? Comyn wife of Malise

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grothenwell

? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 11 feb 2007 12:43:07

Can you help clear up a bit of a mystery please. Regarding the wife of
Malise (6th or 7th Earl of Strathearn), who was issue of Alexander
Comyn and Elizabeth de Quincy, (or possibly Alexander's father William
and Marjory Countess of Buchan)

In previous posts here I have seen Marjory Comyn used as the name of
the wife of Malise; however

In "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan Young
1997; he names Emma Comyn as wife of Malise.(he has another daughter
Marjorie marrying Patrick Earl of Dunbar)
In "Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig" by Donald M
McIntosh 1998; he names Egidia Comyn as wife.
In "Robert Bruce, Our Most Valiant Prince, King & Lord" by Colm
McNamee 2006; he names Agnes Comyn (a 1320 conspirator), as wife.

I realise there probably won't be a definitive answer, but thought it
was worth opening to debate.

Thank you,

Grothenwell

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 11 feb 2007 14:43:46

In message of 11 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you help clear up a bit of a mystery please. Regarding the wife of
Malise (6th or 7th Earl of Strathearn), who was issue of Alexander
Comyn and Elizabeth de Quincy, (or possibly Alexander's father William
and Marjory Countess of Buchan)

In previous posts here I have seen Marjory Comyn used as the name of
the wife of Malise; however

In "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan Young
1997; he names Emma Comyn as wife of Malise.(he has another daughter
Marjorie marrying Patrick Earl of Dunbar)
In "Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig" by Donald M
McIntosh 1998; he names Egidia Comyn as wife.
In "Robert Bruce, Our Most Valiant Prince, King & Lord" by Colm
McNamee 2006; he names Agnes Comyn (a 1320 conspirator), as wife.

I realise there probably won't be a definitive answer, but thought it
was worth opening to debate.

I can't debate this but can add a little more information. The rider to
this is that later information can only come in later books so it might
well be that one or more of the above three books, all published
recently, has better information than SP or CP.

SP (Scots Peerage) is the earliest published, in 1911 for the relevant
volume. In it they have a long paragraph on the subject of Malise's
(the 6th earl's) wife (SP, VIII, pp. 249-50):

"The only wife assigned to the Earl in any records is a lady named
Agnes, the statement that he married a Marjory [Comyn] being founded on
a misreading. Wyntoun states that Malise, Earl of Strathearn, married
the second daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, sister of John,
Earl of Buchan, and is is not improbable that Countess Agnes was she,
and that she was also the Countess of Strathearn who figured in the
Soulis conspiracy of 1320. If she were a Comyn, William Soulis, a
comparatively young man, would be her nephew, as he was the son of
Nicholas Soulis, one of the Competitors for the Crown of Scotland in
1290, who married Margaret Comyn, sufficient reasons for the Countess's
complicity in an attempt to set him on the throne. She is said to have
been imprisoned for life."

In CP (Complete Peerage) (XII/1, 383-4), published in 1953, they have
on Malise, 6th earl:

"He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."

There is no correction in CP's vol XIV of Corrigenda, nor is there in
Chris Phillips' CP Amendments site. Both these books have several
footnotes of references. Note the use in CP of 'said to be' meaning that
there are no contemporary documents to support this fact.

The interesting thing would be if any of these three modern volumes have
found some better evidence. Can you have a further look at them, and in
the light of the above, tell us if, and how, they correct it?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 11 feb 2007 17:46:18

On 11 Feb, 13:43, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 11 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:





Can you help clear up a bit of a mystery please. Regarding the wife of
Malise (6th or 7th Earl of Strathearn), who was issue of Alexander
Comyn and Elizabeth de Quincy, (or possibly Alexander's father William
and Marjory Countess of Buchan)

In previous posts here I have seen Marjory Comyn used as the name of
the wife of Malise; however

In "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan Young
1997; he names Emma Comyn as wife of Malise.(he has another daughter
Marjorie marrying Patrick Earl of Dunbar)
In "Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig" by Donald M
McIntosh 1998; he names Egidia Comyn as wife.
In "Robert Bruce, Our Most Valiant Prince, King & Lord" by Colm
McNamee 2006; he names Agnes Comyn (a 1320 conspirator), as wife.

I realise there probably won't be a definitive answer, but thought it
was worth opening to debate.

I can't debate this but can add a little more information.  The rider to
this is that later information can only come in later books so it might
well be that one or more of the above three books, all published
recently, has better information than SP or CP.

SP (Scots Peerage) is the earliest published, in 1911 for the relevant
volume.  In it they have a long paragraph on the subject of Malise's
(the 6th earl's) wife (SP, VIII, pp. 249-50):

  "The only wife assigned to the Earl in any records is a lady named
  Agnes, the statement that he married a Marjory [Comyn] being founded on
  a misreading.  Wyntoun states that Malise, Earl of Strathearn, married
  the second daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, sister of John,
  Earl of Buchan, and is is not improbable that Countess Agnes was she,
  and that she was also the Countess of Strathearn who figured in the
  Soulis conspiracy of 1320.  If she were a Comyn, William Soulis, a
  comparatively young man, would be her nephew, as he was the son of
  Nicholas Soulis, one of the Competitors for the Crown of Scotland in
  1290, who married Margaret Comyn, sufficient reasons for the Countess's
  complicity in an attempt to set him on the throne.  She is said to have
  been imprisoned for life."

In CP (Complete Peerage) (XII/1, 383-4), published in 1953, they have
on Malise, 6th earl:

  "He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
  (Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
  and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."

There is no correction in CP's vol XIV of Corrigenda, nor is there in
Chris Phillips' CP Amendments site.  Both these books have several
footnotes of references. Note the use in CP of 'said to be' meaning that
there are no contemporary documents to support this fact.

The interesting thing would be if any of these three modern volumes have
found some better evidence.  Can you have a further look at them, and in
the light of the above, tell us if, and how, they correct it?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          t...@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

At the moment I have access to two of the books. Young doesn't mention
Emma in the body text of his book, but she is shown in the gnealogical
family tree. Emma is actually shown in as (Emma) implying that her
name is not certain; other female siblings on the tree are (Marjorie)
m Patrick Earl of Dunbar, (Elizabeth) m Gilbert de Umphraville, Elena
(no parentheses) m William de Brechin and ? m Nicholas de Soules.
McNamee has taken the same tree from Young's book, but says he assumes
(Emma) and Agnes to be one and the same. His source on the conspiracy
is "M Penman's 'A fell coniuracioun agayn Robert the douchty king; the
Soules conspiracy of 1318-20', The Innes Review Vol 50 no. 1 (1999) pp
25-7".

Thank you Tim,

Grothenwell

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