I have discovered that an 18th century book called "The annual
register, or a view of the history, politics & literature for the year
1772" London 1773, has on pages 307-312 the memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes
(alias Clinton) who was a son of Henry Clinton the 2nd Earl of Lincoln
by his second wife Elizabeth Morrison.
These is a very interesting account because Sir Henry speaks of the
troubles and arguments he had with his father the 2nd Earl and later
with his half brother (the 3rd Earl). He seems to have been on the
brink of bankrupcy much of the time and also suffered marital
problems. He claims to have hated his second wife Elizabeth Hickman
(though he did have 7 children with her so it can't have been all
bad!)
What intrigued me was that on at least two occasions King James VI
wrote letters to the 2nd Earl on behalf of Sir Henry. James begins
these letters addressing the Earl as Dear Cousin.
I tried using the relationship thingy on Leo's site to work out how
closely related James VI would have been to the Clinton Fynes/Fiennes.
It didn't show up any close relationship so I wondered how close
someone would be to a monarch before being so addressed?
I have been looking at the Clinton-Fiennes for some time and hadn't
found a royal connection later than Edward III but perhaps someone
knows of a link I haven't spotted yet.
Best wishes
Sue
Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
On 19 Mrz., 18:29, "SomersetSue" <SueBu...@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Sue
It was customary for the Monarch to address Earls and other peers
(other than barons) as "Cousin", regardless of whether there was any
blood relationship. Queen Elizabeth II in theory still does this -
there is a graded table of adjectives that go with the various ranks,
as detailed on Francois Velde's excellent site, quoting 'The Laws of
Honour', 1724:
Dukes: 'Our Right Trusty and Right Entirely Beloved Cousin'
Marquesses: 'Our Right Trusty and Entirely Beloved Cousin'
Earls: 'Our Right Trusty and Right Well Beloved Cousin'
Viscounts: 'Our Right Trusty and Well Beloved Cousin'
Barons: 'Right Trusty and Well Beloved'
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/otherprince.htm
MA-R
I have discovered that an 18th century book called "The annual
register, or a view of the history, politics & literature for the year
1772" London 1773, has on pages 307-312 the memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes
(alias Clinton) who was a son of Henry Clinton the 2nd Earl of Lincoln
by his second wife Elizabeth Morrison.
These is a very interesting account because Sir Henry speaks of the
troubles and arguments he had with his father the 2nd Earl and later
with his half brother (the 3rd Earl). He seems to have been on the
brink of bankrupcy much of the time and also suffered marital
problems. He claims to have hated his second wife Elizabeth Hickman
(though he did have 7 children with her so it can't have been all
bad!)
What intrigued me was that on at least two occasions King James VI
wrote letters to the 2nd Earl on behalf of Sir Henry. James begins
these letters addressing the Earl as Dear Cousin.
I tried using the relationship thingy on Leo's site to work out how
closely related James VI would have been to the Clinton Fynes/Fiennes.
It didn't show up any close relationship so I wondered how close
someone would be to a monarch before being so addressed?
I have been looking at the Clinton-Fiennes for some time and hadn't
found a royal connection later than Edward III but perhaps someone
knows of a link I haven't spotted yet.
Best wishes
Sue
Hi Sue
It was customary for the Monarch to address Earls and other peers
(other than barons) as "Cousin", regardless of whether there was any
blood relationship. Queen Elizabeth II in theory still does this -
there is a graded table of adjectives that go with the various ranks,
as detailed on Francois Velde's excellent site, quoting 'The Laws of
Honour', 1724:
Dukes: 'Our Right Trusty and Right Entirely Beloved Cousin'
Marquesses: 'Our Right Trusty and Entirely Beloved Cousin'
Earls: 'Our Right Trusty and Right Well Beloved Cousin'
Viscounts: 'Our Right Trusty and Well Beloved Cousin'
Barons: 'Right Trusty and Well Beloved'
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/otherprince.htm
MA-R
-
Alan R Grey
Re: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
An interesting point, but when did this sort of practice start? Was it
done in medieval times? There are instances then when the King or Queen
(seems to?) make reference to a relationship. For example, Queen
Adeliza referred to "Milisendi cognate mee uxori Roberti Marmiun" [see
Reading Cartulary, #536, Notification by Queen Adeliza to Alexander
bishop of Lincoln, Dec. 1139 x 41?]. Was she just being nice?
Alan R Grey
It was customary for the Monarch to address Earls and other peers
(other than barons) as "Cousin", regardless of whether there was any
blood relationship. Queen Elizabeth II in theory still does this -
there is a graded table of adjectives that go with the various ranks,
as detailed on Francois Velde's excellent site, quoting 'The Laws of
Honour', 1724:
An interesting point, but when did this sort of practice start? Was it
done in medieval times? There are instances then when the King or Queen
(seems to?) make reference to a relationship. For example, Queen
Adeliza referred to "Milisendi cognate mee uxori Roberti Marmiun" [see
Reading Cartulary, #536, Notification by Queen Adeliza to Alexander
bishop of Lincoln, Dec. 1139 x 41?]. Was she just being nice?
Alan R Grey
-
Gjest
Re: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
On 19 Mrz., 20:20, Alan R Grey <a.g...@niwa.co.nz> wrote:
There has been much discussion on this very point in the past here - I
think a search of the archives would be instructive. The short answer
appears to be that the earlier the document, the more chance there is
of it reflecting an actual and close relationship. It also seems
logical that the less exalted the addressee, the more likely it is of
being accurate rather than figurative. My personal view is that the
rise of the formulaic approach appears likely to date from the early
15th century but I cannot claim to be an expert on this.
