Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

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Genie

Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 11 feb 2007 14:04:09

Hello Everyone
This is my first post and I have to admit I am way out of the realm
with medieval history and genealogy, and much more at home with 18th
and 19th century coalminers and weavers in Lanarkshire. I have been
following the messages for a week now trying to build up the courage
to post my enquiry, particularly in light of the tone of some of the
recent replies (smile)! I hope mine doesn't also fall into the 'stupid
question' category, but I don't know where else to turn. I would
really appreciate some guidance from the experts with a situation I
have been struggling with for the past few weeks. This note is a bit
convoluted and long-winded, so I hope you can follow my train of
thought. If your verdict is 'Off with her head'...I promise to go
quietly!

I have been researching the FRAME surname, which is quite prolific in
Lanarkshire. In the book, The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin,
Meaning and History, George F Black offered no explanation of the
surname origins other than to mention some individuals in early
records, the earliest of whom was chaplain Adam Frame 1495,
Commissiarot Records of Campsie and Lanark. Other references claim
uncertain origins, although one I recently received quoted the
following:

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.

About a month ago, I received a copy of an old letter written by a
Frame family member who was posted to Paris with NATO in the 1960s.
This person saw some old tombstones with the name 'De Framé' on them
near Deville [les-Rouen], and was told the De Framés had been (?Mena /
Mina, could not understand writing) squires near Caen. Speculation was
that the 'De' had been dropped from the name at the time of the
Napoleonic wars and that many Huguenot Frames had fled to Flanders and
Lanarkshire to escape religious persecution.

Still curious about the tombstones, I began searching for 'De Framé
records and found one on the Mormon site for the birth of an Adeliza
De Frame in Bosco, Normandy, France c1024, daughter of Osulf Fil
Frame. Browsing the Web, I came across many references to Osulf Fil
Frame (Lord Belvoir), son of Frane (also Lord Belvoir). It's possibly
a fanciful notion, but I began to ponder whether Osulf and his father
could possibly have been the source of the Frame surname origin and
it's variants Frean, Frayne, Frane, Frain, Frame, Fram etc.

Briefly, from what I understand of the genealogy, Osulf's daughter,
often referred to as Adela De Belvoir, married (1) William D'Aubigny
and (2) Robert De Toeni (also Lord Belvoir). Robert De Toeni and
Adela's daughter, Adeliza De Toeni married Roger Bigod. I am sure many
of you will be familiar with these lines so I won't go on too much
about them. Robert De Toeni, Osulf's son-in-law, appears to be
credited as the first Lord Belvoir, yet so many genealogies on the Web
have Osulf as Lord Belvoir. Would Robert De Toeni have become Lord
Belvoir in Adela's right, after the death of her father? Or were there
perhaps two (? Houses) of Belvoir?

I found this reference to Osulf Fil Frane on the Internet:

Volumes 1 & 2 A GENERAL INTRODUCTION TO DOMESDAY BOOK
by Sir Henry Ellis

Vol 2 page 395 TOR Linc. 343 b.Homo Episcopi Baiocensis (Man of
Bishop)
Bishop Odo of Baieux, Uterine Brother to Wm the Conqueror
Vol 2 page 198 OSULF Hertf. 138 bis. Buck. 149. Bedf.
215 ter. Osulf filius Frane Teignus (Osulf son of Frane Baron)
Vol 2 page 364 Osulf Yorksh. 316 b. He had the same land
previous to the Survey, which he now held as an under-tenant
to Gilbert de Laci
Vol 2 page 112 FRANE Yorks. fillius Tor (son of Tor)
Vol 2 page 112 Frane et frater (brother)
Vol 2 page 267 Wiga Homo Soulfi, fillii, Frane (sister)

Whilst the above records refer to Osulf as Osulf filius Frane, there
are many others recorded as Osulf Fil Frame. His father Frane is
referred to as a Baron above, and his grandfather named as Tor.

After attempting to digest this information and exploring further, I
became confused with what seems to be two prominent Osulfs in the same
time-frame. The one mentioned above I imagine would have been an ally
of William the Conqueror, and the another, Osulf son of Eadulf of the
House of Bamburgh, who held Northumbria under Morcar, a foe...unless he
changed allegiance. I presumed the second Osulf would have been the
thegn to Edward the Confessor, but it is difficult for the mere
beginner to determine. Sometimes there seems to be an overlap that I
could be misinterpreting i.e.
Horninghold
Victoria County History Publication: A History of the County of
Leicestershire: Volume 5 Year published: 1964 Supporting documents:
Note on abbreviations
Pages: 153-57Citation: 'Horninghold', A History of the County of
Leicestershire: Volume 5: Gartree Hundred (1964), pp. 153-57.

