Can anybody confirm that Robert fitz Harding had a sister called Cecilie?
She appears in a charter to St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol by William, Earl of Gloucester. The charter confirms grants of tenements in Bristol, including an orchard by "Cecilie sororis Roberti filii Hardingi". source "The Cartulary of St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol" edited by Canon David Walker, Bris & Gloucs Arch Soc. 1998. The charter is thought by Walker to be from between 1171 and 1183.
She also appears in Smythe's Lives of the Berkeleys (page 17) where he says she died on the 25th November but knows not what year. A.S Ellis also includes her in his pedigree in the same book. I believe there is also a reference by Keats-Rohan that she was a nun at Shaftesbury but I have not seen this firsthand.
However, I have looked at several websites that have been recommended to me as good sources for the Berkeleys and she is noticeable by her absence - even when her five brothers and both her sisters have been included. Does this indicate some doubt over her provenance?
Regards
Tony
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Cecilie, sister of Robert fitz Harding
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Cecilie, sister of Robert fitz Harding
In message of 26 Mar, Tony Dyer <tonyddyer@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
K-R in 'Domesday People' on Harding filius Alnod, p. 244 says of
Harding:
"Father of Nicholas, Robert, a daughter Cecilia (Earldom Glocs. Chh.,
28), a daughter who was a nun of Shaftesbury, and probably a son
Baldwin ..."
So Cecilia was not the nun.
None here and I am suprised that I omitted her from my database as I was
trying to include all people related to the Berkeleys and who were
listed in Smyth's volumes. So thanks for the KITA and she is now added
and will be in the web database when it is next updated.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Can anybody confirm that Robert fitz Harding had a sister called Cecilie?
She appears in a charter to St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol by
William, Earl of Gloucester. The charter confirms grants of
tenements in Bristol, including an orchard by "Cecilie sororis
Roberti filii Hardingi". source "The Cartulary of St Augustine's
Abbey, Bristol" edited by Canon David Walker, Bris & Gloucs Arch
Soc. 1998. The charter is thought by Walker to be from between 1171
and 1183.
She also appears in Smythe's Lives of the Berkeleys (page 17) where
he says she died on the 25th November but knows not what year. A.S
Ellis also includes her in his pedigree in the same book. I believe
there is also a reference by Keats-Rohan that she was a nun at
Shaftesbury but I have not seen this firsthand.
K-R in 'Domesday People' on Harding filius Alnod, p. 244 says of
Harding:
"Father of Nicholas, Robert, a daughter Cecilia (Earldom Glocs. Chh.,
28), a daughter who was a nun of Shaftesbury, and probably a son
Baldwin ..."
So Cecilia was not the nun.
However, I have looked at several websites that have been
recommended to me as good sources for the Berkeleys and she is
noticeable by her absence - even when her five brothers and both her
sisters have been included. Does this indicate some doubt over her
provenance?
None here and I am suprised that I omitted her from my database as I was
trying to include all people related to the Berkeleys and who were
listed in Smyth's volumes. So thanks for the KITA and she is now added
and will be in the web database when it is next updated.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Rosie Bevan
Re: Cecilie, sister of Robert fitz Harding
There was another Cecily (unlikely to be the same for chronological
reasons), related to the Fitz Hardings, and she was wife of Richard
Gaunsell, of Earthcott and La Lea in Gloucestershire. Other lands they
held were the unidentified vills of 'Haueden' and 'Hogeston' which
were the maritagium of Cecily's mother-in-law, Alice, on her marriage
with William Gaunsell. Richard and Cecily's heirs were their two
daughters, and around 1224-29 the inheritance was partitioned between
them. Idonia was to have the chief messuage in Earthcott, while Alice
had that of La Lea - after the death of Cecily who was then holding as
dower. Their mother appears amongst the list of witnesses to the
agreement ("Cecilia matre predictarum dominarum"). Idonia's share of
lands in La Lea was tenanted by Maurice de Gaunt and held in dower by
his widow, Margaret Marshall in 1233.
Idonia was a patron of St Augustine's abbey, Bristol, (founded by
Robert fitz Harding) and she and her husband, Richard the Huntsman
(Ricardus Venator/ Richard le Venur) gave land in Almondsbury in
return for burial in the abbey.
