Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
I have now uploaded pages for Otgive of Luxemburg and some of her
ancestors to the Henry Project website. Because the evidence is more
complicated than usual, I have also included pages for some siblings
and step-parents.
The new pages are:
Cunégonde, wife of Wigeric and Ricuin
Wigeric, count in Bidgau
Ricuin, count of Verdun
Sigefroid of Luxemburg
Hedwig, wife of Sigefroid
Gozlin, brother of Sigefroid
Frédéric I, duke of Upper Lorraine (another brother)
Giselbert of Wallerfangen, son of Sigefroid
Frédéric, another son of Sigefroid
Otgive, wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders
Godefroid. count palatine
Gerberge, his daughter
Megingoz, her husband
Imiza/Ermentrude, their daughter
NN, he daughter, wife of Frédéric
Although certain specific points are discussed on other pages, the
long page of Cunégonde is where the most detailed discussion takes
place. As usual, I welcome comments.
I would especially like to thank Peter Stewart, not only for his
frequent comments on this material in the newsgroup, but also for
sharing so many items from the literature with me, without which I
would not have been able to write these pages. Special thanks are
also due to James Hansen and Chris Phillips for sharing additional
sources with me.
URLs for the Henry Project:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
(home page)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
(index of pages)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/at.htm
(Henry II ancestor table)
Stewart Baldwin
ancestors to the Henry Project website. Because the evidence is more
complicated than usual, I have also included pages for some siblings
and step-parents.
The new pages are:
Cunégonde, wife of Wigeric and Ricuin
Wigeric, count in Bidgau
Ricuin, count of Verdun
Sigefroid of Luxemburg
Hedwig, wife of Sigefroid
Gozlin, brother of Sigefroid
Frédéric I, duke of Upper Lorraine (another brother)
Giselbert of Wallerfangen, son of Sigefroid
Frédéric, another son of Sigefroid
Otgive, wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders
Godefroid. count palatine
Gerberge, his daughter
Megingoz, her husband
Imiza/Ermentrude, their daughter
NN, he daughter, wife of Frédéric
Although certain specific points are discussed on other pages, the
long page of Cunégonde is where the most detailed discussion takes
place. As usual, I welcome comments.
I would especially like to thank Peter Stewart, not only for his
frequent comments on this material in the newsgroup, but also for
sharing so many items from the literature with me, without which I
would not have been able to write these pages. Special thanks are
also due to James Hansen and Chris Phillips for sharing additional
sources with me.
URLs for the Henry Project:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
(home page)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
(index of pages)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/at.htm
(Henry II ancestor table)
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Count Megingoz [was: Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxembur
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n9ka13t2bkotlnbml3489ndn3ajcejsu8d@4ax.com...
This is the only one of the new pages I have had time to look at in detail
so far (though I have seen enough of the others to be sure that these are a
further outstanding contribution to internet resources).
A few minor notes:
(1) I am not convinced that Godefroid, who was killed in Bohemia, died as
early as 977 - according to 'Vita Adheleidis', his corpse was brought back
to his homeland and a tomb was constructed for him at Vilich, that was not
founded by his father Megingoz until 986, and there is nothing to suggest an
interval of 9 or so years after his death before this happened.
(2) There are a few typos in the Latin texts, for instance "constitueriter"
for "constitueretur", "herelitur" for "herilitur" and "Chrosto" for
"Christo". There are also a few omissions of text that establishes or
reinforces the point being substantiated, for example the words "migravit ex
hac luce" to explain that Megingoz actually died "in loco qui dicitur
Gellere", rather than just that he lived there after the death of his wife
as the truncated quotation suggests; and "voluit, ut defunctae sorori
succederet in regimine" to explain that Heribert wished Berta to be
succeeded by her sister Adelheid, placing this in his time as archbishop of
Cologne (from 9 July 999 to 16 March 1021) more securely than just stating
his name in the context as the quotation currently does.
(3) Archbishop Heribert died in 1021, as above, not 1023 - this is a mistake
by Holder-Egger in his editorial notes on pp 760 & 762 of Vita Adelheidis
(see Annales Coloniensis. MGH SS I p 99).
(4) Adelehid provides another example of the very different forms of her
name - she was called "Azela" in a bull of Pope Gregory V.