....MANOR.
Before the Conquest HORNINGHOLD was one of a group of estates
apparently held by four thegns, Osulf, Osmund, Roulf, and Levrick. In
1086 the vill was said to be held by Robert de Todeni, lord of
Belvoir, (fn. 14) though it may have been given before this date to
Robert's priory of Belvoir, which had been founded in 1076. (fn. 15)
At the beginning of the 12th century it was farmed by William
D'Aubigny. (fn. 16) Horninghold formed part of the original endowment
of the priory and remained in its possession until the Dissolution.
(fn. 17) It was confirmed to the priory at various times during the
Middle Ages. (fn. 18)

And this reference in Domesday Book and Beyond: Three Essays in the
Early History of
England
by F.W. Maitland

'...Therefore let us look at two Hertfordshire
villages. In one of them there is a manerium which Ralph Basset
holds of Robert of Ouilly.(27*) It has been rated at 4, but is
now rated at 2 hides. There is land for 4 teams. In demesne are 2
teams; and 3 1/2 villani with 2 sokemen of 1 hide and 5 bordarii
have 2 teams. There are 1 cottager and 1 serf and a mill of 10
shillings and meadow for 3 teams. It is now worth £3; in King
Edward's day it was worth £5. Now here, we say, is a pretty
little manor of the common kind. Let us then explore its past
history. 'Five sokemen held this manor.' Yes, we say, before the
Conquest this manor was held in physically undivided shares by
five lords. Their shares were small and they were humble people;
but still they had a manor. But let us read further. 'Two of them
were the men of Brihtric and held 1 1/2 hides; other two were the
men of Osulf the son of Frane and held 1 1/2 hides; and the fifth
was the man of Eadmer Atule and held a hide.'

As I said, this is all very new territory for me, and I have gotten
myself into a right muddle trying to figure it out! Was Osulf son of
Frane the thegn to Edward the Confessor, or was it Osulf of the House
of Bamburgh or were they one and the same? I am also very confused as
to whether there were two Belvoirs or one. I would really appreciate
some clarity on this situation if possible.

I am also seeking opinion on whether the FRAME surname usage could
possibly be attributed to Osulf Fil Frame/Frane and whether his
descendants could have been the source of the name spread to Scotland.
Slightly off-topic, but still relating to this question is the strange
phenomenon that FRAME, HAMILTON and SCRUGGS (originally De Scrogges)
are consistently matching with genetic testing. Such results imply
that different members of closely related families took either the
Hamilton, Frame or Scruggs surname when surnames came into common use
in Lowland Scotland. The De Scrogges surname first appeared in 1208 in
Peeblesshire in the Scottish Borders, and of course Hamilton is very
strong in Scotland from the late 13th century, but Frame is absent
from the records until 1495, even though genetic evidence indicates
they were there possibly 200-300 years earlier. The haplogroup that
these matching families belong to is I1a which has its roots in
northern France and is also in Scandinavian populations. Thus, I
suspect the early ancestry is probably Norse/Norman.

I thank you for your patience in reading this. As I said, I do need
guidance as I am at a loss to work out whether I have inadvertently
stumbled across something that might be significant to our FRAME
family research, or whether I am very wrong for even considering this
theory. However, the surname usage had to begin somewhere and I am
afraid to walk away from this without sound advice in case it is
important. I have no grand illusions and simply seek an honest opinion
as to whether I should persevere or desist. I will be truly grateful
for any advice you care to share.

Julie Frame Falk
NSW Australia

Matt Tompkins

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 12 feb 2007 12:23:13

An interesting query, Julie. I'm away from the office (and library)
for a few days, but I have a couple of useful reference works here at
home, so I can provide some kind of answer.

I have been researching the FRAME surname, which is quite prolific in
Lanarkshire. In the book, The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin,
Meaning and History, George F Black offered no explanation of the
surname origins other than to mention some individuals in early
records, the earliest of whom was chaplain Adam Frame 1495,
Commissiarot Records of Campsie and Lanark. Other references claim
uncertain origins, although one I recently received quoted the
following:

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.

