FitzRichards

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Wanda Thacker

FitzRichards

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 28 mar 2007 07:21:02

I have been looking for sources on the various FitzRichards, De Vernon
and De Clare, over the last few days. I found a website for the
Foundation for Medieval Genealogy and they had a lot of information on
the 2 separate families.

I discovered that it really doesn't
matter if the De Vernon line can be traced all the way back to the
Norman Dukes. Because on the female side, it DOES go back to that line.

Another good resource for reference is GOOGLE Books.

Between the two, I have sorta straightened out the mess in my head.



1. Hughes De Vernon

2. Guillaume De Vernon-----------------Emma FitzOsbern (this line has ties to the Dukes)

3. Richard De Redvers De Vernon--------Adelise De Peverel

4. Baldwin De Vernon-------------------------Lucy De Clare

If you go backwards from Lucy De Clare you end up there anyway.

7. Lucy De Clare-------Baldwin De Vernon

6. Richard FitzGilbert De Clare---Agnes

5. Gilbert FitzRichard De Clare-----Adeliza De Clermont

4. Richard De Brionne ---------Rohese Gifford

3. Gilbert De Brionne

2. Geoffrey De Brionne

1. RICHARD I DUKE OF NORMANDY

I'm
open to civil disagreements, since I asked for help in the first
place. But I have been looking for sources instead of just copying
genealogies off of Ancestry.com

The bad thing is that I have a file of over 7500 people of Noble or Royal lineage to verify, now.
I suspect that one of my Grandchildren will have to finish the job. LOL

Wanda Thacker




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Peter Stewart

Re: FitzRichards

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 28 mar 2007 07:35:06

On Mar 28, 3:14 pm, Wanda Thacker <wanda_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been looking for sources on the various FitzRichards, De Vernon
and De Clare, over the last few days. I found a website for the
Foundation for Medieval Genealogy and they had a lot of information on
the 2 separate families.

I discovered that it really doesn't
matter if the De Vernon line can be traced all the way back to the
Norman Dukes. Because on the female side, it DOES go back to that line.

Another good resource for reference is GOOGLE Books.

Between the two, I have sorta straightened out the mess in my head.

1. Hughes De Vernon

2. Guillaume De Vernon-----------------Emma FitzOsbern (this line has ties to the Dukes)

3. Richard De Redvers De Vernon--------Adelise De Peverel

4. Baldwin De Vernon-------------------------Lucy De Clare

If you go backwards from Lucy De Clare you end up there anyway.

7. Lucy De Clare-------Baldwin De Vernon

6. Richard FitzGilbert De Clare---Agnes

This parentage for Lucy is conjectural, however attractive & plausible
the connection seems, so that the statement "on the female side, it
DOES go back to that line" cannot be so definite.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: FitzRichards

Legg inn av taf » 28 mar 2007 18:34:29

On Mar 27, 10:14 pm, Wanda Thacker <wanda_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Between the two, I have sorta straightened out the mess in my head.

1. Hughes De Vernon

2. Guillaume De Vernon-----------------Emma FitzOsbern (this line has ties to the Dukes)

3. Richard De Redvers De Vernon--------Adelise De Peverel


The early generations of these Vernons are often confused and always
confusing. This reconstruction derives from the following string of
argument:

Richard was called 'nepos' of William Fitz Osbern.

The term 'nepos' could mean nephew.

Richard had a brother Hugh.

There was (thought to be) a Hugh whose father was William.

There was a William who married Emma.

Thus Richard was brother of Hugh, son of William and Emma, sister of
William fitz Osbern, and hence Emma filia Osbern.

William de Vernon was son of Hugh.


There was several problems, however. For starters, that Hugh was
father of William, and that he was son of William, are alternative
interpretations of the same document yet this reconstruction combines
both. There are further problems. Nepos could also mean grandson
(known not to be the case) or simply a generic younger male kinsman.
Given that it is known that William Fitz Osbern was grandnephew of
Gunnora, Duchess of Normandy, and two de Redvers brothers are
specifically named as (generic) nephews of Gunnora, there need not
have been a more immediate relationship between the two. Further, (as
I alluded to above) the William who married Emma was son of a Hugh
(distinct from Richard's brother of the same name), not father of
Hugh. Thus there is no reason to make Richard the son of William and
Emma, and no reason to make Emma sister if William Fitz Osbern.

It has been hypothesized that Richard was son of a Baldwin, nepos of
William Fitz Osbern, but even that is an educated guess.

taf

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