Idonia was also a patron of St Mark's Hospital, Bristol, which was
founded by Maurice de Gaunt, grandson of Robert fitz Harding. Maurice
had a younger brother named Henry, the first master of St Mark's
hospital, whom Idonia calls her kinsman. Additional evidence of fitz
Harding kinship occurred in 1233 when the rector of the hospital of
the Blessed Mary Magdalen of Bristol (founded by Eve, wife of Robert
fitz Harding) quitclaimed right in the lands which Idonia's ancestors
had given them, to be given to St Mark's. Unfortunately these lands
are not mentioned by name. The principal witnesses of the charter were
Lord Thomas de Berkeley and Lord Robert de Gournay - fitz Harding
descendants who attended by virtue of being heirs of the founders of
the two houses.
While it is difficult to pinpoint her place in the family, the
descendants of Cecily can be easily traced through the charters of St
Mark's in C. D. Ross (ed.). Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol.
(Bristol Record Society, 1959).
1. Cecily fl 1224-1229
+ Richard Gaunsell of Earthcott, son of Wiiliam Gaunsell and Alice
2. Idonia Gaunsell, Henry de Gaunt her kinsman
+ Richard the Huntsman d. c. 1234
3. Robert Gaunsell
4. Richard Gaunsell
4.Peter Gaunsell
2. Alice
+Simon Bochan/Boghan/Bowhan of La Lea
3.Isabella
+ Stephen de Eastbach
+ Simon de Dene
3.Alditha
+ Robert de Malefield
3. Cecily
+ Adam Boudham/de la Wode/atte Wode
3.Edith
+ Robert the Bald
Cheers
Rosie
On Mar 29, 12:59 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
reasons), related to the Fitz Hardings, and she was wife of Richard
Gaunsell, of Earthcott and La Lea in Gloucestershire. Other lands they
held were the unidentified vills of 'Haueden' and 'Hogeston' which
were the maritagium of Cecily's mother-in-law, Alice, on her marriage
with William Gaunsell. Richard and Cecily's heirs were their two
daughters, and around 1224-29 the inheritance was partitioned between
them. Idonia was to have the chief messuage in Earthcott, while Alice
had that of La Lea - after the death of Cecily who was then holding as
dower. Their mother appears amongst the list of witnesses to the
agreement ("Cecilia matre predictarum dominarum"). Idonia's share of
lands in La Lea was tenanted by Maurice de Gaunt and held in dower by
his widow, Margaret Marshall in 1233.
Idonia was a patron of St Augustine's abbey, Bristol, (founded by
Robert fitz Harding) and she and her husband, Richard the Huntsman
(Ricardus Venator/ Richard le Venur) gave land in Almondsbury in
return for burial in the abbey.
Idonia was also a patron of St Mark's Hospital, Bristol, which was
founded by Maurice de Gaunt, grandson of Robert fitz Harding. Maurice
had a younger brother named Henry, the first master of St Mark's
hospital, whom Idonia calls her kinsman. Additional evidence of fitz
Harding kinship occurred in 1233 when the rector of the hospital of
the Blessed Mary Magdalen of Bristol (founded by Eve, wife of Robert
fitz Harding) quitclaimed right in the lands which Idonia's ancestors
had given them, to be given to St Mark's. Unfortunately these lands
are not mentioned by name. The principal witnesses of the charter were
Lord Thomas de Berkeley and Lord Robert de Gournay - fitz Harding
descendants who attended by virtue of being heirs of the founders of
the two houses.
While it is difficult to pinpoint her place in the family, the
descendants of Cecily can be easily traced through the charters of St
Mark's in C. D. Ross (ed.). Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol.
(Bristol Record Society, 1959).
1. Cecily fl 1224-1229
+ Richard Gaunsell of Earthcott, son of Wiiliam Gaunsell and Alice
2. Idonia Gaunsell, Henry de Gaunt her kinsman
+ Richard the Huntsman d. c. 1234
3. Robert Gaunsell
4. Richard Gaunsell
4.Peter Gaunsell
2. Alice
+Simon Bochan/Boghan/Bowhan of La Lea
3.Isabella
+ Stephen de Eastbach
+ Simon de Dene
3.Alditha
+ Robert de Malefield
3. Cecily
+ Adam Boudham/de la Wode/atte Wode
3.Edith
+ Robert the Bald
Cheers
Rosie
On Mar 29, 12:59 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 26 Mar, Tony Dyer <tonydd...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Can anybody confirm that Robert fitz Harding had a sister called Cecilie?