I wonder where that came from - Bardsley's Dictionary of English Welsh
Surnames, perhaps? The derivation of Frame from OE frem may be right,
but it's interesting that he regards Frayne and Frame as the same name
- other authorities do not. Reaney and Wilson, for example, treat
them as separate names, with derivations as follows:

1. Fram, Frame derives from an Old English (ie Anglo-Saxon) word
'fram', meaning 'bold, active, strong'. In the Middle English period,
when surnames came into use, this was both a personal name and a word,
so it may have become a surname as either a patronym (where a father's
personal name becomes his son's surname) or a nickname. Reaney and
Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

2. Frain, Frane, Frayne, de Freyne derives from an Old French word
fraisne, fresne, meaning ash-tree (modern French frene, with a
circumflex), and is generally supposed to have been a topographic
surname meaning someone who dwelt by an ash-tree. The examples quoted
by ?Bardsley, all with 'le', suggest otherwise, but the name usually
appears in the records as 'de' or 'del', which combined with the name
of a tree makes a topographic origin almost certain. (There is a
faint possibility that it relates to one of several places in Frances
with names like Fresnay, but they probably gave rise to surnames like
Franey, Freney.)

Topographic names using OFr words are interesting - were they formed
in France and brought to England by migration, or were they formed in
England by a Franglais-speaking population? Some French words entered
the English language, so surnames formed with them probably originated
in England, but we still call an ash an ash, not a frane, so there
must be some uncertainty with Frane, Freyne.


About a month ago, I received a copy of an old letter written by a
Frame family member who was posted to Paris with NATO in the 1960s.
This person saw some old tombstones with the name 'De Framé' on
themnear Deville [les-Rouen], and was told the De Framés had been (?
Mena /Mina, could not understand writing) squires near Caen.
Speculation wasthat the 'De' had been dropped from the name at the
time of theNapoleonic wars and that many Huguenot Frames had fled to
Flanders and Lanarkshire to escape religious persecution.

The occurrence of Frame as a personal name and surname in England ever
since the 12th century must exclude a Huguenot origin (French
protestants did not start fleeing to England until the 16th and 17th
centuries).


Still curious about the tombstones, I began searching for 'De Framé
records and found one on the Mormon site for the birth of an Adeliza
De Frame in Bosco, Normandy, France c1024, daughter of Osulf Fil
Frame. Browsing the Web, I came across many references to Osulf Fil
Frame (Lord Belvoir), son of Frane (also Lord Belvoir). It's possibly
a fanciful notion, but I began to ponder whether Osulf and his father
could possibly have been the source of the Frame surname origin and
it's variants Frean, Frayne, Frane, Frain, Frame, Fram etc.

<large snip>

I am also seeking opinion on whether the FRAME surname usage could
possibly be attributed to Osulf Fil Frame/Frane and whether his
descendants could have been the source of the name spread to .
Scotland


I won't try to disentangle all the references to Anglo-Saxon Osulfs
which you have found, except to say that Osulf was not an uncommon
name and they are unlikely all to have been the same man.

It must also be unlikely that the Frani who was Osulf's father, or any
other Frani (there seem to have been several of them), was the
ancestor of the modern Frames, because patronymic surnames did not
become hereditary until much later, in the 13th and 14th centuries, or
even later. In fact I think it is safe to say that there is no
patronym formed from an Anglo-Saxon personal name which can be shown
to have begun with an Anglo-Saxon living at the time of the Conquest.
There are of course a number of patronyms formed from Anglo-Saxon
personal names, but these are names which were still in use among the
English population at the time when patronymic surnames were adopted
and became hereditary.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

Genie

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 13 feb 2007 04:22:45

On Feb 12, 10:23 pm, "Matt Tompkins" <m...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
An interesting query, Julie. I'm away from the office (and library)
for a few days, but I have a couple of useful reference works here at
home, so I can provide some kind of answer.





I have been researching the FRAME surname, which is quite prolific in
Lanarkshire. In the book, The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin,
Meaning and History, George F Black offered no explanation of the
surname origins other than to mention some individuals in early
records, the earliest of whom was chaplain Adam Frame 1495,
Commissiarot Records of Campsie and Lanark. Other references claim
uncertain origins, although one I recently received quoted the
following:

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.

I wonder where that came from - Bardsley's Dictionary of English Welsh
Surnames, perhaps? The derivation of Frame from OE frem may be right,
but it's interesting that he regards Frayne and Frame as the same name
- other authorities do not. Reaney and Wilson, for example, treat
them as separate names, with derivations as follows:

1. Fram, Frame derives from an Old English (ie Anglo-Saxon) word
'fram', meaning 'bold, active, strong'. In the Middle English period,
when surnames came into use, this was both a personal name and a word,
so it may have become a surname as either a patronym (where a father's
personal name becomes his son's surname) or a nickname. Reaney and
Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

2. Frain, Frane, Frayne, de Freyne derives from an Old French word
fraisne, fresne, meaning ash-tree (modern French frene, with a
circumflex), and is generally supposed to have been a topographic
surname meaning someone who dwelt by an ash-tree. The examples quoted
by ?Bardsley, all with 'le', suggest otherwise, but the name usually
appears in the records as 'de' or 'del', which combined with the name
of a tree makes a topographic origin almost certain. (There is a
faint possibility that it relates to one of several places in Frances
with names like Fresnay, but they probably gave rise to surnames like
Franey, Freney.)

