Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).
According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.
According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375. This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which
we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e.
there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first
wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.
I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference. This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.
In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis. He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who
also died shortly thereafter. His heirs were his sisters Agnes and
Elizabeth. HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam
Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH
Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan. This shows
that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married
the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know
Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court
of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have
bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow. We know that her father was Roger de
Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393)
who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.
Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by
Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife. Joan may therefore have had three husbands,
of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively. As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.
The pedigree runs thus:
1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley)
(d 1393). Issue:
2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417). Issue:
3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.
MA-R
Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
In message of 5 Mar, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Excellent and many thanks.
I happen to have the Camden publication, vol 2 of 1993, "The Cartularies
of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" and on p. 95 this blithely quotes the
HoP account on the later Fraunceys family. However it also gives Adam
Fraunceys, d. 1417, a third daughter Thomasia, a minoress (ie nun),
without specifying her mother. I see that you referred to a third
daughter in a previous note (22 Dec 2005); are you still of the mind
that Thomasia was the daughter of Margaret Refham?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).
According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.
According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375. This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which
we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e.
there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first
wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.
I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference. This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.
In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis. He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who
also died shortly thereafter. His heirs were his sisters Agnes and
Elizabeth. HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam
Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH
Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan. This shows
that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married
the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know
Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court
of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have
bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow. We know that her father was Roger de
Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393)
who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.
Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by
Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife. Joan may therefore have had three husbands,
of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively. As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.
The pedigree runs thus:
1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley)
(d 1393). Issue:
2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417). Issue:
3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.
Excellent and many thanks.
I happen to have the Camden publication, vol 2 of 1993, "The Cartularies
of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" and on p. 95 this blithely quotes the
HoP account on the later Fraunceys family. However it also gives Adam
Fraunceys, d. 1417, a third daughter Thomasia, a minoress (ie nun),
without specifying her mother. I see that you referred to a third
daughter in a previous note (22 Dec 2005); are you still of the mind
that Thomasia was the daughter of Margaret Refham?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
On Mar 6, 12:48 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
Cheers Tim. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that we can state with any
certainty whose mother Thomasia was. HoP notes that Sir Adam left her
£20 in his will; I can't recall whether there is any original document
listed in the Cartulary which adds any details about her existance.
Given that both sons and the other two daughters were by Sir Adam's
first wife Margaret de Refham, and that the second wife (Margaret
Holand) is not otherwise known to have had children, it may be
reasonable to suppose Thomasia came from the first marriage, but
that's not the same as proof. The inheritance patterns (Joan
Osterley, Sir Adam himself) showing that Agnes and Elizabeth were the
eventual heiresses of the first marriage are inconclusive, as
religious were excluded from them.
MA-R
In message of 5 Mar, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).
According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.
According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375. This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which
we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e.
there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first
wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.
I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference. This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.
In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis. He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who
also died shortly thereafter. His heirs were his sisters Agnes and
Elizabeth. HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam
Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH
Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan. This shows
that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married
the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know
Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court
of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have
bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow. We know that her father was Roger de
Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393)
who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.
Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by
Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife. Joan may therefore have had three husbands,
of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively. As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.
The pedigree runs thus:
1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley)
(d 1393). Issue:
2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417). Issue:
3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.
Excellent and many thanks.
I happen to have the Camden publication, vol 2 of 1993, "The Cartularies
of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" and on p. 95 this blithely quotes the
HoP account on the later Fraunceys family. However it also gives Adam
Fraunceys, d. 1417, a third daughter Thomasia, a minoress (ie nun),
without specifying her mother. I see that you referred to a third
daughter in a previous note (22 Dec 2005); are you still of the mind
that Thomasia was the daughter of Margaret Refham?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cheers Tim. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that we can state with any
certainty whose mother Thomasia was. HoP notes that Sir Adam left her
£20 in his will; I can't recall whether there is any original document
listed in the Cartulary which adds any details about her existance.
Given that both sons and the other two daughters were by Sir Adam's
first wife Margaret de Refham, and that the second wife (Margaret
Holand) is not otherwise known to have had children, it may be
reasonable to suppose Thomasia came from the first marriage, but
that's not the same as proof. The inheritance patterns (Joan
Osterley, Sir Adam himself) showing that Agnes and Elizabeth were the
eventual heiresses of the first marriage are inconclusive, as
religious were excluded from them.
MA-R
-
wjhonson
Re: Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
On Mar 7, 2:09 am, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
One chronologic note which you didn't post, but which has been
discussed in the past is that Agnes is called "30 and more" and
Elizabeth is called "24 and more" in their father's 1417 IPM
Elizabeth must have been born *just* as Margaret died, since Margaret
was dead by her own mother's 1393 death.