MA-R
m...@btinternet.com wrote:
It was customary for the Monarch to address Earls and other peers
(other than barons) as "Cousin", regardless of whether there was any
blood relationship. Queen Elizabeth II in theory still does this -
there is a graded table of adjectives that go with the various ranks,
as detailed on Francois Velde's excellent site, quoting 'The Laws of
Honour', 1724:
An interesting point, but when did this sort of practice start? Was it
done in medieval times? There are instances then when the King or Queen
(seems to?) make reference to a relationship. For example, Queen
Adeliza referred to "Milisendi cognate mee uxori Roberti Marmiun" [see
Reading Cartulary, #536, Notification by Queen Adeliza to Alexander
bishop of Lincoln, Dec. 1139 x 41?]. Was she just being nice?
Alan R Grey
There has been much discussion on this very point in the past here - I
think a search of the archives would be instructive. The short answer
appears to be that the earlier the document, the more chance there is
of it reflecting an actual and close relationship. It also seems
logical that the less exalted the addressee, the more likely it is of
being accurate rather than figurative. My personal view is that the
rise of the formulaic approach appears likely to date from the early
15th century but I cannot claim to be an expert on this.
MA-R
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
Dear Sue,
I understand that the monarch's address to the nobility was "cousin". In my
own system I have a system which establishes links between people which is
different from the website. What do you understand by "Royal Connection"? A
descent from the royal family or a cousinage with the royal family?
Henry Clinton, 2nd Earl of Lincoln, son of Edward Clinton, 1st Earl of
Lincoln, son of Thomas Clinton, 8th Lord Clinton, son of John 7th Lord
Clinton, son of Elizabeth Fiennes, daughter of Joan suo jure Baroness Dacre,
daughter of Sir Thomas Dacre, son of Lady Philippa Nevill, daughter of Ralph
Neville, 1st Earl of Wedstmorland, he is father of Cecily Neville 'the Rose
of Raby', she is mother of Edward IV king of England, he is father of
Elizabeth of York, she is mother of Margaret Tudor, she is mother of James V
king of Scots, he is father of Mary Queen of Scots, she is mother of James
VI-I
Through this link Henry Clinton 2nd Earl of Lincoln is a sixth cousin once
removed of King James VI-I
Henry Clinton's first English King as ancestor is Edward I.
Hope this helps.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "SomersetSue" <SueBurne@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:29 AM
Subject: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
I understand that the monarch's address to the nobility was "cousin". In my
own system I have a system which establishes links between people which is
different from the website. What do you understand by "Royal Connection"? A
descent from the royal family or a cousinage with the royal family?
Henry Clinton, 2nd Earl of Lincoln, son of Edward Clinton, 1st Earl of
Lincoln, son of Thomas Clinton, 8th Lord Clinton, son of John 7th Lord
Clinton, son of Elizabeth Fiennes, daughter of Joan suo jure Baroness Dacre,
daughter of Sir Thomas Dacre, son of Lady Philippa Nevill, daughter of Ralph
Neville, 1st Earl of Wedstmorland, he is father of Cecily Neville 'the Rose
of Raby', she is mother of Edward IV king of England, he is father of
Elizabeth of York, she is mother of Margaret Tudor, she is mother of James V
king of Scots, he is father of Mary Queen of Scots, she is mother of James
VI-I
Through this link Henry Clinton 2nd Earl of Lincoln is a sixth cousin once
removed of King James VI-I
Henry Clinton's first English King as ancestor is Edward I.
Hope this helps.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "SomersetSue" <SueBurne@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:29 AM
Subject: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
I have discovered that an 18th century book called "The annual
register, or a view of the history, politics & literature for the year
1772" London 1773, has on pages 307-312 the memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes
(alias Clinton) who was a son of Henry Clinton the 2nd Earl of Lincoln
by his second wife Elizabeth Morrison.
These is a very interesting account because Sir Henry speaks of the
troubles and arguments he had with his father the 2nd Earl and later
with his half brother (the 3rd Earl). He seems to have been on the
brink of bankrupcy much of the time and also suffered marital
problems. He claims to have hated his second wife Elizabeth Hickman
(though he did have 7 children with her so it can't have been all
bad!)
What intrigued me was that on at least two occasions King James VI
wrote letters to the 2nd Earl on behalf of Sir Henry. James begins
these letters addressing the Earl as Dear Cousin.
I tried using the relationship thingy on Leo's site to work out how
closely related James VI would have been to the Clinton Fynes/Fiennes.
It didn't show up any close relationship so I wondered how close
someone would be to a monarch before being so addressed?
I have been looking at the Clinton-Fiennes for some time and hadn't
found a royal connection later than Edward III but perhaps someone
knows of a link I haven't spotted yet.
Best wishes
Sue
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SomersetSue
Re: Memoirs of Sir Henry Fynes (Clinton)
Thank you for explaining that.
These few generations of Fiennes/Fynes alias Clintons which I am
trying to concentrate on at the moment are proving fascinating. Their
numerous squabbles with each other and their neighbours make
interesting reading and "my" particular branch seems to have become
rapidly impoverished.
Best wishes
Sue
These few generations of Fiennes/Fynes alias Clintons which I am
trying to concentrate on at the moment are proving fascinating. Their
numerous squabbles with each other and their neighbours make
interesting reading and "my" particular branch seems to have become
rapidly impoverished.
Best wishes
Sue