Foliot/Newmarch marriage

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John Higgins

Foliot/Newmarch marriage

Legg inn av John Higgins » 10 apr 2007 06:07:10

Back in 2002 and again in 2004 there were a number of interesting posts on the Foliot family, and particularly Sir Jordan Foliot, 1st Lord Foliot, and his wife Margery, dau. of Sir Adam Newmarch. In both 2002 and 2004 it was indicated that Margery Newmarch was a daughter of the Adam who married Isabel [or Elizabeth] Mowbray, although it appears equally possible from a chronological perspective that Margery could have been a sister, rather than a daughter, of this Adam and thus a daughter of his father, also Adam per CP 9:547.

Is it still the accepted conclusion that the younger Adam (mar. Mowbray) was Margery's father? I ask because Douglas Richardson's "Magna Carta Ancestry", published in 2005 after these posts, makes mention twice of Jordan Foliot and his wife Margery, but does not connect Margery in either case to her supposed parents Adam and Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray who appear elsewhere in the book. Is this simply an omission in MCA, or has there been a reconsideration that I missed in the archives?

John Ravilious, are you lurking out there? :-)

John P. Ravilious

Re: Foliot/Newmarch marriage

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 11 apr 2007 04:55:54

Dear John,

Just taking a brief break - not actively lurking, but will be
hopefully more active after 17 April.

Most of the pieces seem to fit re: the Foliot-Newmarch marriage,
but precision as to Margery's parentage is I think not yet achieved.
Sir Richard Foliot (d. ca. March 1299) was a supporter of King Henry
III against de Montfort - as a result, he had a grant of the King by a
fine dated 48 Hen. III, m. 4 [1264]:

' AA. 9 [vol. 117]. The King granted to Richard Folyot the mann'rs
of Adam de Newmarket [Newmarch] of Wilmersley [Womersley], Champsall,
Thorp, Bentley, Archesey, in the County of York. ' [Holmes, Wapentake
of Osgoldcross, YAJ X:363]

I tend to see the marriage of Sir Richard's son Jordan Foliot to
Margery de Newmarch as a mending of fences between Sir Adam de
Newmarch and Sir Richard. Jordan Foliot's son and heir, the next Sir
Richard Foliot, was born 25 Dec 1283: the IPM for his father, dated at
York, 23 June, 27 Edward (1299), states, ' Richard, son of the same
Jordan, is his nearest heir, and was of the age of fifteen on
Christmas last past ' [Yorks. Inqs. III:102-3]. It seems most likely
that Jordan's wife and Richard's mother was born say 1262-1267 given
Richard's birth date: this would work well with Sir Adam de Newmarch's
wife Isabel, or Elizabeth (evidently de Mowbray) being the mother of
Margery de Newmarch.


Doug Richardson some time ago cited evidence which stated that
' ...Elizabeth, daughter of Roger de Mowbray, married Adam de Newmarch
(d.ca. 1303), of Womersley, co. York. It cites a source which states
that Elizabeth had 30 librates of land in Althorpe, co. Lincoln in
marriage.' [see SGM archives]. She was further identified in a suit
of 1279 [abstract provided by Douglas Richardson]:

' Ralph fitzGalien brought a writ of aiel against Robert
Bouchard.
Robert answered that he only claimed the free tenement and
could not answer without Isabel daughter of Roger de Mowbray
in whom the fee and right lay and her husband Adam de Neumarche.
'

I think the chronology points to Margery de Newmarch being a
daughter of the younger Sir Adam de Newmarch. I have a long-term
project intended to deal with the Newmarch family and its identifiable
cadets, but this is in its infancy and unfortunately nowhere near
completion at this date.......

The names Isabel and Elizabeth were often found in this period
referring to the same individual: I wonder if in fact Elizabeth was
sometimes used as a Biblical name for christening, when the name
Isabel/Isabella was the 'secular' name used by the family. Perhaps
another of the list with more expertise on medieval nomenclature could
address the validity of this suggestion.