Topographic names using OFr words are interesting - were they formed
in France and brought to England by migration, or were they formed in
England by a Franglais-speaking population? Some French words entered
the English language, so surnames formed with them probably originated
in England, but we still call an ash an ash, not a frane, so there
must be some uncertainty with Frane, Freyne.

About a month ago, I received a copy of an old letter written by a
Frame family member who was posted to Paris with NATO in the 1960s.
This person saw some old tombstones with the name 'De Framé' on
themnear Deville [les-Rouen], and was told the De Framés had been (?
Mena /Mina, could not understand writing) squires near Caen.
Speculation wasthat the 'De' had been dropped from the name at the
time of theNapoleonic wars and that many Huguenot Frames had fled to
Flanders and Lanarkshire to escape religious persecution.

The occurrence of Frame as a personal name and surname in England ever
since the 12th century must exclude a Huguenot origin (French
protestants did not start fleeing to England until the 16th and 17th
centuries).

Still curious about the tombstones, I began searching for 'De Framé
records and found one on the Mormon site for the birth of an Adeliza
De Frame in Bosco, Normandy, France c1024, daughter of Osulf Fil
Frame. Browsing the Web, I came across many references to Osulf Fil
Frame (Lord Belvoir), son of Frane (also Lord Belvoir). It's possibly
a fanciful notion, but I began to ponder whether Osulf and his father
could possibly have been the source of the Frame surname origin and
it's variants Frean, Frayne, Frane, Frain, Frame, Fram etc.

large snip

I am also seeking opinion on whether the FRAME surname usage could
possibly be attributed to Osulf Fil Frame/Frane and whether his
descendants could have been the source of the name spread to .
Scotland

I won't try to disentangle all the references to Anglo-Saxon Osulfs
which you have found, except to say that Osulf was not an uncommon
name and they are unlikely all to have been the same man.

It must also be unlikely that the Frani who was Osulf's father, or any
other Frani (there seem to have been several of them), was the
ancestor of the modern Frames, because patronymic surnames did not
become hereditary until much later, in the 13th and 14th centuries, or
even later. In fact I think it is safe to say that there is no
patronym formed from an Anglo-Saxon personal name which can be shown
to have begun with an Anglo-Saxon living at the time of the Conquest.
There are of course a number of patronyms formed from Anglo-Saxon
personal names, but these are names which were still in use among the
English population at the time when patronymic surnames were adopted
and became hereditary.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Genie

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 13 feb 2007 04:26:45

On Feb 12, 10:23 pm, "Matt Tompkins" <m...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
An interesting query, Julie. I'm away from the office (and library)
for a few days, but I have a couple of useful reference works here at
home, so I can provide some kind of answer.





I have been researching the FRAME surname, which is quite prolific in
Lanarkshire. In the book, The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin,
Meaning and History, George F Black offered no explanation of the
surname origins other than to mention some individuals in early
records, the earliest of whom was chaplain Adam Frame 1495,
Commissiarot Records of Campsie and Lanark. Other references claim
uncertain origins, although one I recently received quoted the
following:

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.

I wonder where that came from - Bardsley's Dictionary of English Welsh
Surnames, perhaps? The derivation of Frame from OE frem may be right,
but it's interesting that he regards Frayne and Frame as the same name
- other authorities do not. Reaney and Wilson, for example, treat
them as separate names, with derivations as follows:

1. Fram, Frame derives from an Old English (ie Anglo-Saxon) word
'fram', meaning 'bold, active, strong'. In the Middle English period,
when surnames came into use, this was both a personal name and a word,
so it may have become a surname as either a patronym (where a father's
personal name becomes his son's surname) or a nickname. Reaney and
Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

2. Frain, Frane, Frayne, de Freyne derives from an Old French word
fraisne, fresne, meaning ash-tree (modern French frene, with a
circumflex), and is generally supposed to have been a topographic
surname meaning someone who dwelt by an ash-tree. The examples quoted
by ?Bardsley, all with 'le', suggest otherwise, but the name usually
appears in the records as 'de' or 'del', which combined with the name
of a tree makes a topographic origin almost certain. (There is a
faint possibility that it relates to one of several places in Frances
with names like Fresnay, but they probably gave rise to surnames like
Franey, Freney.)

