I am trying to establish the wife or wives of Sir Thomas Bryan
(adult by 1447, d. 1500), Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas from 1471 to his death (the longest tenure of that office).
He is an ancestor of Mary Launce, settler in New England.
According to DNB and ODNB, his wife was named isabel,
though there is some indication that there may have been an
earlier wife who was the mother of his children.
According to Wedgwood's History of parliament p. 85, citing
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Thomas Blount, younger brother of
the 1st Lord Mountjoy, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Isabel
______, who remarried Chief Justice Bryan. This Thomas
Blount died in 1467.
Burke's Commoners 3:167 says that this Thomas Blount, whom
it calls Sir Thomas, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Catherine,
daughter of Sir Gervase Clifton. (Stirnet calls her Margaret
Clifton.)
Recently Will Johnson posted records of 1474 that refer to
Isabella, wife of Thomas Bryan the chief Justice and widow
of William Bowes, of Streatlam, Co. Durham. According to
Burke's Commoners 1:182, this William Bowes died without
issue in 1474, and his wife (unnamed) was a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham.
The Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 and 1564, made by
William Flower and published in 1881, at page 31 says that
William Bowes married _____ Clifton.
The Obituary Roll of William Webchester and John Burnby,
Priors of Durham (1850), at page 112, shows that William
Bowes and his wife Isabella were admitted to the fraternity
of the Priory in 1468. A note (unsourced) to this entry says
that Isabella was daughter of _____ Clifton and a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham, and that she remar-
ried Sir Thomas Bryan, Chief Justice. If this is accurate,
Isabella was a daughter of Sir Robert Clifton (d. 1478), of
Clifton and Hodsock, Co. Notts, and his wife Alice Booth
(d. 1470), daughter of John Booth, of Barton, Lancashire.
On this account Isabella would have been a sister or aunt
of Catherine (or Margaret) Clifton, who is said to have
married Thomas Blount.
Any input or thoughts? Were Wedgwood and DNB/ODNB
wrong that Bryan's wife was Blount's widow? Or did Isa-
bella marry three times? In any event, since Isabella was
still married to William Bowes in 1468, it seems likely
that the Chief Justice's children were by an earlier,
completely unknown, marriage.
Bryan-Clifton-Blount
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Bryan-Clifton-Blount
On Mar 27, 10:49 pm, "Clagett, Brice" <bclag...@cov.com> wrote:
Sir Thomas appears to have had a connection with the Cliftons long pre-
dating his marriage to William Bowes's widow:
Debtor: Gervase Clifton, knight [Brabourne in Wye Hundred, of Kent]
Thomas Fitz, and William Brook, citizens and skinners [merchants] of
London.
Creditor: Thomas Bryan, gentleman [of London].
Amount: £25
Before whom: Geoffrey Fielding, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 27/03/1460
(PROCAT C 241/244/13)
The Thomas Clifton, Esquire, referred to in the item below, is the son
and heir of Sir Thomas (himself afterwards also a knight), and the
dates are also strongly indicative of a birth date before the marriage
of Sir Thomas and William Bowes' widow (which is certainly later than
1467 and - if Burke's is correct - 1474):
Thomas Bryan, esquire, and Margaret, his wife, previously the wife of
John Sandes, esquire. v. William Sandes, knight, father of the said
John.: Jointure of the said Margaret, who is daughter of Elizabeth,
wife of Thomas [Howard], earl of Surrey. [1486-1493] (PROCAT C
1/84/74)
(i.e. Margaret nee Bourchier, wife firstly of John, eldest son of Sir
William Sandys).
Do you know whether Sir Thomas's will of 1500 (PCC 11.12.1500, Prob
11/12) mentions anything of his wives, or whether that of his son (PCC
1518) says anything about his mother?
MA-R
I am trying to establish the wife or wives of Sir Thomas Bryan
(adult by 1447, d. 1500), Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas from 1471 to his death (the longest tenure of that office).
He is an ancestor of Mary Launce, settler in New England.
According to DNB and ODNB, his wife was named isabel,
though there is some indication that there may have been an
earlier wife who was the mother of his children.
According to Wedgwood's History of parliament p. 85, citing
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Thomas Blount, younger brother of
the 1st Lord Mountjoy, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Isabel
______, who remarried Chief Justice Bryan. This Thomas
Blount died in 1467.
