrileague, 1768-1837 (dau. of the 1st Baron Massy). William was the
son of Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Drom, Wilford & Knockra, d. 1795,
& Elizabeth Lee of Waterford. Theobald was the son of Richard Butler
of Drom, b. 1710, & Margaret O'Brien. Richard was the son of James
Butler of Drom & Marjory Dalton; James was the son of James Butler of
Killeskehah & Margaret Burke; this James was the son of Theobald
Butler of Priestown, b. 2 Feb 1610 - d. 1652, & Margaret Blake of
Galway. Theobald was the son of James Butler, 2nd Baron Dunboyne, 1547
- 18 Feb 1624, & Margaret O'Brien of Thomond , d. 20 Feb 1636. James
was the son of Sir Edmund Butler, 1st Baron Dunboyne, 10th Lord
Dunboyne, d. 1566, & Cecilia McCarthy "de Muskrie". Sir Edmund was the
son of James Butler, 9th Lord Dunboyne, d. 15 January 1538, & Joanna
Butler of Ormond. She was the daughter of the 8th Lord Ormond, Geroit
Mor, & Margaret Fitzgerald of Kildare "The Great Countess". This line
was confirmed through correspondence with the late Lord Dunboyne, as
well as writings by family members early in the 20th Century and in
the late 19th Century (unaware of the royal connection but making
reference to the Dunboyne & Ormond families). The Ormond descent from
Edward I is well known.

Thanks Bronwen - very interesting.

MA-R

wjhonson

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 17 apr 2007 00:02:26

If this ascent is to be believed than this line has more than one
royal ascent.
From this alledged Theobald Butler of Priestown b 1610 I have seven of
his 16 great-grandparents with royal English ascents.


I made the possibly false assumption that "Margaret O'Brien of
Thomond" fit as a daughter to
Donough O'Brien d 1624 by his wife Elizabeth FitzGerald.

If Margaret actually fits one generation earlier (which is possible)
she would lose several ascents, but not all of them.

I do not have a royal ascent yet for Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond who d 1553
nor for
Thomas FitzMaurice, 16th Lord of Kerry who d 1590

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2007 06:43:02

On Apr 17, 9:02 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
If this ascent is to be believed than this line has more than one
royal ascent.>From this alledged Theobald Butler of Priestown b 1610 I have seven of

his 16 great-grandparents with royal English ascents.

I made the possibly false assumption that "Margaret O'Brien of
Thomond" fit as a daughter to
Donough O'Brien d 1624 by his wife Elizabeth FitzGerald.

If Margaret actually fits one generation earlier (which is possible)
she would lose several ascents, but not all of them.

I do not have a royal ascent yet for Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond who d 1553
nor for
Thomas FitzMaurice, 16th Lord of Kerry who d 1590

Will Johnson

Hello listers,

Elizabeth MARKS c. l811-26 Mar 1890 at "Ingelba", Near Walcha. NSW who
married into our family was a supposed descendant of the earls of
Ormonde. See: Roots Web's WorldConnect Project: Heath and Gaul
Families
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... 665&id=I13

My ancestor Thomas Boorer (c. 1833-1909) and his brothers, Benjamin,
Stephen and William BOWRA or BOORER were descendants of King Edward I.
These boys arrived in Australia in the early 1850's.

Please check out my photos at: http://picasaweb.google.com/glenvillest ... nMonuments

Regards from a longtime lurker,
Carole

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2007 07:31:09

On 17 Apr., 06:43, glenvil...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
On Apr 17, 9:02 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:





If this ascent is to be believed than this line has more than one
royal ascent.>From this alledged Theobald Butler of Priestown b 1610 I have seven of

his 16 great-grandparents with royal English ascents.

I made the possibly false assumption that "Margaret O'Brien of
Thomond" fit as a daughter to
Donough O'Brien d 1624 by his wife Elizabeth FitzGerald.

If Margaret actually fits one generation earlier (which is possible)
she would lose several ascents, but not all of them.

I do not have a royal ascent yet for Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond who d 1553
nor for
Thomas FitzMaurice, 16th Lord of Kerry who d 1590

Will Johnson

Hello listers,

Elizabeth MARKS c. l811-26 Mar 1890 at "Ingelba", Near Walcha. NSW who
married into our family was a supposed descendant of the earls of
Ormonde. See: Roots Web's WorldConnect Project: Heath and Gaul
Familieshttp://worldconnect.genealogy.r ... =AHN&db=...

My ancestor Thomas Boorer (c. 1833-1909) and his brothers, Benjamin,
Stephen and William BOWRA or BOORER were descendants of King Edward I.
These boys arrived in Australia in the early 1850's.

Please check out my photos at:http://picasaweb.google.com/glenvillester/EuropeanMonuments

Regards from a longtime lurker,
Carole

Thanks, Carole. Are they from the Kentish Bowras (in Burke's Landed
Gentry)? Are they connected with Bowraville by any chance?

Best wishes, Michael

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2007 08:35:56

On Apr 17, 4:31 pm, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 17 Apr., 06:43, glenvil...@yahoo.com.au wrote:





On Apr 17, 9:02 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

If this ascent is to be believed than this line has more than one
royal ascent.>From this alledged Theobald Butler of Priestown b 1610 I have seven of

his 16 great-grandparents with royal English ascents.