Topographic names using OFr words are interesting - were they formed
in France and brought to England by migration, or were they formed in
England by a Franglais-speaking population? Some French words entered
the English language, so surnames formed with them probably originated
in England, but we still call an ash an ash, not a frane, so there
must be some uncertainty with Frane, Freyne.

About a month ago, I received a copy of an old letter written by a
Frame family member who was posted to Paris with NATO in the 1960s.
This person saw some old tombstones with the name 'De Framé' on
themnear Deville [les-Rouen], and was told the De Framés had been (?
Mena /Mina, could not understand writing) squires near Caen.
Speculation wasthat the 'De' had been dropped from the name at the
time of theNapoleonic wars and that many Huguenot Frames had fled to
Flanders and Lanarkshire to escape religious persecution.

The occurrence of Frame as a personal name and surname in England ever
since the 12th century must exclude a Huguenot origin (French
protestants did not start fleeing to England until the 16th and 17th
centuries).

Still curious about the tombstones, I began searching for 'De Framé
records and found one on the Mormon site for the birth of an Adeliza
De Frame in Bosco, Normandy, France c1024, daughter of Osulf Fil
Frame. Browsing the Web, I came across many references to Osulf Fil
Frame (Lord Belvoir), son of Frane (also Lord Belvoir). It's possibly
a fanciful notion, but I began to ponder whether Osulf and his father
could possibly have been the source of the Frame surname origin and
it's variants Frean, Frayne, Frane, Frain, Frame, Fram etc.

large snip

I am also seeking opinion on whether the FRAME surname usage could
possibly be attributed to Osulf Fil Frame/Frane and whether his
descendants could have been the source of the name spread to .
Scotland

I won't try to disentangle all the references to Anglo-Saxon Osulfs
which you have found, except to say that Osulf was not an uncommon
name and they are unlikely all to have been the same man.

It must also be unlikely that the Frani who was Osulf's father, or any
other Frani (there seem to have been several of them), was the
ancestor of the modern Frames, because patronymic surnames did not
become hereditary until much later, in the 13th and 14th centuries, or
even later. In fact I think it is safe to say that there is no
patronym formed from an Anglo-Saxon personal name which can be shown
to have begun with an Anglo-Saxon living at the time of the Conquest.
There are of course a number of patronyms formed from Anglo-Saxon
personal names, but these are names which were still in use among the
English population at the time when patronymic surnames were adopted
and became hereditary.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Matt

I can't believe my blunder of a mere century at the close of my last
message!!!
It should have read 130 years!!

(3) Thanks to you, I now have a Geoffrey Frame in East Anglia in 1196 - Evidence of our surname just 30 years after the Conquest.

Apologies all!

Julie Frame Falk

Genie

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 13 feb 2007 05:49:26

On Feb 12, 10:23 pm, "Matt Tompkins" <m...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
An interesting query, Julie. I'm away from the office (and library)
for a few days, but I have a couple of useful reference works here at
home, so I can provide some kind of answer.





I have been researching the FRAME surname, which is quite prolific in
Lanarkshire. In the book, The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin,
Meaning and History, George F Black offered no explanation of the
surname origins other than to mention some individuals in early
records, the earliest of whom was chaplain Adam Frame 1495,
Commissiarot Records of Campsie and Lanark. Other references claim
uncertain origins, although one I recently received quoted the
following:

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.

I wonder where that came from - Bardsley's Dictionary of English Welsh
Surnames, perhaps? The derivation of Frame from OE frem may be right,
but it's interesting that he regards Frayne and Frame as the same name
- other authorities do not. Reaney and Wilson, for example, treat
them as separate names, with derivations as follows:

1. Fram, Frame derives from an Old English (ie Anglo-Saxon) word
'fram', meaning 'bold, active, strong'. In the Middle English period,
when surnames came into use, this was both a personal name and a word,
so it may have become a surname as either a patronym (where a father's
personal name becomes his son's surname) or a nickname. Reaney and
Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

2. Frain, Frane, Frayne, de Freyne derives from an Old French word
fraisne, fresne, meaning ash-tree (modern French frene, with a
circumflex), and is generally supposed to have been a topographic
surname meaning someone who dwelt by an ash-tree. The examples quoted
by ?Bardsley, all with 'le', suggest otherwise, but the name usually
appears in the records as 'de' or 'del', which combined with the name
of a tree makes a topographic origin almost certain. (There is a
faint possibility that it relates to one of several places in Frances
with names like Fresnay, but they probably gave rise to surnames like
Franey, Freney.)