Burke's Commoners 3:167 says that this Thomas Blount, whom
it calls Sir Thomas, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Catherine,
daughter of Sir Gervase Clifton. (Stirnet calls her Margaret
Clifton.)
Recently Will Johnson posted records of 1474 that refer to
Isabella, wife of Thomas Bryan the chief Justice and widow
of William Bowes, of Streatlam, Co. Durham. According to
Burke's Commoners 1:182, this William Bowes died without
issue in 1474, and his wife (unnamed) was a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham.
The Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 and 1564, made by
William Flower and published in 1881, at page 31 says that
William Bowes married _____ Clifton.
The Obituary Roll of William Webchester and John Burnby,
Priors of Durham (1850), at page 112, shows that William
Bowes and his wife Isabella were admitted to the fraternity
of the Priory in 1468. A note (unsourced) to this entry says
that Isabella was daughter of _____ Clifton and a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham, and that she remar-
ried Sir Thomas Bryan, Chief Justice. If this is accurate,
Isabella was a daughter of Sir Robert Clifton (d. 1478), of
Clifton and Hodsock, Co. Notts, and his wife Alice Booth
(d. 1470), daughter of John Booth, of Barton, Lancashire.
On this account Isabella would have been a sister or aunt
of Catherine (or Margaret) Clifton, who is said to have
married Thomas Blount.
Any input or thoughts? Were Wedgwood and DNB/ODNB
wrong that Bryan's wife was Blount's widow? Or did Isa-
bella marry three times? In any event, since Isabella was
still married to William Bowes in 1468, it seems likely
that the Chief Justice's children were by an earlier,
completely unknown, marriage.
Sir Thomas appears to have had a connection with the Cliftons long pre-
dating his marriage to William Bowes's widow:
Debtor: Gervase Clifton, knight [Brabourne in Wye Hundred, of Kent]
Thomas Fitz, and William Brook, citizens and skinners [merchants] of
London.
Creditor: Thomas Bryan, gentleman [of London].
Amount: £25
Before whom: Geoffrey Fielding, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 27/03/1460
(PROCAT C 241/244/13)
The Thomas Clifton, Esquire, referred to in the item below, is the son
and heir of Sir Thomas (himself afterwards also a knight), and the
dates are also strongly indicative of a birth date before the marriage
of Sir Thomas and William Bowes' widow (which is certainly later than
1467 and - if Burke's is correct - 1474):
Thomas Bryan, esquire, and Margaret, his wife, previously the wife of
John Sandes, esquire. v. William Sandes, knight, father of the said
John.: Jointure of the said Margaret, who is daughter of Elizabeth,
wife of Thomas [Howard], earl of Surrey. [1486-1493] (PROCAT C
1/84/74)
(i.e. Margaret nee Bourchier, wife firstly of John, eldest son of Sir
William Sandys).
Do you know whether Sir Thomas's will of 1500 (PCC 11.12.1500, Prob
11/12) mentions anything of his wives, or whether that of his son (PCC
1518) says anything about his mother?
MA-R
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Bryan-Clifton-Blount
In message of 28 Mar, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
<snip>
The version of his will in Testamenta Vetusta, vol II, p. 449, is fairly
complete and says nothing about any wife.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On Mar 27, 10:49 pm, "Clagett, Brice" <bclag...@cov.com> wrote:
I am trying to establish the wife or wives of Sir Thomas Bryan
(adult by 1447, d. 1500), Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas from 1471 to his death (the longest tenure of that office).
He is an ancestor of Mary Launce, settler in New England.
<snip>
Do you know whether Sir Thomas's will of 1500 (PCC 11.12.1500, Prob
11/12) mentions anything of his wives, or whether that of his son (PCC
1518) says anything about his mother?
The version of his will in Testamenta Vetusta, vol II, p. 449, is fairly
complete and says nothing about any wife.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: Bryan-Clifton-Blount
On 27 Mrz., 22:49, "Clagett, Brice" <bclag...@cov.com> wrote:
Perhaps the answer is that Sir Thomas Bryan had two wives named
Isabel, the second of whom was the widow of William Bowes nee Clifton?
According to ODNB: "Bryan married Isabel (d. 1467), widow of Thomas
Blount, treasurer of Calais, whose jointure lands lay in
Lincolnshire." - i.e. it was Bryan's wife Isabel who died in 1467.
Could "Thomas Blount, treasurer of Calais" have been, rather than the
brother of the 1st Lord Mountjoy, but their father, Sir Thomas Blount
(d 1456), treasurer of Normandy, whose second wife was
"Elizabeth" (i.e. Isabel)?
