Avise de Lancaster
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
AnnG
Avise de Lancaster
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Avise de Lancaster
In message of 3 Apr, "AnnG" <anngodden@googlemail.com> wrote:
Yes.
References to examine are:
DomesDay Deescendants by Keats-Rohan, p. 603
Complete Peerage, vol IV Appx I, p. 762 and Table on p. 771.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
Yes.
References to examine are:
DomesDay Deescendants by Keats-Rohan, p. 603
Complete Peerage, vol IV Appx I, p. 762 and Table on p. 771.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
RE: Avise de Lancaster
Hi,
In response to your question, it appears that Avise de Lancaster married
both William Peverel and Richard de Morville. I find the following in
"Domesday Descendants" on page 603 under "de Morville, Ricardus":
"Son of Hugh de Morville (q.v.) and Beatrice de Beauchamp. He succeeded his
father c.1162 as constable of Scotland, though he lost land held of the
honour of Huntingdon in 1173. He married Avice, daughter of William of
Lancaster and widow of William II Peverel of Nottingham (d.1154). He died
in 1189 leaving a son William (d.1196), and a daughter and eventual heiress
Helen, wife of Roland fitz Uctred of Galloway. Cf. Farrer ii, 357."
I hope this is helpful.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: AnnG [mailto:anngodden@googlemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Avise de Lancaster
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
In response to your question, it appears that Avise de Lancaster married
both William Peverel and Richard de Morville. I find the following in
"Domesday Descendants" on page 603 under "de Morville, Ricardus":
"Son of Hugh de Morville (q.v.) and Beatrice de Beauchamp. He succeeded his
father c.1162 as constable of Scotland, though he lost land held of the
honour of Huntingdon in 1173. He married Avice, daughter of William of
Lancaster and widow of William II Peverel of Nottingham (d.1154). He died
in 1189 leaving a son William (d.1196), and a daughter and eventual heiress
Helen, wife of Roland fitz Uctred of Galloway. Cf. Farrer ii, 357."
I hope this is helpful.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: AnnG [mailto:anngodden@googlemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Avise de Lancaster
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
-
Ian Fettes
Re: Avise de Lancaster
I do not think it is this simple. They appear to me to be two different
women.
The text in Domesday Descendants quoted by Gordon Kirkemo in his recent
posting indicated that Avice was daughter of William of Lancaster. The
Complete Peerage p 762 says that Avice "was presumably a da. of Count Roger
the Poitevin (cognomine Pictaviensis), Lord of the honour of Lancaster, by
his wife Aumodis, Countess of La Marche". Different parents.
The chronology is also awkward. Margaret Peverell, da. of William Peverell
and Avice, had first son William de Ferrers in 1136. Presumably Margaret
was therefore born prior to 1120. That would make Avice born about 1100.
Helena de Morville was born in 1153, make a vaery late birth for the same
Avice.
Does anyone have some firmer dates that might clarify matters?
Ian Fettes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Avise de Lancaster
women.
The text in Domesday Descendants quoted by Gordon Kirkemo in his recent
posting indicated that Avice was daughter of William of Lancaster. The
Complete Peerage p 762 says that Avice "was presumably a da. of Count Roger
the Poitevin (cognomine Pictaviensis), Lord of the honour of Lancaster, by
his wife Aumodis, Countess of La Marche". Different parents.
The chronology is also awkward. Margaret Peverell, da. of William Peverell
and Avice, had first son William de Ferrers in 1136. Presumably Margaret
was therefore born prior to 1120. That would make Avice born about 1100.
Helena de Morville was born in 1153, make a vaery late birth for the same
Avice.
Does anyone have some firmer dates that might clarify matters?
Ian Fettes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Avise de Lancaster
In message of 3 Apr, "AnnG" <anngodden@googlemail.com> wrote:
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
Yes.
References to examine are:
DomesDay Deescendants by Keats-Rohan, p. 603
Complete Peerage, vol IV Appx I, p. 762 and Table on p. 771.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
CE Wood
Re: Avise de Lancaster
Is there any proof that there were NOT two Avices?
One, born about 1088, the daughter of Roger, the Pointevin,
Montgomery, married to William the Younger Peverel, and mother to
Margaret and Robert.
The other, born about 1115, daughter of William I de Lancaster, and
mother of Elena Morville.
It WOULD solve many problematic birth dates (including children's
spouses) and Avice's age at these births, among others.
CE Wood
On Apr 3, 4:38 pm, "Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kirk...@comcast.net>
wrote:
One, born about 1088, the daughter of Roger, the Pointevin,
Montgomery, married to William the Younger Peverel, and mother to
Margaret and Robert.
The other, born about 1115, daughter of William I de Lancaster, and
mother of Elena Morville.
It WOULD solve many problematic birth dates (including children's
spouses) and Avice's age at these births, among others.