Topographic names using OFr words are interesting - were they formed
in France and brought to England by migration, or were they formed in
England by a Franglais-speaking population? Some French words entered
the English language, so surnames formed with them probably originated
in England, but we still call an ash an ash, not a frane, so there
must be some uncertainty with Frane, Freyne.

About a month ago, I received a copy of an old letter written by a
Frame family member who was posted to Paris with NATO in the 1960s.
This person saw some old tombstones with the name 'De Framé' on
themnear Deville [les-Rouen], and was told the De Framés had been (?
Mena /Mina, could not understand writing) squires near Caen.
Speculation wasthat the 'De' had been dropped from the name at the
time of theNapoleonic wars and that many Huguenot Frames had fled to
Flanders and Lanarkshire to escape religious persecution.

The occurrence of Frame as a personal name and surname in England ever
since the 12th century must exclude a Huguenot origin (French
protestants did not start fleeing to England until the 16th and 17th
centuries).

Still curious about the tombstones, I began searching for 'De Framé
records and found one on the Mormon site for the birth of an Adeliza
De Frame in Bosco, Normandy, France c1024, daughter of Osulf Fil
Frame. Browsing the Web, I came across many references to Osulf Fil
Frame (Lord Belvoir), son of Frane (also Lord Belvoir). It's possibly
a fanciful notion, but I began to ponder whether Osulf and his father
could possibly have been the source of the Frame surname origin and
it's variants Frean, Frayne, Frane, Frain, Frame, Fram etc.

large snip

I am also seeking opinion on whether the FRAME surname usage could
possibly be attributed to Osulf Fil Frame/Frane and whether his
descendants could have been the source of the name spread to .
Scotland

I won't try to disentangle all the references to Anglo-Saxon Osulfs
which you have found, except to say that Osulf was not an uncommon
name and they are unlikely all to have been the same man.

It must also be unlikely that the Frani who was Osulf's father, or any
other Frani (there seem to have been several of them), was the
ancestor of the modern Frames, because patronymic surnames did not
become hereditary until much later, in the 13th and 14th centuries, or
even later. In fact I think it is safe to say that there is no
patronym formed from an Anglo-Saxon personal name which can be shown
to have begun with an Anglo-Saxon living at the time of the Conquest.
There are of course a number of patronyms formed from Anglo-Saxon
personal names, but these are names which were still in use among the
English population at the time when patronymic surnames were adopted
and became hereditary.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Matt

Thank you. I do appreciate your response.

Frean, Frayne, Frame, - Nick. 'the frem,' or 'fren,' i.e. the
stranger. 'Frem, strange, foreign, unknown': Halliwell. 'Frenne, a
stranger, an aliene, a forraine, a frenne. Florio, p.19' (Halliwell);
cf. Strange.
Robert le Freyne, co. Bucks, 1273. A.
William le Freyne, co. Bucks, ibid.
Stephen le Fren, co. Somerset, ibid.
William le Freyner, co. Linc, ibid.
I wonder where that came from - Bardsley's Dictionary of English Welsh
Surnames, perhaps? The derivation of Frame from OE frem may be right,
but it's interesting that he regards Frayne and Frame as the same name
- other authorities do not.

Unfortunately, I was not able to find the source Matt. I was sent a
copied page from a book (p. 299). When I checked with the sender, she
could not remember where she acquired it. It is the first time I have
seen this combination of the surnames, and was struck by it due to my
interest in Osulf fil Frame/Frane and his father Frane. Another
description I was sent included this:
From Swyrich Corp:
'The FRAME family name is derived from the ancient Anglo-Saxon culture

of Britain. The name originated with an early member who was a person
considered 'brave and vigorous'. The surname Frame originally derived
from the Old English word Fram which referred to a vigorous quality.
The surname Frame belongs to a broad and miscellaneous class of
surnames: Nickname surnames referred to a characteristic of the first
person who used the name. They can describe the bearer's favored
style of clothing, appearance, habits, or character. Spelling
variations include: Frame, Fram, Frahm, Frayme, Fraym, Fraim, Fraime
and others. The name was first found in Suffolk where they held a
family seat from early times.'

I was sceptical at this description as I believe it probably came with
a purchased coat of arms, but I contacted the College of Arms in
London to see if I could discover anything about the Frames in
Suffolk. The very kind Richmond Herald replied thus:

"From: (Name), Richmond Herald
College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4BT
Tel: 020 7236 9612

Dear Mrs Falk,

Thank you for your e-mail of 21 October addressed to the College of
Arms.