I look forward to reading more pages. Congratulations and thanks, Stewart,
for providing such thorough and expert work and for placing this free to all
on the www.
Peter Stewart
news:n9ka13t2bkotlnbml3489ndn3ajcejsu8d@4ax.com...
I have now uploaded pages for Otgive of Luxemburg and some of her
ancestors to the Henry Project website. Because the evidence is more
complicated than usual, I have also included pages for some siblings
and step-parents.
The new pages are:
Cunégonde, wife of Wigeric and Ricuin
Wigeric, count in Bidgau
Ricuin, count of Verdun
Sigefroid of Luxemburg
Hedwig, wife of Sigefroid
Gozlin, brother of Sigefroid
Frédéric I, duke of Upper Lorraine (another brother)
Giselbert of Wallerfangen, son of Sigefroid
Frédéric, another son of Sigefroid
Otgive, wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders
Godefroid. count palatine
Gerberge, his daughter
Megingoz, her husband
This is the only one of the new pages I have had time to look at in detail
so far (though I have seen enough of the others to be sure that these are a
further outstanding contribution to internet resources).
A few minor notes:
(1) I am not convinced that Godefroid, who was killed in Bohemia, died as
early as 977 - according to 'Vita Adheleidis', his corpse was brought back
to his homeland and a tomb was constructed for him at Vilich, that was not
founded by his father Megingoz until 986, and there is nothing to suggest an
interval of 9 or so years after his death before this happened.
(2) There are a few typos in the Latin texts, for instance "constitueriter"
for "constitueretur", "herelitur" for "herilitur" and "Chrosto" for
"Christo". There are also a few omissions of text that establishes or
reinforces the point being substantiated, for example the words "migravit ex
hac luce" to explain that Megingoz actually died "in loco qui dicitur
Gellere", rather than just that he lived there after the death of his wife
as the truncated quotation suggests; and "voluit, ut defunctae sorori
succederet in regimine" to explain that Heribert wished Berta to be
succeeded by her sister Adelheid, placing this in his time as archbishop of
Cologne (from 9 July 999 to 16 March 1021) more securely than just stating
his name in the context as the quotation currently does.
(3) Archbishop Heribert died in 1021, as above, not 1023 - this is a mistake
by Holder-Egger in his editorial notes on pp 760 & 762 of Vita Adelheidis
(see Annales Coloniensis. MGH SS I p 99).
(4) Adelehid provides another example of the very different forms of her
name - she was called "Azela" in a bull of Pope Gregory V.
I look forward to reading more pages. Congratulations and thanks, Stewart,
for providing such thorough and expert work and for placing this free to all
on the www.
Peter Stewart
-
Volucris
Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
Could Frédéric not have married the widow of his brother Giselbert?
Thus daughter Otgiva could be later thought of as a sister of the
brothers Luxemburg.
Hans Vogels
On 5 apr, 22:10, Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Thus daughter Otgiva could be later thought of as a sister of the
brothers Luxemburg.
Hans Vogels
On 5 apr, 22:10, Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
I have now uploaded pages for Otgive of Luxemburg and some of her
ancestors to the Henry Project website. Because the evidence is more
complicated than usual, I have also included pages for some siblings
and step-parents.
The new pages are:
Cunégonde, wife of Wigeric and Ricuin
Wigeric, count in Bidgau
Ricuin, count of Verdun
Sigefroid of Luxemburg
Hedwig, wife of Sigefroid
Gozlin, brother of Sigefroid
Frédéric I, duke of Upper Lorraine (another brother)
Giselbert of Wallerfangen, son of Sigefroid
Frédéric, another son of Sigefroid
Otgive, wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders
Godefroid. count palatine
Gerberge, his daughter
Megingoz, her husband
Imiza/Ermentrude, their daughter
NN, he daughter, wife of Frédéric
Although certain specific points are discussed on other pages, the
long page of Cunégonde is where the most detailed discussion takes
place. As usual, I welcome comments.
I would especially like to thank Peter Stewart, not only for his
frequent comments on this material in the newsgroup, but also for
sharing so many items from the literature with me, without which I
would not have been able to write these pages. Special thanks are
also due to James Hansen and Chris Phillips for sharing additional
sources with me.