CE Wood
On Apr 3, 4:38 pm, "Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kirk...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Hi,
In response to your question, it appears that Avise de Lancaster married
both William Peverel and Richard de Morville. I find the following in
"Domesday Descendants" on page 603 under "de Morville, Ricardus":
"Son of Hugh de Morville (q.v.) and Beatrice de Beauchamp. He succeeded his
father c.1162 as constable of Scotland, though he lost land held of the
honour of Huntingdon in 1173. He married Avice, daughter of William of
Lancaster and widow of William II Peverel of Nottingham (d.1154). He died
in 1189 leaving a son William (d.1196), and a daughter and eventual heiress
Helen, wife of Roland fitz Uctred of Galloway. Cf. Farrer ii, 357."
I hope this is helpful.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: AnnG [mailto:anngod...@googlemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:51 PM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Avise de Lancaster
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.
-
wjhonson
Re: Avise de Lancaster
Here are my notes on the one, two, three Avise de Lancaster
On 12/17/05 Emmet Butler stated that "Avice de Lancaster whose father
as I understand it was Roger de Montgomery and Ademonde de la Marche
married William Peverell"
And then he states that another Avice married Richard de Morville, and
that she was the daughter of William II de Lancaster *and* was born
five years after the first Avice's death.
Douglas Richardson states that Avice was second wife to William
Peveral the younger and that CP states Avice was living in 1149, he
discounts that this Avice was daughter of Count Roger but instead
would place her as sister or daughter of William (FitzGilbert) de
Lancaster I. He continues that JCB Sharp quotes that Avice de
Lancaster married firstly William Peveral and secondly Richard de
Morville.
Douglas believes she was born no later than 1134
I have Richard de Morville d 1189 citing
Tim Powys-Lybbe http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps12/ps12_446.htm
Also that he was an adult by 1166 see here where he is called "the
constable"
[William the Lion, King of Scotland] ' W. Rex Scottorum ', issued
charter dated at Perth, ca. 1166x1170 [witnessed by Earl David of
Huntingdon, Nicholas the chancellor, Earl Waldeve of Dunbar, Earl
Duncan of Fife, Richard de Morville the constable, Walter fitz Alan
the steward, David Olifard, Saier de Quincy and Robert de Quincy]
granting the lands of Aberbotherin to Coupar priory, Angus [Coupar I:
1, No. I[2]]
Citing AR7
2 Gundred de Warenne married William I de Lancaster, Baron of Kendal
3 Avice de Lancaster married Sir Richard de Morville, Kt. of Lauder,
Constable of Scotland
Now I ALSO have reference to an Avice de Lancaster as wife to William
de Lindsey of Luffnes and it seems to me that this Avice must be a
seperate woman and that this family must be identical with a hitherto
seperate couple who I have called
Alicia de Lancaster and her husband William de Lindsey, Lord of
Lamberton
Will Johnson
On 12/17/05 Emmet Butler stated that "Avice de Lancaster whose father
as I understand it was Roger de Montgomery and Ademonde de la Marche
married William Peverell"
And then he states that another Avice married Richard de Morville, and
that she was the daughter of William II de Lancaster *and* was born
five years after the first Avice's death.
Douglas Richardson states that Avice was second wife to William
Peveral the younger and that CP states Avice was living in 1149, he
discounts that this Avice was daughter of Count Roger but instead
would place her as sister or daughter of William (FitzGilbert) de
Lancaster I. He continues that JCB Sharp quotes that Avice de
Lancaster married firstly William Peveral and secondly Richard de
Morville.
Douglas believes she was born no later than 1134
I have Richard de Morville d 1189 citing
Tim Powys-Lybbe http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps12/ps12_446.htm
Also that he was an adult by 1166 see here where he is called "the
constable"
[William the Lion, King of Scotland] ' W. Rex Scottorum ', issued
charter dated at Perth, ca. 1166x1170 [witnessed by Earl David of
Huntingdon, Nicholas the chancellor, Earl Waldeve of Dunbar, Earl
Duncan of Fife, Richard de Morville the constable, Walter fitz Alan
the steward, David Olifard, Saier de Quincy and Robert de Quincy]
granting the lands of Aberbotherin to Coupar priory, Angus [Coupar I:
1, No. I[2]]
Citing AR7
2 Gundred de Warenne married William I de Lancaster, Baron of Kendal
3 Avice de Lancaster married Sir Richard de Morville, Kt. of Lauder,
Constable of Scotland
Now I ALSO have reference to an Avice de Lancaster as wife to William
de Lindsey of Luffnes and it seems to me that this Avice must be a
seperate woman and that this family must be identical with a hitherto
seperate couple who I have called
Alicia de Lancaster and her husband William de Lindsey, Lord of
Lamberton
Will Johnson
-
AnnG
Re: Avise de Lancaster
On 4 Apr, 03:26, "CE Wood" <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
Thank you to everyone.
Is there any proof that there were NOT two Avices?
One, born about 1088, the daughter of Roger, the Pointevin,
Montgomery, married to William the Younger Peverel, and mother to
Margaret and Robert.
The other, born about 1115, daughter of William I de Lancaster, and
mother of Elena Morville.
It WOULD solve many problematic birth dates (including children's
spouses) and Avice's age at these births, among others.
CE Wood
On Apr 3, 4:38 pm, "Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kirk...@comcast.net
wrote:
Hi,
In response to your question, it appears that Avise de Lancaster married
both William Peverel and Richard de Morville. I find the following in
"Domesday Descendants" on page 603 under "de Morville, Ricardus":
"Son of Hugh de Morville (q.v.) and Beatrice de Beauchamp. He succeeded his
father c.1162 as constable of Scotland, though he lost land held of the
honour of Huntingdon in 1173. He married Avice, daughter of William of
Lancaster and widow of William II Peverel of Nottingham (d.1154). He died
in 1189 leaving a son William (d.1196), and a daughter and eventual heiress
Helen, wife of Roland fitz Uctred of Galloway. Cf. Farrer ii, 357."
I hope this is helpful.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: AnnG [mailto:anngod...@googlemail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:51 PM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Avise de Lancaster
Apologies if this is a silly question. Various sources show an Avise
de Lancaster married to William Peverel in the 11th century. Is this
the same Avise de Lancaster who is shown by other reputable sources
(including the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) as married to
Richard de Morville.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thank you to everyone.
-
Carole
OT "old books"
I apologise for asking this off topic question, but I cannot think of a
group more interested in "old books"
I am a new resident of a retirement centre and have been elected to the
Library committee.
During my working life I was constantly moving and never had the opportunity
to "keep" books before, those I bought and read were handed to others..
I notice that some of the older books (most donated) are in need of
"cleaning" in
particular a "reddish-brown" spot/stain on some of the pages, and on the
page edge.
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what the stain is, what causes
it, can it be prevented and can I remove it with some harmless cleaner.
Thank you,
John Jones
Sydney, Aus.
group more interested in "old books"
I am a new resident of a retirement centre and have been elected to the
Library committee.
During my working life I was constantly moving and never had the opportunity
to "keep" books before, those I bought and read were handed to others..
I notice that some of the older books (most donated) are in need of
"cleaning" in
particular a "reddish-brown" spot/stain on some of the pages, and on the
page edge.
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what the stain is, what causes
it, can it be prevented and can I remove it with some harmless cleaner.
Thank you,
John Jones
Sydney, Aus.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: OT "old books"
"Carole" <laurel@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.452.1175822389.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
These red-brown spots are called "foxing", probably due to humidity
interracting with metallic traces in the paper.
It can be treated to improve the appearance, if not to eliminate the problem
completely, but this process is so expensive (and the gas used is toxic)
that it would not be practicable for most library books.
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.452.1175822389.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I apologise for asking this off topic question, but I cannot think of a
group more interested in "old books"
I am a new resident of a retirement centre and have been elected to the
Library committee.
During my working life I was constantly moving and never had the
opportunity
to "keep" books before, those I bought and read were handed to others..
I notice that some of the older books (most donated) are in need of
"cleaning" in
particular a "reddish-brown" spot/stain on some of the pages, and on the
page edge.
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what the stain is, what
causes
it, can it be prevented and can I remove it with some harmless cleaner.
These red-brown spots are called "foxing", probably due to humidity
interracting with metallic traces in the paper.
It can be treated to improve the appearance, if not to eliminate the problem
completely, but this process is so expensive (and the gas used is toxic)
that it would not be practicable for most library books.
Peter Stewart
-
JohnR
Re: OT "old books"
On Apr 6, 2:21 am, "Carole" <lau...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Peter is right, there is nothing practical that you can do to remove
foxing in books. The only cleaning you could consider is to hoover
(Vacuum) the top edges. Hold the book firmly and with a brush
attachment on the nozzle stroke the top edge one or twice from the
spine towards the foredge; this gets rid of the dust that can work its
way into the pages. Don't use a damp cloth on cloth-bound books. If
you have any leather volumes post here for more information.
Probably the best thing you can do to help books is to wash the
shelves; I do not know the current position regarding chemicals but we
used to use thymol in the rinse water, most bugs that munch books
don't like it.
Books hate damp but a high humidity ca 70% is good for the paper.
John
I apologise for asking this off topic question, but I cannot think of a
group more interested in "oldbooks"
I am a new resident of a retirement centre and have been elected to the
Library committee.
During my working life I was constantly moving and never had the opportunity
to "keep"booksbefore, those I bought and read were handed to others..
I notice that some of the olderbooks(most donated) are in need of
"cleaning" in
particular a "reddish-brown" spot/stain on some of the pages, and on the
page edge.
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what the stain is, what causes
it, can it be prevented and can I remove it with some harmless cleaner.
Thank you,
John Jones
Sydney, Aus.
Peter is right, there is nothing practical that you can do to remove
foxing in books. The only cleaning you could consider is to hoover
(Vacuum) the top edges. Hold the book firmly and with a brush
attachment on the nozzle stroke the top edge one or twice from the
spine towards the foredge; this gets rid of the dust that can work its
way into the pages. Don't use a damp cloth on cloth-bound books. If
you have any leather volumes post here for more information.
Probably the best thing you can do to help books is to wash the
shelves; I do not know the current position regarding chemicals but we
used to use thymol in the rinse water, most bugs that munch books
don't like it.
Books hate damp but a high humidity ca 70% is good for the paper.
John