MA-R
I am trying to establish the wife or wives of Sir Thomas Bryan
(adult by 1447, d. 1500), Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas from 1471 to his death (the longest tenure of that office).
He is an ancestor of Mary Launce, settler in New England.
According to DNB and ODNB, his wife was named isabel,
though there is some indication that there may have been an
earlier wife who was the mother of his children.
According to Wedgwood's History of parliament p. 85, citing
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Thomas Blount, younger brother of
the 1st Lord Mountjoy, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Isabel
______, who remarried Chief Justice Bryan. This Thomas
Blount died in 1467.
Burke's Commoners 3:167 says that this Thomas Blount, whom
it calls Sir Thomas, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Catherine,
daughter of Sir Gervase Clifton. (Stirnet calls her Margaret
Clifton.)
Recently Will Johnson posted records of 1474 that refer to
Isabella, wife of Thomas Bryan the chief Justice and widow
of William Bowes, of Streatlam, Co. Durham. According to
Burke's Commoners 1:182, this William Bowes died without
issue in 1474, and his wife (unnamed) was a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham.
The Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 and 1564, made by
William Flower and published in 1881, at page 31 says that
William Bowes married _____ Clifton.
The Obituary Roll of William Webchester and John Burnby,
Priors of Durham (1850), at page 112, shows that William
Bowes and his wife Isabella were admitted to the fraternity
of the Priory in 1468. A note (unsourced) to this entry says
that Isabella was daughter of _____ Clifton and a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham, and that she remar-
ried Sir Thomas Bryan, Chief Justice. If this is accurate,
Isabella was a daughter of Sir Robert Clifton (d. 1478), of
Clifton and Hodsock, Co. Notts, and his wife Alice Booth
(d. 1470), daughter of John Booth, of Barton, Lancashire.
On this account Isabella would have been a sister or aunt
of Catherine (or Margaret) Clifton, who is said to have
married Thomas Blount.
Any input or thoughts? Were Wedgwood and DNB/ODNB
wrong that Bryan's wife was Blount's widow? Or did Isa-
bella marry three times? In any event, since Isabella was
still married to William Bowes in 1468, it seems likely
that the Chief Justice's children were by an earlier,
completely unknown, marriage.
Perhaps the answer is that Sir Thomas Bryan had two wives named
Isabel, the second of whom was the widow of William Bowes nee Clifton?
According to ODNB: "Bryan married Isabel (d. 1467), widow of Thomas
Blount, treasurer of Calais, whose jointure lands lay in
Lincolnshire." - i.e. it was Bryan's wife Isabel who died in 1467.
Could "Thomas Blount, treasurer of Calais" have been, rather than the
brother of the 1st Lord Mountjoy, but their father, Sir Thomas Blount
(d 1456), treasurer of Normandy, whose second wife was
"Elizabeth" (i.e. Isabel)?
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Bryan-Clifton-Blount
On 28 Mrz., 19:37, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Roskell et al in History of Parliament, 1386-1421 in their entry for
Sir Thomas Blount (c1383-1456) states that his second wife and widow,
Elizabeth, died circa 1466, although it does not refer to any
subsequent marriage or connection with Thomas Bryan. She is stated to
have been the widow of Sir John Wilcotes (d c1429), and a further
statement in the Berks, Bucks & Oxon Arch. J. ns iii, 100-1 that she
was daughter of John Danvers (ff 1440) by his second marriage, to Joan
Bruley, is rejected on grounds on chronology; she and Thomas Blount
married by January 1436, probably in 1435. Again on chronological
grounds, if she was first married before 1430, she can hardly have
been young enough to be the mother of Sir Thomas Bryan's children.
MA-R
On 27 Mrz., 22:49, "Clagett, Brice" <bclag...@cov.com> wrote:
I am trying to establish the wife or wives of Sir Thomas Bryan
(adult by 1447, d. 1500), Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas from 1471 to his death (the longest tenure of that office).
He is an ancestor of Mary Launce, settler in New England.
According to DNB and ODNB, his wife was named isabel,
though there is some indication that there may have been an
earlier wife who was the mother of his children.
According to Wedgwood's History of parliament p. 85, citing
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Thomas Blount, younger brother of
the 1st Lord Mountjoy, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Isabel
______, who remarried Chief Justice Bryan. This Thomas
Blount died in 1467.