URLs for the Henry Project:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
(home page)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
(index of pages)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/at.htm
(Henry II ancestor table)
Stewart Baldwin
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
Now that I'm getting a chance to take a close look at these excellent
new pages, a few questions come to mind.
Among the children of Frederick of Luxembourg, the notes for Frederick
d. 1065, say that he was succeeded as Duke of Lorraine by Godefroid the
Bearded. But wasn't this Godefroid born circa 1065? Was there an
interval between the two, where no Duke was acknowledged?
Roger LeBlanc
new pages, a few questions come to mind.
Among the children of Frederick of Luxembourg, the notes for Frederick
d. 1065, say that he was succeeded as Duke of Lorraine by Godefroid the
Bearded. But wasn't this Godefroid born circa 1065? Was there an
interval between the two, where no Duke was acknowledged?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.853.1176500378.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Mistaken identity - Godefroid the Bearded (son of Duke Gozelo who died in
April 1044) was count of Verdun from 1026 to September 1044, duke of Upper
Lorraine from 1044 to 1046 and duke of Lower Lorraine (succeeding Frederick
of Luxemburg) from 1065 to his death in December 1069.
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.853.1176500378.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Now that I'm getting a chance to take a close look at these excellent new
pages, a few questions come to mind.
Among the children of Frederick of Luxembourg, the notes for Frederick d.
1065, say that he was succeeded as Duke of Lorraine by Godefroid the
Bearded. But wasn't this Godefroid born circa 1065? Was there an interval
between the two, where no Duke was acknowledged?
Mistaken identity - Godefroid the Bearded (son of Duke Gozelo who died in
April 1044) was count of Verdun from 1026 to September 1044, duke of Upper
Lorraine from 1044 to 1046 and duke of Lower Lorraine (succeeding Frederick
of Luxemburg) from 1065 to his death in December 1069.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:TcVTh.13118$M.1841@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Somehow I deleted a second paragraph from the post above:
This Godefroid 'the Bearded' on the Henry Project page for Frederick of
Luxemburg was great-uncle (through his sister Countess Oda of Louvain & her
son Count Henri II) to another Godefroid, also called 'the Bearded', who was
duke of Lower Lorrain (Brabant) from 1106. This younger namesake is the man
I assume you meant as born ca 1065.
Peter Stewart
news:TcVTh.13118$M.1841@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.853.1176500378.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Now that I'm getting a chance to take a close look at these excellent new
pages, a few questions come to mind.
Among the children of Frederick of Luxembourg, the notes for Frederick d.
1065, say that he was succeeded as Duke of Lorraine by Godefroid the
Bearded. But wasn't this Godefroid born circa 1065? Was there an interval
between the two, where no Duke was acknowledged?
Mistaken identity - Godefroid the Bearded (son of Duke Gozelo who died in
April 1044) was count of Verdun from 1026 to September 1044, duke of Upper
Lorraine from 1044 to 1046 and duke of Lower Lorraine (succeeding
Frederick of Luxemburg) from 1065 to his death in December 1069.
Somehow I deleted a second paragraph from the post above:
This Godefroid 'the Bearded' on the Henry Project page for Frederick of
Luxemburg was great-uncle (through his sister Countess Oda of Louvain & her
son Count Henri II) to another Godefroid, also called 'the Bearded', who was
duke of Lower Lorrain (Brabant) from 1106. This younger namesake is the man
I assume you meant as born ca 1065.
Peter Stewart
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Count Megingoz [was: Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxe
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:33:42 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Thanks for the comments. I have now uploaded a minor revision of the
page on Megingoz, taking the above comments into account.
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
A few minor notes:
(1) I am not convinced that Godefroid, who was killed in Bohemia, died as
early as 977 - according to 'Vita Adheleidis', his corpse was brought back
to his homeland and a tomb was constructed for him at Vilich, that was not
founded by his father Megingoz until 986, and there is nothing to suggest an
interval of 9 or so years after his death before this happened.