I have carried out a brief search in the College's records but can
find no
coat of arms registered here for any family named Frame. Nor is there
any
entry for a family of the name in Burke's General Armory (1884), which
lists
a great many coats of arms that have been informally adopted by the
families
concerned. I have also consulted Joan Corder's Dictionary of Suffolk
Arms
(1965) and Dictionary of Suffolk Crests (1998) - comprehensive guides
to
local armorial usage - without finding any reference to a family of
Frame.

I am sorry to have to send such a negative answer."

I was not sorry to receive this reply from the Richmond Herald, as it
validated my own thoughts at the time. However, since then, Osulf Fil
Frame keeps crossing my path one way or another and keeps me
pondering. I began to question whether there might still have been a
Frame connection with Suffolk when I saw that Roger Bigod, the husband
of Odulf's granddaughter Adeliza de Toeni, "obtained Framlingham in
Suffolk as a gift from the Crown. Roger established a dynasty which
dominated East Anglia from the 1140s, as earls of Norfolk, until
1306." [Who's Who in Early Medieval England, Christopher Tyerman,
Shepheard-Walwyn, Ltd., London,1996]

You quote:
Reaney and Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

I have not seen Reany and Wilson's book so these early Frames are of
great interest to me, particularly Geoffrey Frame in 1196 in East
Anglia. Admittedly, it is a tenuous thread at best to working out
whether the usage of the Frame name was somehow derived from Osulf fil
Frame/Frane, but still difficult to banish completely from my mind.

The occurrence of Frame as a personal name and surname in England ever
since the 12th century must exclude a Huguenot origin (French
protestants did not start fleeing to England until the 16th and 17th
centuries).

Agreed

In fact I think it is safe to say that there is no
patronym formed from an Anglo-Saxon personal name which can be shown
to have begun with an Anglo-Saxon living at the time of the Conquest.
There are of course a number of patronyms formed from Anglo-Saxon
personal names, but these are names which were still in use among the
English population at the time when patronymic surnames were adopted
and became hereditary.

I will keep mulling this over a while longer Matt. Realistically, what
I now have is:
(1) A birth recorded on the Mormon site for an Adeliza de Frame c.1024
in Bosco, Normandy - dau. of Osulf fil Frame/Frane ( son of Frane)
(Boscum Guillelmi or Bosco Willelmi, later became Bois-Guillaume)
(2) I have a first hand account of old tombstones with the name De
Framé at Deville-les Rouen, a few miles from Bois-Guillaume
(3) Thanks to you, I now have a Geoffrey Frame in East Anglia in 1196
- Evidence of our surname just 30 years after the Conquest.

Thank you again Matt, I really appreciate you taking the time to help
a 'medieval novice' and senior citizen who wants to learn as much as
she can about the early Frame surname history while she is still able!

Regards
Julie Frame Falk

NOTE: This reply to Matt Tompkins did not come through in the digest
although my post concerning the gaff did. I will send again and hope
it doesn't appear twice. I have obviously done something wrong with
posting the reply.

Matt Tompkins

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 14 feb 2007 13:45:08

On 13 Feb, 04:49, "Genie" <j...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
validated my own thoughts at the time. However, since then, Osulf Fil
Frame keeps crossing my path one way or another and keeps me
pondering. I began to question whether there might still have been a
Frame connection with Suffolk when I saw that Roger Bigod, the husband
of Odulf's granddaughter Adeliza de Toeni, "obtained Framlingham in
Suffolk as a gift from the Crown. Roger established a dynasty which
dominated East Anglia from the 1140s, as earls of Norfolk, until
1306." [Who's Who in Early Medieval England, Christopher Tyerman,
Shepheard-Walwyn, Ltd., London,1996]

snip

I will keep mulling this over a while longer Matt. Realistically, what
I now have is:
(1) A birth recorded on the Mormon site for an Adeliza de Frame c.1024
in Bosco, Normandy - dau. of Osulf fil Frame/Frane ( son of Frane)
(Boscum Guillelmi or Bosco Willelmi, later became Bois-Guillaume)
(2) I have a first hand account of old tombstones with the name De
Framé at Deville-les Rouen, a few miles from Bois-Guillaume
(3) Thanks to you, I now have a Geoffrey Frame in East Anglia in 1196
- Evidence of our surname just 130 years after the Conquest.


Dear Julie,

I can see how you might be tempted to link those various snippets of
information, but they do all need to be treated with care.

Framlingham is a place-name meaning 'the ham [or home] of the people
of Framela', or some name similar to that. Framela would have been an
Anglo-Saxon living several centuries before the Norman Conquest, and
we know of his existence only from the place-name. If centuries later
a place of this name were granted to the husband of a grand-daughter
of a man called Frame that could never be relevant to the surname
Frame, which cannot have originated before the 12th century at the
earliest. (There is a place in Norfolk called Framingham, presumably
once the home of the people of a man called Fram, and a few other
place-names may also incorporate the personal name Fram or Frame, but
they equally irrelevant, for the same reason.)

