I have am wondering if anyone can decipher a word I have .
It is on a sheet of photocopied paper from Ghent Archives, dated 1923 and
drawn & written by probably a researcher.
I already have the epitaph of Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt, at
the end of the 14th Century recorded in Chronicon Flandriae
As well as a drawring of Giselle's tomb, it has the following: Then what I
have managed to have translated so far
I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).
Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het ???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above
Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters ???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)
Thanks
Louise
re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Dear Louise,
This is most interesting. Some input from Peter, Leo and others
may shed additional light, but if the description of the family is
validated this would appear to place Ogiva (wife of Baldwin IV of
Flanders) and her sister Gisela (wife of Ralph of Alost, possibly
mother of Gilbert of Gand/Ghent) outside the immediate family of Count
Frederick.
Thanks for bringing this to light.
Cheers,
John
On Feb 26, 5:42 am, "Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
This is most interesting. Some input from Peter, Leo and others
may shed additional light, but if the description of the family is
validated this would appear to place Ogiva (wife of Baldwin IV of
Flanders) and her sister Gisela (wife of Ralph of Alost, possibly
mother of Gilbert of Gand/Ghent) outside the immediate family of Count
Frederick.
Thanks for bringing this to light.
Cheers,
John
On Feb 26, 5:42 am, "Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I have am wondering if anyone can decipher a word I have .
It is on a sheet of photocopied paper from Ghent Archives, dated 1923 and
drawn & written by probably a researcher.
I already have the epitaph of Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt, at
the end of the 14th Century recorded in Chronicon Flandriae
As well as a drawring of Giselle's tomb, it has the following: Then what I
have managed to have translated so far
I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).
Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het ???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above
Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters ???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)
Thanks
Louise
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:42:25 +1100, "Louise"
<louiseg82@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I assume that Childebrecht is a form of the name Gilbert, in turn a
shortened form of Giselbert, which is the name that all medieval
sources give as the name of Otgive's father.
Stewart Baldwin
<louiseg82@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I have am wondering if anyone can decipher a word I have .
It is on a sheet of photocopied paper from Ghent Archives, dated 1923 and
drawn & written by probably a researcher.
I already have the epitaph of Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt, at
the end of the 14th Century recorded in Chronicon Flandriae
As well as a drawring of Giselle's tomb, it has the following: Then what I
have managed to have translated so far
I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).
Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het ???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above
Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters ???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)
I assume that Childebrecht is a form of the name Gilbert, in turn a
shortened form of Giselbert, which is the name that all medieval
sources give as the name of Otgive's father.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
In article <j3n5u2dncei3rodf03koftbtn40gj5iif0@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
I can't comment on the particular people or the specific sources here,
and don't have a good Germanic name-lexicon or lemmatized name-root
index right to hand, but I am under the impression that 'Child-' and
'Gisel-' are authentic distinct roots.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
I assume that Childebrecht is a form of the name Gilbert, in turn a
shortened form of Giselbert, which is the name that all medieval
sources give as the name of Otgive's father.
I can't comment on the particular people or the specific sources here,
and don't have a good Germanic name-lexicon or lemmatized name-root
index right to hand, but I am under the impression that 'Child-' and
'Gisel-' are authentic distinct roots.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
Volucris
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Hello Louise,
I'm a bit puzzeld by the wording of your post.
You have an note from 1923 of an previous researcher mixing English
with Flemmish (Dutch) statements regarding the drawing of a tomb with
a few Dutch lines.
Can you give us the full wording of notes of that researcher. I can
not make out what the precise text is and what the interpretation is
of
a) the previous researcher and
b) you yourself.
Is it the remark of the researcher that refers to the epitaph of
Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt or are those your words?
The lines seem to refer to a previous mentioning of Otgiva. But that
is missing in your statement. The lines do not mention plurality:
dochter, sij light, sij, haar. This al seems to refer only to Gisela.
Or should we regard these remarks as refering to the vrouwe Otgiva,
who should then be seen as the sister buried in the abby of St. Peter?
Before one loses oneself in speculation the starting point should be
clear.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 26 feb, 11:42, "Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I'm a bit puzzeld by the wording of your post.
You have an note from 1923 of an previous researcher mixing English
with Flemmish (Dutch) statements regarding the drawing of a tomb with
a few Dutch lines.
Can you give us the full wording of notes of that researcher. I can
not make out what the precise text is and what the interpretation is
of
a) the previous researcher and
b) you yourself.
Is it the remark of the researcher that refers to the epitaph of
Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt or are those your words?
The lines seem to refer to a previous mentioning of Otgiva. But that
is missing in your statement. The lines do not mention plurality:
dochter, sij light, sij, haar. This al seems to refer only to Gisela.
Or should we regard these remarks as refering to the vrouwe Otgiva,
who should then be seen as the sister buried in the abby of St. Peter?
Before one loses oneself in speculation the starting point should be
clear.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 26 feb, 11:42, "Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I have am wondering if anyone can decipher a word I have .
It is on a sheet of photocopied paper from Ghent Archives, dated 1923 and
drawn & written by probably a researcher.