(2) There are a few typos in the Latin texts, for instance "constitueriter"
for "constitueretur", "herelitur" for "herilitur" and "Chrosto" for
"Christo". There are also a few omissions of text that establishes or
reinforces the point being substantiated, for example the words "migravit ex
hac luce" to explain that Megingoz actually died "in loco qui dicitur
Gellere", rather than just that he lived there after the death of his wife
as the truncated quotation suggests; and "voluit, ut defunctae sorori
succederet in regimine" to explain that Heribert wished Berta to be
succeeded by her sister Adelheid, placing this in his time as archbishop of
Cologne (from 9 July 999 to 16 March 1021) more securely than just stating
his name in the context as the quotation currently does.
(3) Archbishop Heribert died in 1021, as above, not 1023 - this is a mistake
by Holder-Egger in his editorial notes on pp 760 & 762 of Vita Adelheidis
(see Annales Coloniensis. MGH SS I p 99).
(4) Adelehid provides another example of the very different forms of her
name - she was called "Azela" in a bull of Pope Gregory V.
Thanks for the comments. I have now uploaded a minor revision of the
page on Megingoz, taking the above comments into account.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Volucris
Re: Henry Project - new pages (Luxemburg)
Van: "Birds"
Datum: 25 Oct 2006
Onderwerp: Duke Godfried I Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre:
For what's its worth. Duke Godfried I himself must have been born in
1060 or earlier. He was sent to the emperial court in 1072 for his
military education. Frans J. Van Droogebroeck (page 44) assumes that
he must have been at least 12 years to learn the noble art of warfare.
See: F.J. Van Droogebroeck, "Paltsgraaf Herman II (+1085) en de
stichting van de abdij van Affligem (28 juni 1062)", page 38-95, in:
Jaarboek voor Middeleeuwse Geschiedenis 2, Hilversum 1999. It looks
like his indirect source was Chronicon Brabantiae of Petrus van der
Heyden (circa 1450).
His mother countess Adela died 5-1-1085 (deduction Droogebroeck page
44). She was not identhic to countess Adelheid "of Orthen", daughter
of a count Everhard and widow of a Henry, as is usualy assumed. Duke
Godfried did not inherit but aquired Orthen around 1120. See: drs.
P.Th.J. Kuijer, "'s-Hertogenbosch. Stad in het hertogdom Brabant ca.
1185-1629", page 29, Zwolle 2000
Hans Vogels
On 15 apr, 01:25, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
Datum: 25 Oct 2006
Onderwerp: Duke Godfried I Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre:
For what's its worth. Duke Godfried I himself must have been born in
1060 or earlier. He was sent to the emperial court in 1072 for his
military education. Frans J. Van Droogebroeck (page 44) assumes that
he must have been at least 12 years to learn the noble art of warfare.
See: F.J. Van Droogebroeck, "Paltsgraaf Herman II (+1085) en de
stichting van de abdij van Affligem (28 juni 1062)", page 38-95, in:
Jaarboek voor Middeleeuwse Geschiedenis 2, Hilversum 1999. It looks
like his indirect source was Chronicon Brabantiae of Petrus van der
Heyden (circa 1450).
His mother countess Adela died 5-1-1085 (deduction Droogebroeck page
44). She was not identhic to countess Adelheid "of Orthen", daughter
of a count Everhard and widow of a Henry, as is usualy assumed. Duke
Godfried did not inherit but aquired Orthen around 1120. See: drs.
P.Th.J. Kuijer, "'s-Hertogenbosch. Stad in het hertogdom Brabant ca.
1185-1629", page 29, Zwolle 2000
Hans Vogels
On 15 apr, 01:25, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:TcVTh.13118$M.1841@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
[snip]
This Godefroid 'the Bearded' on the Henry Project page for Frederick of
Luxemburg was great-uncle (through his sister Countess Oda of Louvain & her
son Count Henri II) to another Godefroid, also called 'the Bearded', who was
duke of Lower Lorrain (Brabant) from 1106. This younger namesake is the man
I assume you meant as born ca 1065.
Peter Stewart
-
Volucris
A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count in Ki
To the previous question I could add the observation that count
Frédéric (graf Friedrich von Moselgau und herr von Gleiberg, + 1019)
seems to have married 'late'. His eldest son Heinrich is mentioned
from 1026 (possible 1024), Giselbert from 1030, Friedrich from 1033,
Theoderich from 1036, Hermann from 1045, Adalbero from 1046. Their
father could have started thinking of marrying after the death of his
elder brother Giselbert in 1004.
The possibility that Friedrich married the widow (good bloodline) of
his brother Giselbert does not seem to have been researched or
discussed. In this scenario Otgiva could have been a daughter of a
count Giselbert as well as being the elder sister of the known
brothers. It would provide an answer to the two options on the
paternity of Otgiva.
Hans Vogels
On 12 apr, 18:14, "Volucris" <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Frédéric (graf Friedrich von Moselgau und herr von Gleiberg, + 1019)
seems to have married 'late'. His eldest son Heinrich is mentioned
from 1026 (possible 1024), Giselbert from 1030, Friedrich from 1033,
Theoderich from 1036, Hermann from 1045, Adalbero from 1046. Their
father could have started thinking of marrying after the death of his
elder brother Giselbert in 1004.
The possibility that Friedrich married the widow (good bloodline) of
his brother Giselbert does not seem to have been researched or
discussed. In this scenario Otgiva could have been a daughter of a
count Giselbert as well as being the elder sister of the known
brothers. It would provide an answer to the two options on the
paternity of Otgiva.
Hans Vogels
On 12 apr, 18:14, "Volucris" <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Could Frédéric not have married the widow of his brother Giselbert?
Thus daughter Otgiva could be later thought of as a sister of the
brothers Luxemburg.
Hans Vogels
On 5 apr, 22:10, Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
I have now uploaded pages for Otgive of Luxemburg and some of her
ancestors to the Henry Project website. Because the evidence is more
complicated than usual, I have also included pages for some siblings
and step-parents.
The new pages are:
Cunégonde, wife of Wigeric and Ricuin
Wigeric, count in Bidgau
Ricuin, count of Verdun
Sigefroid of Luxemburg
Hedwig, wife of Sigefroid
Gozlin, brother of Sigefroid
Frédéric I, duke of Upper Lorraine (another brother)
Giselbert of Wallerfangen, son of Sigefroid
Frédéric, another son of Sigefroid
Otgive, wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders
Godefroid. count palatine
Gerberge, his daughter
Megingoz, her husband
Imiza/Ermentrude, their daughter
NN, he daughter, wife of Frédéric
Although certain specific points are discussed on other pages, the
long page of Cunégonde is where the most detailed discussion takes
place. As usual, I welcome comments.
I would especially like to thank Peter Stewart, not only for his
frequent comments on this material in the newsgroup, but also for
sharing so many items from the literature with me, without which I
would not have been able to write these pages. Special thanks are
also due to James Hansen and Chris Phillips for sharing additional
sources with me.
URLs for the Henry Project:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/henry.htm
(home page)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm
(index of pages)
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/at.htm
(Henry II ancestor table)
Stewart Baldwin- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
-
Peter Stewart
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
"Volucris" <volucris@kpnplanet.nl> wrote in message
news:1176793181.746263.77950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
This is an implausible scenario for a few reasons. First, it is scarcely
credible that a brother of the empress Kunugunde (later canonised) would
have done something so unholy as to marry the widow of their deceased
brother, and that he could have done so without creating a scandal that we
would hear about.
Secondly, the chronology is all but impossibly tight: Giselbert was killed
on 18 May 1004, and if he left a widow at all (for which we have no direct
evidence) she presumably did not remarry until a year later, say late May
1005 at the earliest. Frederic's eldest son Heinric appears as a count in
January 1026, occurring in a document misdated 1025 (though in the second
year of Konrad the Salian, who became German king in September 1024).
Frederic had died in 1019, and there is no evidence I know of that his heir
was under age at this time. His daughter Irmentrud, Heinric's full sister,
married Count Welf II probably ca 1015, having two children within a few
years after this.
Without some convincing argument to the contrary, I can see no reason to
believe that these two were born after ca February 1006, much less to a
woman who had been married to their paternal uncle until May 1004.
Peter Stewart
news:1176793181.746263.77950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
To the previous question I could add the observation that count
Frédéric (graf Friedrich von Moselgau und herr von Gleiberg,
+ 1019) seems to have married 'late'. His eldest son Heinrich is
mentioned from 1026 (possible 1024), Giselbert from 1030,
Friedrich from 1033, Theoderich from 1036, Hermann from
1045, Adalbero from 1046. Their father could have started
thinking of marrying after the death of his elder brother
Giselbert in 1004.
