John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

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wjhonson

John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av wjhonson » 13 mar 2007 00:33:55

In Vis Norths

<a href = "http://books.google.com/books?
vid=OCLC05037153&id=wLgEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA170&lpg=PA171&dq=%22Sir+Thomas
+Brudenell%22">Visitations of Northamptonshire 1564 and 1618-19, page
170</a>

we see that Agnes Bussey "heir of her father" married
Edmund /Brudenell/ , Knt, Lord of Deen (ob 25 Eliz)

Not that "Agnes" is necessarily that uncommon a name, but today I was
editing the Bussey family entries in
"Register of Haydor, co Lincoln 1559-1649"

which is extracted (in part) here
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch P0011261

and by chance
Agnes /Bussey/ bap 26 Sep 1564 Haydor, Lincolnshire

IF Vis Northants is correct saying she was "heir of her father" then
this cannot be the *same* Agnes, unless I have her incorrectly (now)
placed as dau of John Bussey (living in 1588) who had as his apparent
heir Sir Edmund /Bussey/ , Knt of Heydour who married Frances (or
variously Anne) Cave. Would there really be two Agnes Bussey's worthy
of mention in [some] Vis. both from co Lincs?

The mention of an Agnes Bussey is a bit tangential to my main thrust
which is to try to prove descents from Edmund Bussey and Miss whatever
Cave. I'll report of that later, but I had to mention this part now.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mar 2007 16:32:20

On Mar 12, 11:33 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In Vis Norths

a href = "http://books.google.com/books?
vid=OCLC05037153&id=wLgEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA170&lpg=PA171&dq=%22Sir+Thomas
+Brudenell%22">Visitations of Northamptonshire 1564 and 1618-19, page
170</a

we see that Agnes Bussey "heir of her father" married
Edmund /Brudenell/ , Knt, Lord of Deen (ob 25 Eliz)

Not that "Agnes" is necessarily that uncommon a name, but today I was
editing the Bussey family entries in
"Register of Haydor, co Lincoln 1559-1649"

which is extracted (in part) herewww.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch P0011261

and by chance
Agnes /Bussey/ bap 26 Sep 1564 Haydor, Lincolnshire

IF Vis Northants is correct saying she was "heir of her father" then
this cannot be the *same* Agnes, unless I have her incorrectly (now)
placed as dau of John Bussey (living in 1588) who had as his apparent
heir Sir Edmund /Bussey/ , Knt of Heydour who married Frances (or
variously Anne) Cave. Would there really be two Agnes Bussey's worthy
of mention in [some] Vis. both from co Lincs?

The mention of an Agnes Bussey is a bit tangential to my main thrust
which is to try to prove descents from Edmund Bussey and Miss whatever
Cave. I'll report of that later, but I had to mention this part now.

Will Johnson

Dear Will

If Agnes Bussey's husband Sir Edmund Brudenell died "25 Elizabeth" (ie
1582-3) it is somewhat unlikely [unless she was a teenage widow] that
she was baptised (and thus likely born) in late 1564. I think "25
Elizabeth" may be wrong, however, as his will was proved PCC 26
February 1585, which seems a little late for a 1582-3 death.

The following PROCAT document suggests the Bussell-Brudenell
connection has some foundation:

C 4/24/205

Pleading with mention of John Bussy, Henry Bussy, Sir Miles Bussy,
Edmond Brudenell and his wife Agnes, Sir Robert Aurwhytt, Lord Borough
and George Shawe
Date of document: Sixteenth century

Furthermore, we find on A2A the following deed, for instance, dated 20
November 1559:

Thor 1/1/9/1 (Lincs RO)

A piece of ground called shorte stockhurne in the east field of
Marston of 24 a. 1 r., to be enclosed by William Thorold, all of which
enclosures in Marston contain lands of freeholders which Edmund
Brudenell undertakes to obtain by exchange or otherwise and which he
and Agnes his wife will convey to W. T. within a year, together with
the Hougham enclosures.

This shows that Edmund Brudenell had a wife Agnes in 1559 - and
(unless he married two women by the same name, or this was a different
EB) she cannot therefore have been born in 1564.

MA-R

Matt Tompkins

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 13 mar 2007 17:20:30

On 13 Mar, 15:32, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
If Agnes Bussey's husband Sir Edmund Brudenell died "25 Elizabeth" (ie
1582-3) it is somewhat unlikely [unless she was a teenage widow] that
she was baptised (and thus likely born) in late 1564. I think "25
Elizabeth" may be wrong, however, as his will was proved PCC 26
February 1585, which seems a little late for a 1582-3 death.

This shows that Edmund Brudenell had a wife Agnes in 1559 - and
(unless he married two women by the same name, or this was a different
EB) she cannot therefore have been born in 1564.


Dear Will and Michael,

there is quite a bit about Edmund Brudenell and his first wife Agnes
Bussy in:

Joan Wake, "The Brudenells of Deene" (London, 1953), and

Mary E Finch, "The Wealth of Five Northamptonshire families
1540-1640", Northants Rec Soc 19 (1955), in ch. VI 'Brudenell of
Deene'.