She appears in a charter to St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol by
William, Earl of Gloucester. The charter confirms grants of
tenements in Bristol, including an orchard by "Cecilie sororis
Roberti filii Hardingi". source "The Cartulary of St Augustine's
Abbey, Bristol" edited by Canon David Walker, Bris & Gloucs Arch
Soc. 1998. The charter is thought by Walker to be from between 1171
and 1183.
She also appears in Smythe's Lives of the Berkeleys (page 17) where
he says she died on the 25th November but knows not what year. A.S
Ellis also includes her in his pedigree in the same book. I believe
there is also a reference by Keats-Rohan that she was a nun at
Shaftesbury but I have not seen this firsthand.
K-R in 'Domesday People' on Harding filius Alnod, p. 244 says of
Harding:
"Father of Nicholas, Robert, a daughter Cecilia (Earldom Glocs. Chh.,
28), a daughter who was a nun of Shaftesbury, and probably a son
Baldwin ..."
So Cecilia was not the nun.
However, I have looked at several websites that have been
recommended to me as good sources for the Berkeleys and she is
noticeable by her absence - even when her five brothers and both her
sisters have been included. Does this indicate some doubt over her
provenance?
None here and I am suprised that I omitted her from my database as I was
trying to include all people related to the Berkeleys and who were
listed in Smyth's volumes. So thanks for the KITA and she is now added
and will be in the web database when it is next updated.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
-
Rosie Bevan
Re: Cecilie, sister of Robert fitz Harding
Dear Tony
I'm not convinced that the "Femina Ricardi Ganselli" recorded in the
carta of Roger de Berkeley [RBE, p. 292] can be the same still living
in 1224-29 - some 68 years later. "Old feoffment" means that the
Gaunsell's original tenure was granted pre 1135 - up to the time of
William de Berkeley. I think it more likely that this Richard might be
the grandfather of Cecily's husband of the same name, and a tenant of
the Berkeley family from early times.
The term used in the charter for kinsman would have been either
'nepos' or 'consanguineus' (I don't know which because the text comes
already translated), but this can refer to almost any degree of
kinship. Henry de Gaunt seems to be slightly younger than Idonia, so
they were possibly of the same generation. He came to the position of
master in 1231 and resigned it in 1268. According to the date of birth
of his elder brother and his mother's death, he would have been born
between 1184 and 1192. Between 1230-41 Idonia was granting her younger
grandson, Peter Gaunsell, various parcels of land, when he would have
been at least 14 but probably older.
Cheers
Rosie
On Mar 27, 6:32 am, Tony Dyer <tonydd...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I'm not convinced that the "Femina Ricardi Ganselli" recorded in the
carta of Roger de Berkeley [RBE, p. 292] can be the same still living
in 1224-29 - some 68 years later. "Old feoffment" means that the
Gaunsell's original tenure was granted pre 1135 - up to the time of
William de Berkeley. I think it more likely that this Richard might be
the grandfather of Cecily's husband of the same name, and a tenant of
the Berkeley family from early times.
The term used in the charter for kinsman would have been either
'nepos' or 'consanguineus' (I don't know which because the text comes
already translated), but this can refer to almost any degree of
kinship. Henry de Gaunt seems to be slightly younger than Idonia, so
they were possibly of the same generation. He came to the position of
master in 1231 and resigned it in 1268. According to the date of birth
of his elder brother and his mother's death, he would have been born
between 1184 and 1192. Between 1230-41 Idonia was granting her younger
grandson, Peter Gaunsell, various parcels of land, when he would have
been at least 14 but probably older.
Cheers
Rosie
On Mar 27, 6:32 am, Tony Dyer <tonydd...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Can anybody confirm that Robert fitz Harding had a sister called Cecilie?
She appears in a charter to St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol by William, Earl of Gloucester. The charter confirms grants of tenements in Bristol, including an orchard by "Cecilie sororis Roberti filii Hardingi". source "The Cartulary of St Augustine's Abbey, Bristol" edited by Canon David Walker, Bris & Gloucs Arch Soc. 1998. The charter is thought by Walker to be from between 1171 and 1183.
She also appears in Smythe's Lives of the Berkeleys (page 17) where he says she died on the 25th November but knows not what year. A.S Ellis also includes her in his pedigree in the same book. I believe there is also a reference by Keats-Rohan that she was a nun at Shaftesbury but I have not seen this firsthand.
However, I have looked at several websites that have been recommended to me as good sources for the Berkeleys and she is noticeable by her absence - even when her five brothers and both her sisters have been included. Does this indicate some doubt over her provenance?
Regards
Tony
---------------------------------
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