The possibility that Friedrich married the widow (good bloodline)
of his brother Giselbert does not seem to have been researched or
discussed. In this scenario Otgiva could have been a daughter of a
count Giselbert as well as being the elder sister of the known
brothers. It would provide an answer to the two options on the
paternity of Otgiva.
This is an implausible scenario for a few reasons. First, it is scarcely
credible that a brother of the empress Kunugunde (later canonised) would
have done something so unholy as to marry the widow of their deceased
brother, and that he could have done so without creating a scandal that we
would hear about.
Secondly, the chronology is all but impossibly tight: Giselbert was killed
on 18 May 1004, and if he left a widow at all (for which we have no direct
evidence) she presumably did not remarry until a year later, say late May
1005 at the earliest. Frederic's eldest son Heinric appears as a count in
January 1026, occurring in a document misdated 1025 (though in the second
year of Konrad the Salian, who became German king in September 1024).
Frederic had died in 1019, and there is no evidence I know of that his heir
was under age at this time. His daughter Irmentrud, Heinric's full sister,
married Count Welf II probably ca 1015, having two children within a few
years after this.
Without some convincing argument to the contrary, I can see no reason to
believe that these two were born after ca February 1006, much less to a
woman who had been married to their paternal uncle until May 1004.
Peter Stewart
-
Volucris
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
Why should the remarrying of the widow to her brother in law be
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
It is known that at some point a strife arose between the emperor and
his Luxembourgian brother in laws. The strife is known as "die
Moselfehde" and seems to have started after the election in 1008 of
Adalbero (of Luxembourg) as archbishop of Trier. That might have been
the trigger for the emperor if he was unhappy with the situation of
the marriage of his brother in law. If he was unhappy!
Though not quite similar a later example is known: graf Wilhelm von
Gulich (+ 1278) married Richardis von Geldern, the sister of his death
wife Margarete von Geldern. No troubles are known to me from this
remarrying.
Irmentrud is indeed mentioned as a sister of Heinric. A halfsister is
a sister as well, as would Otgiva have been. But that need not be. If
Otgiva remarried in say may 1005 a daughter could have been born early
in 1006 and be of the marrying age early in 1018. Around 1020 she
certainly would have reached her puberty.
De date ca 1015 makes me curious. It seems to be an assumption as no
hard facts exist. Heinz Renn (1941) mentions that the daughter
Kunigunde must have been born at least just after 1020. Her son Welf
IV from her marriage with Azzo II von Este, must in 1055 at least have
been 15 years of age. The marriage of Kunigunde and Azzo therefore
must date before 1040. Renn places the marriage of Azzo - with regard
to the suggested birth of Azzo and age - of him and Irmentrud in "das
erste Jahrzehnt des 11. Jahrhunderts". You mentioned ca. 1015.
We have therefore a few assumptions and no hard facts with regard to
the actual marriage year of Irmentrud and Welf II. Only the conclusion
of Renn that Welf IV must have been at least 15 in 1055. But how
certain is even that conclusion in this chain of assumptions?
Even if eventually the chronology dictates that the marriage of
Irmentrud must be placed ca. 1015 it is still possible that she could
have been a half sister to the brothers.
Therefore I am not quite convinced yet that the suggested scenario is
unplausible.
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 11:26, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
It is known that at some point a strife arose between the emperor and
his Luxembourgian brother in laws. The strife is known as "die
Moselfehde" and seems to have started after the election in 1008 of
Adalbero (of Luxembourg) as archbishop of Trier. That might have been
the trigger for the emperor if he was unhappy with the situation of
the marriage of his brother in law. If he was unhappy!
Though not quite similar a later example is known: graf Wilhelm von
Gulich (+ 1278) married Richardis von Geldern, the sister of his death
wife Margarete von Geldern. No troubles are known to me from this
remarrying.
Irmentrud is indeed mentioned as a sister of Heinric. A halfsister is
a sister as well, as would Otgiva have been. But that need not be. If
Otgiva remarried in say may 1005 a daughter could have been born early
in 1006 and be of the marrying age early in 1018. Around 1020 she
certainly would have reached her puberty.
