What is trhe exact meaning?

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Leo van de Pas

What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 31 mar 2007 23:44:15

When a title is created it is established who can inherit. What is meant by "and his heirs male and of entail"?

Heirs male is easy, if the 1st Lord/Earl has no children, then his father's father's brother's male line descendant can inherit the title.
But "and of entail" what is meant by that?

I am looking at a family where the lineage of Earls became extinct, but the first Earls' grandfather (1st Baron) had two younger sons and about seven generations later one claimes the title, even though the Earls title was forfeited for high treason as well. I think it is a case of wishful thinking, but then I could be wrong.

Hope someone can explain.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 apr 2007 00:16:28

In message of 31 Mar, "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

When a title is created it is established who can inherit.

Only if it is created by letters patent. If it is created by summons
then the feudal rules of inheritance apply.

What is meant by "and his heirs male and of entail"?

Heirs male is easy, if the 1st Lord/Earl has no children, then his father's father's brother's male line descendant can inherit the title.
But "and of entail" what is meant by that?

I am looking at a family where the lineage of Earls became extinct, but the first Earls' grandfather (1st Baron) had two younger sons and about seven generations later one claimes the title, even though the Earls title was forfeited for high treason as well.

I think the treasoner has to be attainted as well to disinherit his
heirs.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 01 apr 2007 00:25:02

If there is an attainder, it would have to be lifted before any heir
whatever could to inherit.

An entail or tailzie is when the holder ordains a descent for the
lands or title, which varies from the norm of, usually feudal, descent.

Gjest

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 apr 2007 23:47:19

On Apr 1, 12:25 am, "Alex Maxwell Findlater"
<maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
If there is an attainder, it would have to be lifted before any heir
whatever could to inherit.

Not necessarily; it depends on the remainder.

The Dukedom of Somerset was forfeited in 1552 and restored in 1660.
But the 8th Duke, who inherited in 1750, would have done so even
without the restoration, because of the unusual remainder in the
original grant (to the heirs male from the second marriage, and after
them, to Edward, the eldest surviving son, and his heirs male).

Another example is Viscount Bolingbroke, when, in 1751, the 2nd
Viscount succeeded his attainted uncle.

Also, the 6th & 1st Earl of Northumberland, attainted in 1572, was
succeeded as 2nd Earl by his brother, by virtue of a special remainder
in the new creation.

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed. (volume 2, page 208) quotes "Cruise, p.
122": "When a person is a tenant in tail male of a dignity, with a
remainder over in tail male to another, and such a person is attainted
for high treason, the dignity is forfeited as to him and his issue
male; ... but upon failure ... becomes vested in the remainder man or his
male descendant".

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 02 apr 2007 07:42:05

That may be true in England, but I don't think it's how it worked in
Scotland.

There the title was effectively "destroyed", the arms were defaced
both at the cross in the Edinburgh Cannongate and in the register and
therefore no longer existed (see rubric in the Armorial of Sir David
Lyndsay of the Mount) and the lands were granted away to others.
(Often when the attainder was lifted not all the lands could be
recovered, and in any case it cost a great deal to recover them.)

Even in England, I suspect that some form of authority from the crown
would be necessary for the remainderman to take up the inheritance, ie
title and lands.

Gjest

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 apr 2007 08:11:47

On 2 Apr., 07:42, "Alex Maxwell Findlater"
<maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That may be true in England, but I don't think it's how it worked in
Scotland.

There the title was effectively "destroyed", the arms were defaced
both at the cross in the Edinburgh Cannongate and in the register and
therefore no longer existed (see rubric in the Armorial of Sir David
Lyndsay of the Mount) and the lands were granted away to others.
(Often when the attainder was lifted not all the lands could be
recovered, and in any case it cost a great deal to recover them.)

Even in England, I suspect that some form of authority from the crown
would be necessary for the remainderman to take up the inheritance, ie
title and lands.

I seem to recall that the Barony of Sinclair case expounded the law in
this respect - I will dig out CP.

Tas

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Tas » 04 apr 2007 00:55:27

On Apr 1, 8:44 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
When a title is created it is established who can inherit. What is meant by "and his heirs male and of entail"?

Heirs male is easy, if the 1st Lord/Earl has no children, then his father's father's brother's male line descendant can inherit the title.
But "and of entail" what is meant by that?

I am looking at a family where the lineage of Earls became extinct, but the first Earls' grandfather (1st Baron) had two younger sons and about seven generations later one claimes the title, even though the Earls title was forfeited for high treason as well. I think it is a case of wishful thinking, but then I could be wrong.

Hope someone can explain.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Leo
My recollection is that what we call an entail is the generic
description. The actual instrument of creation would be a gift (in
Latin presumably) "to X and to the heirs male of his body ..". This
would be a tail male. I think tails female were possible but never
created. We now call this process entailing.
The fact that the entail derives from the heirs of the body of the
original grantee explains why a title couldn't be inherited through
the brother or uncle of the original grantee.
I hope this helps
Tas

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: What is trhe exact meaning?

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 04 apr 2007 07:22:55

On Apr 4, 12:55 am, "Tas" <tas....@iinet.net.au> wrote:
On Apr 1, 8:44 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

When a title is created it is established who can inherit. What is meant by "and his heirs male and of entail"?

Heirs male is easy, if the 1st Lord/Earl has no children, then his father's father's brother's male line descendant can inherit the title.
But "and of entail" what is meant by that?

I am looking at a family where the lineage of Earls became extinct, but the first Earls' grandfather (1st Baron) had two younger sons and about seven generations later one claimes the title, even though the Earls title was forfeited for high treason as well. I think it is a case of wishful thinking, but then I could be wrong.

Hope someone can explain.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Leo
My recollection is that what we call an entail is the generic
description. The actual instrument of creation would be a gift (in
Latin presumably) "to X and to the heirs male of his body ..". This
would be a tail male. I think tails female were possible but never
created. We now call this process entailing.
The fact that the entail derives from the heirs of the body of the
original grantee explains why a title couldn't be inherited through
the brother or uncle of the original grantee.
I hope this helps
Tas

Of course that statement does not reflect feudal practice outwith
England. Certainly in Scotland an entail to heirs male would mean
literally that and peerages were claimed on that basis, ie "heirs
male" is distinct from "heirs male of the body". "Heirs male of the
body" is the English rule and is casually called "heirs male", but in
Scotland if you want to exclude collateral heirs male, you have to
specify "heirs male of the body".

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