In any event Osulf's father was probably called Frani or Frane, not
Frame (as far as I can tell the spelling in -m- is an invention of
modern genealogists). But even if he had been called Frame, it
remains extremely improbable that any modern person surnamed Frame is
descended from him, simply because few, if any, patronymic surnames
began with people living in the 11th century. Patronyms (and most
surnames) only became hereditary much later, and the modern surname
Frame would have began with other later individuals called Frame (or
possibly nicknamed Frame), probably 13th-century peasants. It is
unlikely that we will ever know who the first Frames were.

As Will Johnson has pointed out, the reference in the Mormon site to
Robert de Tosni's wife as Adeliza de Frame, daughter of Osulf filius
Frame, is not in itself a reliable source. However I will leave it to
those who specialise in that kind of thing to comment on whether
Robert de Tosni really did marry a daughter of Osulf filius Frani,
whether she really was called 'de Frame', and whether they left any
descendants surnamed Frame, and just point out that (i) if Adeliza was
born in Normandy in 1024, four decades before the Norman Conquest,
then she can hardly have been the daughter of an Anglo-Saxon thegn and
(ii) 'filius Frani' is a patronymic surname, and 'de Frame' is a
toponymic one - that is to say, Osulf was surnamed 'son of Frani' and
Adeliza was surnamed 'of a place called Frame'. She could not have
derived a toponymic surname from her grandfather's personal name.

Even the reference to Geoffrey Frame in East Anglia in 1196 has to be
treated with caution - at such an early date there is no certainty
that his surname was hereditary. It is quite possible that his sons
had some other surname - perhaps Geoffrey (or Jeffs or Jefferson)
after their father, or they could have taken some other surname, from
their occupation, perhaps, or where they lived, or a nickname
describing some personal characteristic.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but the fact is that most English
surnames originated in a period from which insufficient records have
survived to enable us to identify their originators genealogically,
and we have to satisfy ourselves with purely etymological
explanations.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

Matt Tompkins

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 14 feb 2007 16:02:19

Dear Julie,

I've just been looking at the distribution of the surname Frame in the
1881 census and I see that it was an overwhelmingly Lanarkshire name -
out of 1908 Frames in the country 1,184 (62%) lived in Lanarkshire and
1,550 (81%) in central Scotland. No other county had more than 100,
and there were none at all in Norfolk and Suffolk (and only one in
Devon and Cornwall). Given that the surname has been present in
Lanarkshire since at least 1495 it must be very probable that it
originated locally, in or near Lanarkshire.

I can't claim to know much about the development of surnames in the
English-speaking Scottish Lowlands, but I assume it took much the same
course as in the adjacent parts of England (which were culturally
similar). Surnames became hereditary in northeast England a little
later than in more southerly parts, broadly in the 13th-15th
centuries, so it seems likely that the man called (or nicknamed) Frame
from whom the Lanarkshire family took their name was living some time
during those centuries.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

Genie

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 15 feb 2007 05:08:07

On Feb 15, 2:02 am, "Matt Tompkins" <m...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
Dear Julie,

I've just been looking at the distribution of the surname Frame in the
1881 census and I see that it was an overwhelmingly Lanarkshire name -
out of 1908 Frames in the country 1,184 (62%) lived in Lanarkshire and
1,550 (81%) in central Scotland. No other county had more than 100,
and there were none at all in Norfolk and Suffolk (and only one in
Devon and Cornwall). Given that the surname has been present in
Lanarkshire since at least 1495 it must be very probable that it
originated locally, in or near Lanarkshire.

I can't claim to know much about the development of surnames in the
English-speaking Scottish Lowlands, but I assume it took much the same
course as in the adjacent parts of England (which were culturally
similar). Surnames became hereditary in northeast England a little
later than in more southerly parts, broadly in the 13th-15th
centuries, so it seems likely that the man called (or nicknamed) Frame
from whom the Lanarkshire family took their name was living some time
during those centuries.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins

Matt
Thank you so much for your time and effort. You have given me exactly
the kind of information I needed. It has been an interesting diversion
from my usual genealogical research, and was rather strange how those
various snippets of information kept lining up.... 2 + 2 looked like
they could have made a rather interesting 4! I will now try to quell
that little voice in my head that keeps asking, 'But what
if??'....hopefully it will fade away soon!
My sincere appreciation Matt
Best regards
Julie Frame Falk

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