De date ca 1015 makes me curious. It seems to be an assumption as no
hard facts exist. Heinz Renn (1941) mentions that the daughter
Kunigunde must have been born at least just after 1020. Her son Welf
IV from her marriage with Azzo II von Este, must in 1055 at least have
been 15 years of age. The marriage of Kunigunde and Azzo therefore
must date before 1040. Renn places the marriage of Azzo - with regard
to the suggested birth of Azzo and age - of him and Irmentrud in "das
erste Jahrzehnt des 11. Jahrhunderts". You mentioned ca. 1015.
We have therefore a few assumptions and no hard facts with regard to
the actual marriage year of Irmentrud and Welf II. Only the conclusion
of Renn that Welf IV must have been at least 15 in 1055. But how
certain is even that conclusion in this chain of assumptions?
Even if eventually the chronology dictates that the marriage of
Irmentrud must be placed ca. 1015 it is still possible that she could
have been a half sister to the brothers.
Therefore I am not quite convinced yet that the suggested scenario is
unplausible.
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 11:26, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"Volucris" <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote in message
news:1176793181.746263.77950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
To the previous question I could add the observation that count
Frédéric (graf Friedrich von Moselgau und herr von Gleiberg,
+ 1019) seems to have married 'late'. His eldest son Heinrich is
mentioned from 1026 (possible 1024), Giselbert from 1030,
Friedrich from 1033, Theoderich from 1036, Hermann from
1045, Adalbero from 1046. Their father could have started
thinking of marrying after the death of his elder brother
Giselbert in 1004.
The possibility that Friedrich married the widow (good bloodline)
of his brother Giselbert does not seem to have been researched or
discussed. In this scenario Otgiva could have been a daughter of a
count Giselbert as well as being the elder sister of the known
brothers. It would provide an answer to the two options on the
paternity of Otgiva.
This is an implausible scenario for a few reasons. First, it is scarcely
credible that a brother of the empress Kunugunde (later canonised) would
have done something so unholy as to marry the widow of their deceased
brother, and that he could have done so without creating a scandal that we
would hear about.
Secondly, the chronology is all but impossibly tight: Giselbert was killed
on 18 May 1004, and if he left a widow at all (for which we have no direct
evidence) she presumably did not remarry until a year later, say late May
1005 at the earliest. Frederic's eldest son Heinric appears as a count in
January 1026, occurring in a document misdated 1025 (though in the second
year of Konrad the Salian, who became German king in September 1024).
Frederic had died in 1019, and there is no evidence I know of that his heir
was under age at this time. His daughter Irmentrud, Heinric's full sister,
married Count Welf II probably ca 1015, having two children within a few
years after this.
Without some convincing argument to the contrary, I can see no reason to
believe that these two were born after ca February 1006, much less to a
woman who had been married to their paternal uncle until May 1004.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
On Apr 17, 12:33 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
On the contrary, Neverthless, as Henry VIII could tell you,
dispensation was specifically required before such a marriage (if
consummated) could be canonically valid. It is one of those instances
in which the Scriptures are internally contradictory (i.e. while
Deuteronomy XXV, v 5 compels such marriages, Leviticus XVIII, v16
appears to forbid them...)
MA-R
Why should the remarrying of the widow to her brother in law be
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
On the contrary, Neverthless, as Henry VIII could tell you,
dispensation was specifically required before such a marriage (if
consummated) could be canonically valid. It is one of those instances
in which the Scriptures are internally contradictory (i.e. while
Deuteronomy XXV, v 5 compels such marriages, Leviticus XVIII, v16
appears to forbid them...)
MA-R
-
Volucris
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
There must be Church jurisprudence on this internal contradiction
then?
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 14:43, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
then?
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 14:43, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:33 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Why should the remarrying of the widow to her brother in law be
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
On the contrary, Neverthless, as Henry VIII could tell you,
dispensation was specifically required before such a marriage (if
consummated) could be canonically valid. It is one of those instances
in which the Scriptures are internally contradictory (i.e. while
Deuteronomy XXV, v 5 compels such marriages, Leviticus XVIII, v16
appears to forbid them...)