I already have the epitaph of Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt, at
the end of the 14th Century recorded in Chronicon Flandriae
As well as a drawring of Giselle's tomb, it has the following: Then what I
have managed to have translated so far
I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).
Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het ???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above
Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters ???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)
Thanks
Louise
-
Volucris
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Louise kindly provided me with a scan of the note (1923) and a scan of
the drawing from Chronicon Flandriae (1460).
This is what I can make of the text on the note.
Interpretation:
"Gisila dochter van Chisebrecht Grave van Luxembourg, en Suster vrauw
Ognie voornoemt.
Sy light begraven int Klooster van St. Pieters aen het welcke Sy in
haer leeven groote weldaeden gedaen heeft.
Haer Grafschrift is uytgedruckt als volgt:
Famina virtutis jacet isto Gisla sepulcro, quie apostolicis rite
patrocinus Delefut (delefsit?), junii duo denas aute Calendas
oftutetunc (officetunc?) ridiens, venerat unde prius."
Translation:
Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned.
She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Petrus to which she in her life
did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:
The Latin part I leave untranslated. That's no speciality of mine.
This is what the text on the topside of the drawing says:
Dits Ghiselijne sgraven dochter van lutsenburch suster van vrau Ogine
voornoemt.
Below the drawing of Ghiselijne with her ascribed family arms it says
in English (as much as I can read it):
A drawing by the same artist and the second of the pair, showing
Giselle.
In italics:
This is Ghiselyne, daughter of the Count of Luxembourg, sister of Lady
Ogive, afore-said.
The English text covers the Dutch lines neatly.
Between the two there seems to be a small difference between the exact
wording of the note and of the text accompanying the drawing from
1460.
The note speaks of
"Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned. She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Peter to
which she in her life did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:"
Latin lines.
The text speaks of
"This is Ghiselyne, daughter of the Count of Luxembourg, sister of
Lady Ogive, afore-said."
I myselve would not make a point of the different spelling of the name
Otgiva (Ognie-Ogive).
The note looks a distorted (no 'of') and an added (of 'Gisebrecht')
younger version of the text with the drawing. As I can conclude the
drawing is one of two by the same artist. In 1460 in the Chronicon
Flandria of Adrian de Budt the correct spelling of the names Otgiva
and Gisela was lost but the knowledge was there that they were
daughters of the count of Luxemburg. In the preceding pages of the
Chronicon Otgiva must have been mentioned in the text hence the
reference to afore-said.
The text in the note seems to be a later elaboration of the known
facts. It tells of Gisela being buried in the Abbey of St. Peter to
which she in her life did many good deeds. These good deeds are indeed
correct as Gisela donated in 1056 the domain Ronse with all appendages
and rights to St. Peter's Abbey at Ghent. Somewhere between 1036-1052
she and her husband donated a mansus at Mater to the same Abbey. In
1058 she donated one of her serfs as ecclesiastical tributary. The
information for this I have from dr. hist. E. Warlop, "The Flemish
Nobility before 1300", Kortrijk 1975, pp.73, 79, 84, 158, 392.
The later addition of the name Gisebrecht may thus draw on known facts
from other sources. In that light I would point out that Gisela and
her husband Ralph of Aalst had as sons: Baldwin (1046->), Ralph (1056-
Gilbert may thus have come from Gisela's side of the family.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 27 feb, 01:02, "Volucris" <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
the drawing from Chronicon Flandriae (1460).
This is what I can make of the text on the note.
Interpretation:
"Gisila dochter van Chisebrecht Grave van Luxembourg, en Suster vrauw
Ognie voornoemt.
Sy light begraven int Klooster van St. Pieters aen het welcke Sy in
haer leeven groote weldaeden gedaen heeft.
Haer Grafschrift is uytgedruckt als volgt:
Famina virtutis jacet isto Gisla sepulcro, quie apostolicis rite
patrocinus Delefut (delefsit?), junii duo denas aute Calendas
oftutetunc (officetunc?) ridiens, venerat unde prius."
Translation:
Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned.
She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Petrus to which she in her life
did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:
The Latin part I leave untranslated. That's no speciality of mine.
This is what the text on the topside of the drawing says:
Dits Ghiselijne sgraven dochter van lutsenburch suster van vrau Ogine
voornoemt.
Below the drawing of Ghiselijne with her ascribed family arms it says
in English (as much as I can read it):
A drawing by the same artist and the second of the pair, showing
Giselle.
In italics:
This is Ghiselyne, daughter of the Count of Luxembourg, sister of Lady
Ogive, afore-said.
The English text covers the Dutch lines neatly.
Between the two there seems to be a small difference between the exact
wording of the note and of the text accompanying the drawing from
1460.
The note speaks of
"Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned. She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Peter to
which she in her life did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:"
Latin lines.
The text speaks of
"This is Ghiselyne, daughter of the Count of Luxembourg, sister of
Lady Ogive, afore-said."
I myselve would not make a point of the different spelling of the name
Otgiva (Ognie-Ogive).
