Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

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wjhonson

Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av wjhonson » 03 apr 2007 18:45:31

Yesterday I had a chance to review the ancestry of L Frank Baum,
author of the Wizard of Oz books.

I began recording what is *stated* about his ancestry, and as usual
quickly ran into conflicts, one of these is pertinent perhaps to this
group.

I was searching for a royal ascent and found the following claim:

That Henry Cromwell of Hinchinbrook who d 7 jan 1603/4 and who m Joan
Warren and had 12 children. One of whom was Capt Thomas Cromwell who
d 9 Oct 1649 Boston and married an Anne having one daughter Elizabeth
who m Richard Price in 1595.

This claim *read in its entirety* is false.
While it's certainly *just barely* possible that there was a Thomas
son of Henry and Joan who may be that same Capt Thomas Cromwell who
died "soon after returning from a three-year privateering adventure"
and necessarily being in his 60s at least if that parentage is true;
it is *not* possible that his daughter Elizabeth married Richard Price
in 1595.

His daughter Elizabeth, provided he had only one of that name, was not
yet 21 years old *at* the time that Thomas Cromwell made his will in
1649. He specifically names her "at her marriage or twenty one" in
his 1649 will.

Does anyone have more documentation by which I can fill in the life of
either this Elizabeth or this Thomas (as opposed to *that* one who may
be someone completely different)?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 03 apr 2007 20:28:24

In message of 3 Apr, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

Yesterday I had a chance to review the ancestry of L Frank Baum,
author of the Wizard of Oz books.

I began recording what is *stated* about his ancestry, and as usual
quickly ran into conflicts, one of these is pertinent perhaps to this
group.

I was searching for a royal ascent and found the following claim:

That Henry Cromwell of Hinchinbrook who d 7 jan 1603/4 and who m Joan
Warren and had 12 children. One of whom was Capt Thomas Cromwell who
d 9 Oct 1649 Boston and married an Anne having one daughter Elizabeth
who m Richard Price in 1595.

This claim *read in its entirety* is false.
While it's certainly *just barely* possible that there was a Thomas
son of Henry and Joan who may be that same Capt Thomas Cromwell who
died "soon after returning from a three-year privateering adventure"
and necessarily being in his 60s at least if that parentage is true;
it is *not* possible that his daughter Elizabeth married Richard Price
in 1595.

His daughter Elizabeth, provided he had only one of that name, was not
yet 21 years old *at* the time that Thomas Cromwell made his will in
1649. He specifically names her "at her marriage or twenty one" in
his 1649 will.

Does anyone have more documentation by which I can fill in the life of
either this Elizabeth or this Thomas (as opposed to *that* one who may
be someone completely different)?

I happen to have Mark Noble's "Memorial of the Protectorate House of
Cromwell" and he gives the eleven children of Henry Cromwell and Joan
Warren as:

1. Oliver
2. Robert, father of the protector
3. Henry
4. Richard
5. Philip
6. Raphe
1. Joan, m. Barrington
2. Elizabeth, m. Hampden
3. Frances, m. Whalley
4. Mary, m. Dunch
5. Dorothy, m. Fleming

No Thomas, let alone any Capt Thomas.

Henry m. (2) ... Weeks but they had no issue and she was buried in All
Saints, Huntingdon on 11 July 1592.

However on p. 75 of vol I of this work, Noble lists:

"such persons of the name of Cromwell, or Williams, as I imagine are
descended from Morgan Williams, father of sir Rich. Williams, alias
Cromwell; but, from what particular branch it is impossible to know,
without still further helps than I have yet met with, great as they have
been; perhaps some curious gentleman, into whose hands a copy of this
work may fall, may discover the descent of at least some of them."

Then on p. 77 his list gets to:

"There was a captain Cromwell, a rich bucanier, who died at Boston,
about 1646: he was a very valiant officer, and was well known by his
bravery in the West-Indies, and in America."

Noble gives a footnote to this of 'Hist. of Massachusset's Bay". So
find a copy of that and doubtless all will be resolved.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

wjhonson

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av wjhonson » 04 apr 2007 01:12:16

On Apr 3, 12:28 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 3 Apr, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:





Yesterday I had a chance to review the ancestry of L Frank Baum,
author of the Wizard of Oz books.

I began recording what is *stated* about his ancestry, and as usual
quickly ran into conflicts, one of these is pertinent perhaps to this
group.

I was searching for a royal ascent and found the following claim:

That Henry Cromwell of Hinchinbrook who d 7 jan 1603/4 and who m Joan
Warren and had 12 children. One of whom was Capt Thomas Cromwell who
d 9 Oct 1649 Boston and married an Anne having one daughter Elizabeth
who m Richard Price in 1595.

This claim *read in its entirety* is false.
While it's certainly *just barely* possible that there was a Thomas
son of Henry and Joan who may be that same Capt Thomas Cromwell who
died "soon after returning from a three-year privateering adventure"
and necessarily being in his 60s at least if that parentage is true;
it is *not* possible that his daughter Elizabeth married Richard Price
in 1595.

His daughter Elizabeth, provided he had only one of that name, was not
yet 21 years old *at* the time that Thomas Cromwell made his will in
1649. He specifically names her "at her marriage or twenty one" in
his 1649 will.

Does anyone have more documentation by which I can fill in the life of
either this Elizabeth or this Thomas (as opposed to *that* one who may
be someone completely different)?

I happen to have Mark Noble's "Memorial of the Protectorate House of
Cromwell" and he gives the eleven children of Henry Cromwell and Joan
Warren as:
snip
1. Joan, m. Barrington
2. Elizabeth, m. Hampden
3. Frances, m. Whalley
4. Mary, m. Dunch
5. Dorothy, m. Fleming



Joan Cromwell d 1641 m Frances Barrington, 1st Bart of Barrington
Hall. He is of royal descent at least six ways, through his mother
Winifred Pole dau of Henry Pole Lord Montagu beheaded in 1538/9

Elizabeth Cromwell d 1664/5 at Great Hampden, Bucks married William
Hampden of Great Hampden d 2 Apr 1597, left a will. Their son John
Hampden d 24 Jun 1643 of wounds received at Chalgrove Field after
having at least nine children all by his first wife but in 1640
married secondly Lettice Knollys whose name sounds promising but who I
haven't traced.

Frances Cromwell married Richard Whalley who great-great-grandparents
were Sir John Digby of Eye Kettleby and Catherine Griffin making him a
descendent of Piers Gaveston

Mary Cromwell d 1617 married Sir William Dunch of Little Wittenham d
1611/2 and their great-great-grandson was Cecil Bishopp, 6th Bart of
Parham d 1778, yes as the name insinuates a descendent of Richard
Cecil

I don't know a Dorothy (Cromwell) Fleming so I guess I have more work
to do!

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av wjhonson » 04 apr 2007 01:16:33

As far as the work cited and the footnote, it doesn't clear up who
this Thomas Cromwell's parents are, which I understand to at least the
year 2000 was still an open question.

cf http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... ::611.html
This thread destroys the idea that this Thomas is the same as an
aledged Thomas son of Henry and Joan.

also cf http://www.newenglandancestors.org/educ ... _90246.asp
which states "Cromwell was reportedly born in London, England. in
1617. Winthrop states that "he was ripped out of his mother's belly,
and never sucked, nor saw father nor mother, nor they him." He first
came to colonial America as a seaman while still in his teens. He
participated in at least one voyage to the West Indies in the 1630s.
Circumstantial evidence suggests that he was married to Anne ____ by
1639 or 1640."

which is helpful in at least giving him a cited birthyear

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 04 apr 2007 01:23:43

In message of 4 Apr, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 12:28 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 3 Apr, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:


Does anyone have more documentation by which I can fill in the life of
either this Elizabeth or this Thomas (as opposed to *that* one who may
be someone completely different)?

I happen to have Mark Noble's "Memorial of the Protectorate House of
Cromwell" and he gives the eleven children of Henry Cromwell and Joan
Warren as:
snip
1. Joan, m. Barrington
2. Elizabeth, m. Hampden
3. Frances, m. Whalley
4. Mary, m. Dunch
5. Dorothy, m. Fleming



Joan Cromwell d 1641 m Frances Barrington, 1st Bart of Barrington
Hall. He is of royal descent at least six ways, through his mother
Winifred Pole dau of Henry Pole Lord Montagu beheaded in 1538/9

Well I can find 66 lines of descent from the now fashionable Geoffrey
'Plantagenet', Count of Anjou.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

wjhonson

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av wjhonson » 04 apr 2007 01:47:40

I don't have a program that tells me. What I should have said is that
six of his 16 great-grandparents each have their own unique royal
descent. But all six of those are through his mother's side.

Will

John Higgins

Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston

Legg inn av John Higgins » 04 apr 2007 05:09:58

Tim probably doesn't really need any more Plantagenet descents for his
ancestor Sir Francis Barrington, 1st Baronet, but FWIW I count 174 descents
from "the now fashionable Geofrrey" for Sir Francis, all of them of course
through his mother Winifred Pole.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Capt Thomas Cromwell d 1649 Boston


In message of 4 Apr, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

[snip]

Joan Cromwell d 1641 m Frances Barrington, 1st Bart of Barrington
Hall. He is of royal descent at least six ways, through his mother
Winifred Pole dau of Henry Pole Lord Montagu beheaded in 1538/9

Well I can find 66 lines of descent from the now fashionable Geoffrey
'Plantagenet', Count of Anjou.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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