MA-R
-
Volucris
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
Henry VIII lived in later times.
Was the Church Law in his time the same as around 1000?
Thought that the Church succesfully annexated the function of marriage
(and limitations) within their full jurisdiction around 1100?
And that around 1000 they could only spiritually advise but could not
dictate worldly policy.
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 14:43, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Was the Church Law in his time the same as around 1000?
Thought that the Church succesfully annexated the function of marriage
(and limitations) within their full jurisdiction around 1100?
And that around 1000 they could only spiritually advise but could not
dictate worldly policy.
Hans Vogels
On 17 apr, 14:43, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:33 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Why should the remarrying of the widow to her brother in law be
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
On the contrary, Neverthless, as Henry VIII could tell you,
dispensation was specifically required before such a marriage (if
consummated) could be canonically valid. It is one of those instances
in which the Scriptures are internally contradictory (i.e. while
Deuteronomy XXV, v 5 compels such marriages, Leviticus XVIII, v16
appears to forbid them...)
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
On 17 apr, 14:43, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:33 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Why should the remarrying of the widow to her brother in law be
unholy?
Can we not find in the Bible examples that suggest it being quite
naturally that a eligible brother was obliged to marry the widow of
his brother?
The churchfathers knew their Bible inside out as it was prescribed
literature.
So from the point of the Scriptures nothing could be made against it.
On the contrary, Neverthless, as Henry VIII could tell you,
dispensation was specifically required before such a marriage (if
consummated) could be canonically valid. It is one of those instances
in which the Scriptures are internally contradictory (i.e. while
Deuteronomy XXV, v 5 compels such marriages, Leviticus XVIII, v16
appears to forbid them...)
On Apr 17, 2:08 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Henry VIII lived in later times.
Was the Church Law in his time the same as around 1000?
Thought that the Church succesfully annexated the function of marriage
(and limitations) within their full jurisdiction around 1100?
And that around 1000 they could only spiritually advise but could not
dictate worldly policy.
Sorry - I can't say - but as the Old Testament itself was around well
before 1000 AD, the contradictory arguments from Scripture were both
out there at the time in question. The following site details the
relevant canon law back to at least 1059 (when the rules were at their
strictest) but it is not clear what the position was before that date
(although it implies it had been an issue for some centuries by that
time):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01178a.htm
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about this will be able to
comment further.
Regards, Michael
-
Peter Stewart
Re: A second marriage for N.N. daughter of Heribert, count i
"Volucris" <volucris@kpnplanet.nl> wrote in message
news:1176815284.827746.51830@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Canon law on this is absolutely clear against such a marriage, and this was
far more rigidly enforced in the 10th & 11th centuries than later.
The relevant prohibition is: "Nullum in utroque sexu permittimus ex
propinquitate sanguinis sui uel uxoris usque in septimum generis gradum
uxorem ducere" (We do not permit those of either sex to marry blood
relatives of themselves or of their spouses within seven degrees of
descent).
In 1004 a marriage of a nobleman to his widowed sister-in-law would have
been considered a flagrant case of incest from close affinity. A case for
total silence on such an event in the family of Empress Kunigunde would be
extremely hard to credit, injunctions for & against in the Old Testament
notwithstanding.
Peter Stewart
news:1176815284.827746.51830@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Henry VIII lived in later times.
Was the Church Law in his time the same as around 1000?
Thought that the Church succesfully annexated the function of marriage
(and limitations) within their full jurisdiction around 1100?
And that around 1000 they could only spiritually advise but could not
dictate worldly policy.
Canon law on this is absolutely clear against such a marriage, and this was
far more rigidly enforced in the 10th & 11th centuries than later.
The relevant prohibition is: "Nullum in utroque sexu permittimus ex
propinquitate sanguinis sui uel uxoris usque in septimum generis gradum
uxorem ducere" (We do not permit those of either sex to marry blood
relatives of themselves or of their spouses within seven degrees of
descent).
In 1004 a marriage of a nobleman to his widowed sister-in-law would have
been considered a flagrant case of incest from close affinity. A case for
total silence on such an event in the family of Empress Kunigunde would be
extremely hard to credit, injunctions for & against in the Old Testament
notwithstanding.
Peter Stewart