Will Johnson
On Mar 6, 12:48 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 5 Mar, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).
According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.
According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375. This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which
we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e.
there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first
wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.
I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference. This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.
In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis. He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who
also died shortly thereafter. His heirs were his sisters Agnes and
Elizabeth. HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam
Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH
Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan. This shows
that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married
the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know
Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court
of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have
bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow. We know that her father was Roger de
Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393)
who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.
Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by
Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife. Joan may therefore have had three husbands,
of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively. As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.
The pedigree runs thus:
1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley)
(d 1393). Issue:
2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417). Issue:
3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.
Excellent and many thanks.
I happen to have the Camden publication, vol 2 of 1993, "The Cartularies
of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" and on p. 95 this blithely quotes the
HoP account on the later Fraunceys family. However it also gives Adam
Fraunceys, d. 1417, a third daughter Thomasia, a minoress (ie nun),
without specifying her mother. I see that you referred to a third
daughter in a previous note (22 Dec 2005); are you still of the mind
that Thomasia was the daughter of Margaret Refham?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cheers Tim. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that we can state with any
certainty whose mother Thomasia was. HoP notes that Sir Adam left her
£20 in his will; I can't recall whether there is any original document
listed in the Cartulary which adds any details about her existance.
Given that both sons and the other two daughters were by Sir Adam's
first wife Margaret de Refham, and that the second wife (Margaret
Holand) is not otherwise known to have had children, it may be
reasonable to suppose Thomasia came from the first marriage, but
that's not the same as proof. The inheritance patterns (Joan
Osterley, Sir Adam himself) showing that Agnes and Elizabeth were the
eventual heiresses of the first marriage are inconclusive, as
religious were excluded from them.
MA-R- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
One chronologic note which you didn't post, but which has been
discussed in the past is that Agnes is called "30 and more" and
Elizabeth is called "24 and more" in their father's 1417 IPM
Elizabeth must have been born *just* as Margaret died, since Margaret
was dead by her own mother's 1393 death.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
On 8 Mrz., 01:10, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Thanks Will - absolutely right - I have Elizabeth's birth and
Margaret's death as circa 1392. Margaret was married for the first
time by 1363, so was probably born about 1350-ish.
MA-R
On Mar 7, 2:09 am, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Mar 6, 12:48 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 5 Mar, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).
According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.
According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375. This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which
we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e.
there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first
wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.
I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference. This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.
In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis. He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who
also died shortly thereafter. His heirs were his sisters Agnes and
Elizabeth. HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam
Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH
Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan. This shows
that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married
the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know
Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court
of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have
bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow. We know that her father was Roger de
Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393)
who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.
Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by
Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife. Joan may therefore have had three husbands,
of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively. As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.
The pedigree runs thus:
1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley)
(d 1393). Issue:
2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417). Issue:
3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.
Excellent and many thanks.
I happen to have the Camden publication, vol 2 of 1993, "The Cartularies
of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys" and on p. 95 this blithely quotes the
HoP account on the later Fraunceys family. However it also gives Adam
Fraunceys, d. 1417, a third daughter Thomasia, a minoress (ie nun),
without specifying her mother. I see that you referred to a third
daughter in a previous note (22 Dec 2005); are you still of the mind
that Thomasia was the daughter of Margaret Refham?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hidequoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cheers Tim. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that we can state with any
certainty whose mother Thomasia was. HoP notes that Sir Adam left her
£20 in his will; I can't recall whether there is any original document
listed in the Cartulary which adds any details about her existance.
Given that both sons and the other two daughters were by Sir Adam's
first wife Margaret de Refham, and that the second wife (Margaret
Holand) is not otherwise known to have had children, it may be
reasonable to suppose Thomasia came from the first marriage, but
that's not the same as proof. The inheritance patterns (Joan
Osterley, Sir Adam himself) showing that Agnes and Elizabeth were the
eventual heiresses of the first marriage are inconclusive, as
religious were excluded from them.
MA-R- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
One chronologic note which you didn't post, but which has been
discussed in the past is that Agnes is called "30 and more" and
Elizabeth is called "24 and more" in their father's 1417 IPM
Elizabeth must have been born *just* as Margaret died, since Margaret
was dead by her own mother's 1393 death.
Will Johnson- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
- Zitierten Text anzeigen -
Thanks Will - absolutely right - I have Elizabeth's birth and
Margaret's death as circa 1392. Margaret was married for the first
time by 1363, so was probably born about 1350-ish.
MA-R