Cheers,

John


----------------------


On Apr 10, 1:07�am, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Back in 2002 and again in 2004 there were a number of interesting posts on the Foliot family, and particularly Sir Jordan Foliot, 1st Lord Foliot, and his wife Margery, dau. of Sir Adam Newmarch.  In both 2002 and 2004  it was indicated that Margery Newmarch was a daughter  of the Adam who married Isabel [or Elizabeth] Mowbray, although it appears equally possible from a chronological perspective that Margery could have been a sister, rather than a daughter, of this Adam and thus a daughter of his father, also Adam per CP 9:547.

Is it still the accepted conclusion that the younger Adam (mar. Mowbray) was Margery's father?  I ask because Douglas Richardson's "Magna Carta Ancestry", published in 2005 after these posts, makes mention twice of Jordan Foliot and his wife Margery, but does not connect Margery in either case to her supposed parents Adam and Isabel/Elizabeth Mowbray who appear elsewhere in the book.  Is this simply an omission in MCA, or has there been a reconsideration that I missed in the archives?

John Ravilious, are you lurking out there?  :-)

Douglas Richardson

Re: Foliot/Newmarch marriage

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 14 apr 2007 19:19:44

Dear John R. ~

Thank you for taking time from your busy tax season to share your
thoughts.

When you plot the known chronology of the descendants of Margery de
Newmarch, wife of Sir Jordan Foliot, 1st Lord Foliot, against the
known chronology of the descendants of Sir Adam de Newmarch (husband
of Elizabeth or Isabel de Mowbray), you find the generations match
each other. Thus, I am of the present opinion that Margery de
Newmarch, wife of Sir Jordan Foliot, was the sister of the Sir Adam de
Newmarch who married Elizabeth or Isabel de Mowbray. I should be
quick to point out that this method of analysis is merely an
indicator, and can not be considered absolute proof.

Elsewhere, we know that Elizabeth or Isabel de Mowbray was born no
earlier than 1238, and probably no later than 1249, and that Sir
Jordan Foliot was born no later than 1249. This suggests to me that
Elizabeth or Isabel de Mowbray and Sir Jordan Foliot were the same
approximate age and in the same generation. If correct, then the
evidence once again suggests that Jordan Foliot's wife, Margery de
Newmarch, was the sister-in-law of Elizabeth (or Isabel) de Mowbray,
rather than her daughter.

I'd appreciate hearing your comments when you have the time to
respond.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John P. Ravilious wrote:

< I think the chronology points to Margery de Newmarch being a
< daughter of the younger Sir Adam de Newmarch. I have a long-term
< project intended to deal with the Newmarch family and its
identifiable
< cadets, but this is in its infancy and unfortunately nowhere near
< completion at this date.......<
<
<
< Cheers,
<
< John
<

wjhonson

Re: Foliot/Newmarch marriage

Legg inn av wjhonson » 16 apr 2007 22:43:59

I think we can do better than this guess of 1238/48 for the birthdate
of Elizabeth or Isabel de Mowbray.

This would be based on the following chain of circumstances
1) That Maud (Matilda) de Beauchamp is the mother of this Elizabeth or
Isabel and that she married Robert de Mowbray, the father of this
Elizabeth or Isabel.
2) This marriage (1) is attested here http://geneajourney.com/bchmp1.html
and I have a note "about 1247"
3) This Roger de Mowbray was a Minor in 1230, and of age in 1240 I
have a note that just reads <a href = "http://content.ancestry.com/
Browse/BookView.aspx?
dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0053">Ancestral Roots, 8th Edition,
pg 29, Line 18A</a> without specifying what particular fact to which
this refers.
4) That Maud (Matilda) de Beauchamp is called "Eldest daughter" and
Sir William de Beauchamp by Ida Longespee
5) That Ida's marriage to William was "about 1232"

If all of this is accurate and can be backed up, then this Eliabeth or
Isabel de Mowbray must certainly have been born at the earliest in
1247.

Othan than the cited AR and geneajourney I don't anything to help in
this matter, although you'd think the life of Ida de Longespee might
be amenable to some primary documentation research.

Will Johnson

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