Burke's Commoners 3:167 says that this Thomas Blount, whom
it calls Sir Thomas, married (1) Agnes Hawley, (2) Catherine,
daughter of Sir Gervase Clifton. (Stirnet calls her Margaret
Clifton.)
Recently Will Johnson posted records of 1474 that refer to
Isabella, wife of Thomas Bryan the chief Justice and widow
of William Bowes, of Streatlam, Co. Durham. According to
Burke's Commoners 1:182, this William Bowes died without
issue in 1474, and his wife (unnamed) was a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham.
The Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 and 1564, made by
William Flower and published in 1881, at page 31 says that
William Bowes married _____ Clifton.
The Obituary Roll of William Webchester and John Burnby,
Priors of Durham (1850), at page 112, shows that William
Bowes and his wife Isabella were admitted to the fraternity
of the Priory in 1468. A note (unsourced) to this entry says
that Isabella was daughter of _____ Clifton and a niece of
Lawrence Booth, Bishop of Durham, and that she remar-
ried Sir Thomas Bryan, Chief Justice. If this is accurate,
Isabella was a daughter of Sir Robert Clifton (d. 1478), of
Clifton and Hodsock, Co. Notts, and his wife Alice Booth
(d. 1470), daughter of John Booth, of Barton, Lancashire.
On this account Isabella would have been a sister or aunt
of Catherine (or Margaret) Clifton, who is said to have
married Thomas Blount.
Any input or thoughts? Were Wedgwood and DNB/ODNB
wrong that Bryan's wife was Blount's widow? Or did Isa-
bella marry three times? In any event, since Isabella was
still married to William Bowes in 1468, it seems likely
that the Chief Justice's children were by an earlier,
completely unknown, marriage.
Perhaps the answer is that Sir Thomas Bryan had two wives named
Isabel, the second of whom was the widow of William Bowes nee Clifton?
According to ODNB: "Bryan married Isabel (d. 1467), widow of Thomas
Blount, treasurer of Calais, whose jointure lands lay in
Lincolnshire." - i.e. it was Bryan's wife Isabel who died in 1467.
Could "Thomas Blount, treasurer of Calais" have been, rather than the
brother of the 1st Lord Mountjoy, but their father, Sir Thomas Blount
(d 1456), treasurer of Normandy, whose second wife was
"Elizabeth" (i.e. Isabel)?
Roskell et al in History of Parliament, 1386-1421 in their entry for
Sir Thomas Blount (c1383-1456) states that his second wife and widow,
Elizabeth, died circa 1466, although it does not refer to any
subsequent marriage or connection with Thomas Bryan. She is stated to
have been the widow of Sir John Wilcotes (d c1429), and a further
statement in the Berks, Bucks & Oxon Arch. J. ns iii, 100-1 that she
was daughter of John Danvers (ff 1440) by his second marriage, to Joan
Bruley, is rejected on grounds on chronology; she and Thomas Blount
married by January 1436, probably in 1435. Again on chronological
grounds, if she was first married before 1430, she can hardly have
been young enough to be the mother of Sir Thomas Bryan's children.
MA-R
-
wjhonson
Re: Bryan-Clifton-Blount
I don't have the list of the children of Sir Thomas Bryan, Chief
Justice of the Court of Common Pleas (d 1500) but only one child Sir
Thomas Bryan, Knt (in 1497) of Cheddington died 1517
This son married Margaret Bourchier (b 1468 d 1551/2) and I have only
two children although there may be more, born sometime between 1482
and 1517
If Elizabeth/Isabel the second wife of Sir Thomas Blount had married
him as a girl of say 16 (in 1435) then his death in 1456 would leave
her a still fertile 36 years old and able potentially to have children
for another 10 years or so.
So it's still possible that this is what occurred and that she is the
mother of Thomas the son.
Will Johnson
Justice of the Court of Common Pleas (d 1500) but only one child Sir
Thomas Bryan, Knt (in 1497) of Cheddington died 1517
This son married Margaret Bourchier (b 1468 d 1551/2) and I have only
two children although there may be more, born sometime between 1482
and 1517
If Elizabeth/Isabel the second wife of Sir Thomas Blount had married
him as a girl of say 16 (in 1435) then his death in 1456 would leave
her a still fertile 36 years old and able potentially to have children
for another 10 years or so.
So it's still possible that this is what occurred and that she is the
mother of Thomas the son.
Will Johnson