I made the possibly false assumption that "Margaret O'Brien of
Thomond" fit as a daughter to
Donough O'Brien d 1624 by his wife Elizabeth FitzGerald.

If Margaret actually fits one generation earlier (which is possible)
she would lose several ascents, but not all of them.

I do not have a royal ascent yet for Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond who d 1553
nor for
Thomas FitzMaurice, 16th Lord of Kerry who d 1590

Will Johnson

Hello listers,

Elizabeth MARKS c. l811-26 Mar 1890 at "Ingelba", Near Walcha. NSW who
married into our family was a supposed descendant of the earls of
Ormonde. See: Roots Web's WorldConnect Project: Heath and Gaul
Familieshttp://worldconnect.genealogy.r ... =AHN&db=...

My ancestor Thomas Boorer (c. 1833-1909) and his brothers, Benjamin,
Stephen and William BOWRA or BOORER were descendants of King Edward I.
These boys arrived in Australia in the early 1850's.

Please check out my photos at:http://picasaweb.google.com/glenvillester/EuropeanMonuments

Regards from a longtime lurker,
Carole

Thanks, Carole. Are they from the Kentish Bowras (in Burke's Landed
Gentry)? Are they connected with Bowraville by any chance?

Best wishes, Michael- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The earlier members of the family were from Surrey, but the GARDs were
from Kent.

Regards,
Carole

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2007 07:15:50

On Apr 13, 5:38 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
The question is not so much Why the lack of interest in Australia? as Why
the incessant fuss in the US? as if GARDs somehow lend indentity or status
to present-day descendants who happen to have traced lines through them to
the more remote past.


Well, for one thing, look at how exciting it appears to be for
scholars of medieval genealogy many of whom are not in the US...

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2007 07:33:22

On Apr 16, 4:02 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
If this ascent is to be believed than this line has more than one
royal ascent.>From this alledged Theobald Butler of Priestown b 1610 I have seven of

his 16 great-grandparents with royal English ascents.

I made the possibly false assumption that "Margaret O'Brien of
Thomond" fit as a daughter to
Donough O'Brien d 1624 by his wife Elizabeth FitzGerald.

Margaret of Thomond was the daughter of Conor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of
Thomond (1535-1581) & Una/Wonafrit O'Brien of Arra. Your Donough
O'Brien was her brother. Of course, if you expand the definition of
"royal" beyond England, the O'Brien Earls of Thomond were the same
lineage as the older Kings of Ormond; Conor's grandfather styled
himself as the King of Thomond while his brother, Murrough, was the
1st Earl.
If Margaret actually fits one generation earlier (which is possible)
she would lose several ascents, but not all of them.

I do not have a royal ascent yet for Donough O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond who d 1553
nor for
Thomas FitzMaurice, 16th Lord of Kerry who d 1590

Will Johnson

The Butlers had a number of royal connections; I only mentioned the
one that is most famous and direct via the Butler-Bohun marriage..
Please refer to the lineages posted by the Butler Society and on
Genealogics.

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 apr 2007 08:53:50

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1176876950.732285.282200@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 13, 5:38 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
The question is not so much Why the lack of interest in Australia? as
Why
the incessant fuss in the US? as if GARDs somehow lend indentity or
status
to present-day descendants who happen to have traced lines through them
to
the more remote past.


Well, for one thing, look at how exciting it appears to be for
scholars of medieval genealogy many of whom are not in the US...

For _some_, but certainly not for others, in the US and elsewhere. Royal
descents matter not a jot to many genealogists: some are interested in the
way medieval people - of all ranks & conditions, equally - were related to
each other, rather than to themselves. Hence the post-medieval gateways to
royal ancestry are of vanishingly little interest to a lot of SGM readers,
as are unshared ones to most of the rest I would guess.

Peter Stewart

wjhonson

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 19 apr 2007 04:21:43

For Theobald Butler of Priestown 1610-52 I currently show that two of
his great-grandmothers were sisters. Joanna Butler who married James
Butler 9th Lord Dunboyne and Ellen Butler who married Donough O'Brien,
2nd Earl of Thomond; were sisters.

Both daughters of Piers Boteler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, self-styled from
1515-28 and actually so from 1538-9 (when he died) by his wife
Margaret FitzGerald d 1542

Both Piers and Margaret are 8th generation descendents from Edward I
of England

Gjest

Re: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval anc

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 apr 2007 05:49:23

On Apr 18, 8:21 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
For Theobald Butler of Priestown 1610-52 I currently show that two of
his great-grandmothers were sisters. Joanna Butler who married James
Butler 9th Lord Dunboyne and Ellen Butler who married Donough O'Brien,
2nd Earl of Thomond; were sisters.

Both daughters of Piers Boteler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, self-styled from
1515-28 and actually so from 1538-9 (when he died) by his wife
Margaret FitzGerald d 1542

Both Piers and Margaret are 8th generation descendents from Edward I
of England

Yes - although the "self-styled" status of Piers Butler was not
exactly so - his hereditary title of Earl of Ormond was "borrowed" by
Henry VIII to be given as a gift to the father of Anne Boleyn. After
Anne's death, the title was restored to Piers. I noted a typo in my
earlier post in which I referred to "Kings of Ormond"; obviously I
intended to say Kings of Thomond. In any case, my original point was
that some of his descendants, to whom I am related, went to Australia
in the 19th Century. Best, Bronwen

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