The latter refers (at p. 141) to 'Edmund's marriage in 1539 to Agnes,
only child of John Bussy of Hougham" and describes in detail the
marriage settlement, by which John Bussy settled the reversion in all
his lands (seven manors and five advowsons in Lincs, Derbys and
Rutland, none of which included Heydour) on Edmund and Agnes, before
stating (p. 142) that 'John Bussy died without male heirs in 1542. It
then (p. 143) describes a legal struggle by Agnes' cousin, John Bussy
of Heydour, to recover the Bussy lands, which continued after both
Agnes' death (on 8 Jan 1583) and that of Edmund (24 Feb 1585) until
1589, when John Bussy finally recovered half of them.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

wjhonson

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av wjhonson » 14 mar 2007 03:57:56

Thanks to both of you for your helpful replies.

Yes I did know that the Agnes Bussey baptised 26 Sep 1564 at Haydor
could not be the same person who also was the wife of Edmund
Brudenell. I was implying rather that it appeared to my eye that
there must be a close connection between the Busseys of Heydour,
Lincs. and the Busseys of Hougham, Lincs.

In particular perhaps there was a younger son of John Bussey, Knt of
Hougham who would be the grandfather of that John Bussey of Heydour
who was still living in 1588. I certainly don't know at this point,
I'm just speculating.

John Bussey of Heydour (Haydor), Lincs was having children from 1560
to 1579 at Haydor, all presumably by his wife Elizabeth whose surname
I don't know but it's possible she was also a Brudenell as their
fourth (?) son is named Brudenell Bussey bap 2 Jul 1563

Interestingly enough they ALSO have a son named Myles (bap 2 Feb
1575). Again not that Miles is necessarily a rare name, but it's just
tempting enough to make one think the families were closely connected.

Robert O'Connor

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av Robert O'Connor » 14 mar 2007 08:31:47

"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1173802830.030825.162310@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...

snip

Dear Will and Michael,

there is quite a bit about Edmund Brudenell and his first wife Agnes
Bussy in:

Joan Wake, "The Brudenells of Deene" (London, 1953), and

Mary E Finch, "The Wealth of Five Northamptonshire families
1540-1640", Northants Rec Soc 19 (1955), in ch. VI 'Brudenell of
Deene'.


Matt

As you have mentioned these sources on the Brudenell family I wonder if I
could ask you a question concerning a sister of Sir Edmund Brudenell, Judith
who married John Harington, of Witham, Lincolnshire (d 1597).

The Harington pedigree in 'Lincolnshire Pedigrees' states that Judith was
the mother of two children by John Harington, that is Robert Harington (d
1601) and Alice Harington (M Stephen Rogers, of Burton).

However, I suspect that Judith was also the mother of another of John
Harington's children, that is Mary Harington (M 1586 Richard Worsley, of
Deeping Gate, Northamptonshire who died 1607)

I wonder if either of the Brudenell sources that you have quoted reveal
anything on Judith Brudenell's children. I would also be interested if
details were disclosed of when Judith was born (unlikely perhaps) or when
she married John Harington. Those dates may assist in revealing by
chronological means whether Mary Harington was Judith's daughter.

Regards
Robert O'Connor

Matt Tompkins

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 14 mar 2007 20:00:53

On 14 Mar, 02:57, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Yes I did know that the Agnes Bussey baptised 26 Sep 1564 at Haydor
could not be the same person who also was the wife of Edmund
Brudenell. I was implying rather that it appeared to my eye that
there must be a close connection between the Busseys of Heydour,
Lincs. and the Busseys of Hougham, Lincs.

In particular perhaps there was a younger son of John Bussey, Knt of
Hougham who would be the grandfather of that John Bussey of Heydour
who was still living in 1588. I certainly don't know at this point,
I'm just speculating.

Yes, the John Bussy of Heydour who conducted the Star Chamber lawsuit
against the Brudenells (trying to recover the Hougham estates) from
the 1540s until it ended in 1589 was Agnes Bussy's first cousin - I
think he was the son of Henry Bussy, a younger brother of Agnes'
father John Bussy of Hougham.

Matt

Matt Tompkins

Re: John Bussey, Lord of Hougham and Scotton, Lincs

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 14 mar 2007 20:10:33

On 14 Mar, 07:31, "Robert O'Connor" <rocon...@es.co.nz> wrote:
As you have mentioned these sources on the Brudenell family I wonder if I
could ask you a question concerning a sister of Sir Edmund Brudenell, Judith
who married John Harington, of Witham, Lincolnshire (d 1597).

The Harington pedigree in 'Lincolnshire Pedigrees' states that Judith was
the mother of two children by John Harington, that is Robert Harington (d
1601) and Alice Harington (M Stephen Rogers, of Burton).

However, I suspect that Judith was also the mother of another of John
Harington's children, that is Mary Harington (M 1586 Richard Worsley, of
Deeping Gate, Northamptonshire who died 1607)

I wonder if either of the Brudenell sources that you have quoted reveal
anything on Judith Brudenell's children. I would also be interested if
details were disclosed of when Judith was born (unlikely perhaps) or when
she married John Harington. Those dates may assist in revealing by
chronological means whether Mary Harington was Judith's daughter.

Hello again Robert,

the pedigree tables in both books show Edmund Brudenell's sister who
married John Harrington of Witham, but I'm afraid neither book says
anything more about her (except that the pedigree in Finch indicates
that she and Harrington had issue). They both call her Juliana,
however - not Judith.

Matt

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