The note looks a distorted (no 'of') and an added (of 'Gisebrecht')
younger version of the text with the drawing. As I can conclude the
drawing is one of two by the same artist. In 1460 in the Chronicon
Flandria of Adrian de Budt the correct spelling of the names Otgiva
and Gisela was lost but the knowledge was there that they were
daughters of the count of Luxemburg. In the preceding pages of the
Chronicon Otgiva must have been mentioned in the text hence the
reference to afore-said.
The text in the note seems to be a later elaboration of the known
facts. It tells of Gisela being buried in the Abbey of St. Peter to
which she in her life did many good deeds. These good deeds are indeed
correct as Gisela donated in 1056 the domain Ronse with all appendages
and rights to St. Peter's Abbey at Ghent. Somewhere between 1036-1052
she and her husband donated a mansus at Mater to the same Abbey. In
1058 she donated one of her serfs as ecclesiastical tributary. The
information for this I have from dr. hist. E. Warlop, "The Flemish
Nobility before 1300", Kortrijk 1975, pp.73, 79, 84, 158, 392.
The later addition of the name Gisebrecht may thus draw on known facts
from other sources. In that light I would point out that Gisela and
her husband Ralph of Aalst had as sons: Baldwin (1046->), Ralph (1056-
), Gilbert (1056->) and Ragenfrid (1075). The sons Baldwin and Ralph
are named for the father and grandfather of Ralph of Aalst. The name
Gilbert may thus have come from Gisela's side of the family.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 27 feb, 01:02, "Volucris" <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Hello Louise,
I'm a bit puzzeld by the wording of your post.
You have an note from 1923 of an previous researcher mixing English
with Flemmish (Dutch) statements regarding the drawing of a tomb with
a few Dutch lines.
Can you give us the full wording of notes of that researcher. I can
not make out what the precise text is and what the interpretation is
of
a) the previous researcher and
b) you yourself.
Is it the remark of the researcher that refers to the epitaph of
Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt or are those your words?
The lines seem to refer to a previous mentioning of Otgiva. But that
is missing in your statement. The lines do not mention plurality:
dochter, sij light, sij, haar. This al seems to refer only to Gisela.
Or should we regard these remarks as refering to the vrouwe Otgiva,
who should then be seen as the sister buried in the abby of St. Peter?
Before one loses oneself in speculation the starting point should be
clear.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 26 feb, 11:42, "Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
I have am wondering if anyone can decipher a word I have .
It is on a sheet of photocopied paper from Ghent Archives, dated 1923 and
drawn & written by probably a researcher.
I already have the epitaph of Giselle of Luxembourg by Adrian de Budt, at
the end of the 14th Century recorded in Chronicon Flandriae
As well as a drawring of Giselle's tomb, it has the following: Then what I
have managed to have translated so far
I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).
Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het ???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above
Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters ???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)
Thanks
Louise- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
-
Volucris
Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Andrew,
groote = big, great, extensive
weldaeden = good deeds
I must have been inspired by Louise's prompting in her initial post
and the known facts that Gisela did one major and two minor deeds that
we know of.
As Louise provided me with another scan of the mentioned note
mentioning the text, there can be seen on that page a small coat of
arms in the center (looks similar to the one on the mentioned drawing)
and on the top side there are a few words scibbled that indicate that
the notes are made from a manuscript (N.23 Ex Ms Arend Van Wynendael).
The manuscript is probably known in the Archives of Ghent. A quick
Google search gave no results though.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 28 feb, 07:59, "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.i...@skynet.be> wrote:
groote = big, great, extensive
weldaeden = good deeds
I must have been inspired by Louise's prompting in her initial post
and the known facts that Gisela did one major and two minor deeds that
we know of.
As Louise provided me with another scan of the mentioned note
mentioning the text, there can be seen on that page a small coat of
arms in the center (looks similar to the one on the mentioned drawing)
and on the top side there are a few words scibbled that indicate that
the notes are made from a manuscript (N.23 Ex Ms Arend Van Wynendael).
The manuscript is probably known in the Archives of Ghent. A quick
Google search gave no results though.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
On 28 feb, 07:59, "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.i...@skynet.be> wrote:
That solves one problem I had. So in fact it says she did "great good deeds"
not "many"?
Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Volucris [mailto:voluc...@kpnplanet.nl]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 February 2007 11:51 PM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg
Louise kindly provided me with a scan of the note (1923) and a scan of
the drawing from Chronicon Flandriae (1460).
This is what I can make of the text on the note.
Interpretation:
"Gisila dochter van Chisebrecht Grave van Luxembourg, en Suster vrauw
Ognie voornoemt.
Sy light begraven int Klooster van St. Pieters aen het welcke Sy in
haer leeven groote weldaeden gedaen heeft.
Haer Grafschrift is uytgedruckt als volgt:
Famina virtutis jacet isto Gisla sepulcro, quie apostolicis rite
patrocinus Delefut (delefsit?), junii duo denas aute Calendas
oftutetunc (officetunc?) ridiens, venerat unde prius."
Translation:
Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned.
She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Petrus to which she in her life
did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:
The Latin part I leave untranslated. That's no speciality of mine.
This is what the text on the topside of the drawing says:
Dits Ghiselijne sgraven dochter van lutsenburch suster van vrau Ogine
voornoemt.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -