Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother

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Tony Hoskins

Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 10 feb 2007 01:40:13

This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine, Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI (via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 10 feb 2007 04:42:35

On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine, Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI (via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562



see Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'Antiquite", (1991).

Doug

Leo van de Pas

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 10 feb 2007 05:46:46

Dear Doug,

Answering a question by quoting only a book is not really fair. That book is
in French, and it may be doubted that many have access to it. I just wish
that if you regard quoting this book as a reply, you had mentioned the page
number, so we can see what to look for..

After this grizzle, I am glad you made me look as I think I may have
interpreted Settipani wrongly.

Page 9 has a family tree with notes in between the tree and I think I
overlooked two minute dots implying uncertainty.... I think combined with
the dates I may have it wrong.

Emperor Leo VI 866-912 had by his mistress Zoe Zautzina (maitresse 881,
official concubine 893, Empress 898-899) a daughter Anna born about 889. and
now the French comes in "epouse (900) un prince franc infortune et cousin de
Berta", this Anna died circa 903.

So far so good. Settipani places a short line underneath a person and then
joins that little vertical line with a horizontal line to another person to
indicate marriage. The little vertical line for Anna is just two dots. Anna
is linked to "Ludovicus III empereur 901-905, aveugle 905." He lived circa
880 to 5 June 928. The offspring of this couple is Carolus Constantinus,
comte de Vienne born 901/3.

If Anna is the mother of Carolus Constantinus the possibility is implied she
was about 12 (ca.889 to 901) or up to 14 years old when she gave birth, and
died aged about 14.

Anna married a French prince "infortune" (unfortunate, unlucky) who was a
cousin of Berta. Was Ludovicus III unfortunate when, according to Settipani,
a year later he becomes Emperor? However he was unfortunate because "aveugle
905" tells he became blind (or was he blinded?) Ludovicus III was son of
Irmingardis who was a first cousin of "Berta de Tuscia", who I have recorded
as Berta of Lorraine, daughter of Lothar II, king of Lorraine, and she
married (2) Adalbert Markgraf of Tuscany, Count of Canossa.

-----------Settipani seems to say likely but uncertain. Siegfried Rosch in
his "Caroli Magni Progenies" page 128 seems to be certain that those links
are correct.
Kaiser Ludwig III 'Bosonides' born about 880, died 928. He was crowned
Emperor but four years later Berengar of Friaul attacks him and blinds him.
When in 924 Berengar was murdered, Ludwig III 'the blind' was not considered
to become emperor again.
He married twice (1) ca.900 Anna born 886..888, died before 914, daughter of
the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI and his second wife Zoe, daughter of Stylianus
Zautzes. He married (2) before 18 January 914 Adelheid daughter of King
Rodolfe I of Upper-Burgundy.
By each wife he had a son. The son by Anna is Karl Konstantin born about
901.

Settipani gives Anna died about 903, Rosch 'before 914'

Settipani says possible, Rosch says yes. Where can we go from here?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia





----- Original Message -----
From: <alden@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother


On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine, Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI (via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562



see Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'Antiquite", (1991).

Doug



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alden@mindspring.com

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 10 feb 2007 14:22:07

On Feb 9, 11:46 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Doug,

Answering a question by quoting only a book is not really fair. That book is
in French, and it may be doubted that many have access to it. I just wish
that if you regard quoting this book as a reply, you had mentioned the page
number, so we can see what to look for..

After this grizzle, I am glad you made me look as I think I may have
interpreted Settipani wrongly.

Page 9 has a family tree with notes in between the tree and I think I
overlooked two minute dots implying uncertainty.... I think combined with
the dates I may have it wrong.

Emperor Leo VI 866-912 had by his mistress Zoe Zautzina (maitresse 881,
official concubine 893, Empress 898-899) a daughter Anna born about 889. and
now the French comes in "epouse (900) un prince franc infortune et cousin de
Berta", this Anna died circa 903.

So far so good. Settipani places a short line underneath a person and then
joins that little vertical line with a horizontal line to another person to
indicate marriage. The little vertical line for Anna is just two dots. Anna
is linked to "Ludovicus III empereur 901-905, aveugle 905." He lived circa
880 to 5 June 928. The offspring of this couple is Carolus Constantinus,
comte de Vienne born 901/3.

If Anna is the mother of Carolus Constantinus the possibility is implied she
was about 12 (ca.889 to 901) or up to 14 years old when she gave birth, and
died aged about 14.

Anna married a French prince "infortune" (unfortunate, unlucky) who was a
cousin of Berta. Was Ludovicus III unfortunate when, according to Settipani,
a year later he becomes Emperor? However he was unfortunate because "aveugle
905" tells he became blind (or was he blinded?) Ludovicus III was son of
Irmingardis who was a first cousin of "Berta de Tuscia", who I have recorded
as Berta of Lorraine, daughter of Lothar II, king of Lorraine, and she
married (2) Adalbert Markgraf of Tuscany, Count of Canossa.

-----------Settipani seems to say likely but uncertain. Siegfried Rosch in
his "Caroli Magni Progenies" page 128 seems to be certain that those links
are correct.
Kaiser Ludwig III 'Bosonides' born about 880, died 928. He was crowned
Emperor but four years later Berengar of Friaul attacks him and blinds him.
When in 924 Berengar was murdered, Ludwig III 'the blind' was not considered
to become emperor again.
He married twice (1) ca.900 Anna born 886..888, died before 914, daughter of
the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI and his second wife Zoe, daughter of Stylianus
Zautzes. He married (2) before 18 January 914 Adelheid daughter of King
Rodolfe I of Upper-Burgundy.
By each wife he had a son. The son by Anna is Karl Konstantin born about
901.

Settipani gives Anna died about 903, Rosch 'before 914'

Settipani says possible, Rosch says yes. Where can we go from here?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <a...@mindspring.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother

On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine, Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI (via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

see Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'Antiquite", (1991).

Doug

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ok

See Settipani, Onamastique et Parente dans l'Occident Medieval, pps
22-23, 48, 183.

also Stewart Baldwin, post to SGM dated 1 nov 1996.

I have not seen anything to indicate that Ludwig III and Anna of
Byzantium are not the most likely parents of Charles Constantine.

Doug

Don Stone

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Don Stone » 10 feb 2007 17:35:20

Tony Hoskins wrote:
This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine, Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI (via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Tony,

You may be thinking of the fact that after the publication of _Nos
ancetres de l'Antiquite_ Settipani expressed doubts about the link with
native Egyptian pharaohs that he had suggested there, namely that
Atossa, wife of Darius I of Persia, was the daughter of Cyrus the Great
by Nitetis, daughter of Pharaoh Wahibre or Apries. It seems that Atossa
is more likely the daughter of Cyrus the Great by Cassandane, daughter
of Pharnaspes and Atossa. (Herodotus states that Atossa was a full
sister of her first husband Cambyses, who was a son of Cyrus and
Cassandane.)

-- Don Stone

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 feb 2007 01:26:53

<alden@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1171113726.962216.182550@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 11:46 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Doug,

Answering a question by quoting only a book is not really fair. That book
is
in French, and it may be doubted that many have access to it. I just wish
that if you regard quoting this book as a reply, you had mentioned the
page
number, so we can see what to look for..

After this grizzle, I am glad you made me look as I think I may have
interpreted Settipani wrongly.

Page 9 has a family tree with notes in between the tree and I think I
overlooked two minute dots implying uncertainty.... I think combined with
the dates I may have it wrong.

Emperor Leo VI 866-912 had by his mistress Zoe Zautzina (maitresse 881,
official concubine 893, Empress 898-899) a daughter Anna born about 889.
and
now the French comes in "epouse (900) un prince franc infortune et cousin
de
Berta", this Anna died circa 903.

So far so good. Settipani places a short line underneath a person and
then
joins that little vertical line with a horizontal line to another person
to
indicate marriage. The little vertical line for Anna is just two dots.
Anna
is linked to "Ludovicus III empereur 901-905, aveugle 905." He lived
circa
880 to 5 June 928. The offspring of this couple is Carolus Constantinus,
comte de Vienne born 901/3.

If Anna is the mother of Carolus Constantinus the possibility is implied
she
was about 12 (ca.889 to 901) or up to 14 years old when she gave birth,
and
died aged about 14.

Anna married a French prince "infortune" (unfortunate, unlucky) who was a
cousin of Berta. Was Ludovicus III unfortunate when, according to
Settipani,
a year later he becomes Emperor? However he was unfortunate because
"aveugle
905" tells he became blind (or was he blinded?) Ludovicus III was son of
Irmingardis who was a first cousin of "Berta de Tuscia", who I have
recorded
as Berta of Lorraine, daughter of Lothar II, king of Lorraine, and she
married (2) Adalbert Markgraf of Tuscany, Count of Canossa.

-----------Settipani seems to say likely but uncertain. Siegfried Rosch
in
his "Caroli Magni Progenies" page 128 seems to be certain that those
links
are correct.
Kaiser Ludwig III 'Bosonides' born about 880, died 928. He was crowned
Emperor but four years later Berengar of Friaul attacks him and blinds
him.
When in 924 Berengar was murdered, Ludwig III 'the blind' was not
considered
to become emperor again.
He married twice (1) ca.900 Anna born 886..888, died before 914, daughter
of
the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI and his second wife Zoe, daughter of
Stylianus
Zautzes. He married (2) before 18 January 914 Adelheid daughter of King
Rodolfe I of Upper-Burgundy.
By each wife he had a son. The son by Anna is Karl Konstantin born about
901.

Settipani gives Anna died about 903, Rosch 'before 914'

Settipani says possible, Rosch says yes. Where can we go from here?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <a...@mindspring.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother

On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine,
Count
of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of
Leo
VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to
the
truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI
(via
Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.

Thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

see Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'Antiquite", (1991).

Doug

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ok

See Settipani, Onamastique et Parente dans l'Occident Medieval, pps
22-23, 48, 183.

This is more useless than the first vague citation that Leo complained
about, and indeed misleading:

Pages 22-23 of the book in question are not even written by Settipani (one
of the co-editors) but by Donald Jackman, and contain to this purpose only a
loose assertion that "the later dukes of Lorraine descended from Sophie of
Bar's paternal aunt - a daughter of that Richilde, therefore, who descended
from the Folmars of Bliesgau and thus in all likelihood from Emperor Louis
the Blind and the Byzantine princess Anna".

Page 48 is just a table connected to the same paper byJackman illustrating
the purported "likely" descent, with a question mark as to the number of
generations involved.

Page 183 has two of three tables connected to a paper by Jean-Noel Mathieu,
the first showing Charles Constatin of Vienne as the son of Louis the Blind
by Anna, with no indication that this is merely speculation.

also Stewart Baldwin, post to SGM dated 1 nov 1996.

I have not seen anything to indicate that Ludwig III and Anna of
Byzantium are not the most likely parents of Charles Constantine.

Then you have evidently not seen my post to SGM dated 19 Nov 2004 copied
below.

I should add to this that the man's proper name was simply "Carolus", from
his Western imperial ancestor, as shown by a diploma of his father and his
own charters; he is called "Constantinus" in addition to this by Flodoard
copied later by Richer. If a second name had been conferred on him in order
to emphasise a Byzantine ancestry, first this would most probably NOT have
been "Constantinus" (since his purported Eastern imperial grandfather was
named Leo, and anyway the names Constant and Constantine were common enough
amongst Franks to make for a quite different set of associations in most
minds locally), and secondly one would expect in such circumtances to find
that the man himself and his own father would have used the dynastic name
pairing rather than ommitting the second element so that this comes down to
us only incidentally and from a couple of strangers writing elsewhere.

The stronger likelihood seems to me that Charles was the son of an unknown
concubine, whose family used the second name Constantine (by which he could
be identified as from a bastard lineage, as Richer tells us), and perhaps
held possessions and influence in Vienne, explaining his comparative scrap
of rights from his paternal ancestry.

The name Constantia that appeared in the comital family of Provence is not
the direct feminine of Constnatinus - this would obviously be Constantina -
and was only used for females in descent from this later original, who is
sometimes held to be a daughter or sister of Charles Constantine: however,
the male name "Constant", or "Constantine" for that matter, does not occur
as might be expected if this had any kind of dynastic significance tracing
to Charles Constantine himself much less to his alleged Byzantine ancestry.

The name Constantine was used by Franks quite frequently from the late 7th
century onwards, and filtered up to the feudal aristocracy at least once
again, by the early 10th century, for a viscount of Aunay. It is false to
maintain that this was rare or held significance in relation to any
Byzantine figure apart from a reverence for Constantine the Great who has
nothing to do with this genealogy.

Peter Stewart

[In the thread "Boso de Périgord's wife"]


JBernigaud wrote:
Thank you again for this very interesting explanation. In fact,I think I'm
going to study the sources about Charles Constantin's family, in order to
establish his different and most probable descendants. Do you know any
source or work about that subject?


It should first be remembered that definite proof of his maternity is
lacking. His father was certainly Emperor Louis the Blind, but Charles
Constantin was not able to inherit Provence from him or rights to
imperial succession, and becomae only count (or prince) of Vienne. His
legitimacy is usually accepted, although this was specifically denied by
Richer.

For all we know his possession of Vienne may be an indicator of his
mother's local origin & family rights - the name Constancius was not
uncommon there in the 10th century, and Constantinus also occurs: the
latter may have been in his case just a less usual variant of the
former. It should be emphasised that among his alleged descendants
through Queen Constance the form is "Constancia", not "Constantina"; and
the name for some reason never crossed back over the gender divide, in
spite of her own son's choice of an exotic Greek name for his heir
Philippe when the purportedly ancestral Constantine might have served
his needs at least as well.

Ulysse Chevalier's edition of _Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
Saint-André-le-Bas...suivi d'un appendice de chartes inédites sur le
diocèse de Vienne (IXe-XIIe siècles)_ (Lyons, 1869) contains several
different men of this name, including a few contemporaries who could not
possibly have been descendants of the Macedonian dynasty. If he was not
the son of the Greek princess Anna, Charles Constantin's mother (and or
Queen Constance's paternal grandmother for that matter) might have been
related to one or more of them.
Charles Constantin himself was married to a woman named Teutberga, who
occurs with him and two sons in a charter of ca 960. These boys were his
only recorded offspring, named Richard and Hugobert. They both disappear
from the record within a decade or so, and we don't know that either of
them reached adulthood or left descendants.


Attempts have been made to connect the house of Savoy to Richard, but
this is merely wishful guesswork.


The popularity of the supposed Byzantine ancestry of Charles Constantin
through his mother derives mainly from an article about him by Charles
Previté-Orton in _English Historical Review_ 29 (1914), and more lately
from the theories of Christian Settipani which you have noted.


Peter Stewart

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 11 feb 2007 03:31:44

Dear Peter

I appreciate your skepticism. I do not see anything wrong in
suggesting material for people to read, nor do I find it misleading
when referring to material that includes many speculations. Medieval
genealogy is at best an exercise in "legal parentage" and has very
little to do with the biological parentage that most people seem to be
interested in. A number of recent studies have shown that matching
birth certificates and DNA finds only a 95% correspondence. I have no
reason to believe that the percentage would be better in medieval
times. Medieval genealogy in many cases is pure speculation based
upon onomastics or other circumstantial evidence.

In fact, I had not read your post but find it interesting.

I will have to temper my statement that Ludwig III and Anna of
Byzantium were the "most likely" parents of Charles/Carolus, to
include the statement that Richer and you have questioned his
maternity, and that there is no
"proof " of his maternity.

Doug

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 feb 2007 04:23:40

I only meant it was misleading to cite those pages as if they were
Settipani's own work, as your post implied, or in some way established the
likelihood that had been claimed for a speculation that he popularised.
There is of course no harm in bringing this conjecture to the newsgroup's
attention, or in deciding to credit it for that matter.

You are quite right about "legal parentage".

The study of medieval genealogy can result in three classes of data -
factual, erroneous or approximate. Someone the other day was talking about
"creativity" in this exercise: I suppose this was a loose way of saying
"intuition", since obviously the facts were created at the time of the
biological or legal/canonical events that are recorded, and are already
there to be discovered (even by several people independently), while only
the mistakes and guesses can be uniquely "created" by a modern researcher.

I think the idea that Charles "Constantine" was a son of Leo VI's daughter
Anna, who may or may not have been the wife of his father Louis the Blind,
is an unsubstantiated guess, most probably in error, from insufficient
evidence.

Peter Stewart

<alden@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1171161103.968963.116230@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Dear Peter

I appreciate your skepticism. I do not see anything wrong in
suggesting material for people to read, nor do I find it misleading
when referring to material that includes many speculations. Medieval
genealogy is at best an exercise in "legal parentage" and has very
little to do with the biological parentage that most people seem to be
interested in. A number of recent studies have shown that matching
birth certificates and DNA finds only a 95% correspondence. I have no
reason to believe that the percentage would be better in medieval
times. Medieval genealogy in many cases is pure speculation based
upon onomastics or other circumstantial evidence.

In fact, I had not read your post but find it interesting.

I will have to temper my statement that Ludwig III and Anna of
Byzantium were the "most likely" parents of Charles/Carolus, to
include the statement that Richer and you have questioned his
maternity, and that there is no
"proof " of his maternity.

Doug




Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 11 feb 2007 12:55:24

In message of 11 Feb, "alden@mindspring.com" <alden@mindspring.com> wrote:

Dear Peter

I appreciate your skepticism. I do not see anything wrong in
suggesting material for people to read, nor do I find it misleading
when referring to material that includes many speculations. Medieval
genealogy is at best an exercise in "legal parentage" and has very
little to do with the biological parentage that most people seem to be
interested in. A number of recent studies have shown that matching
birth certificates and DNA finds only a 95% correspondence. I have no
reason to believe that the percentage would be better in medieval
times. Medieval genealogy in many cases is pure speculation based
upon onomastics or other circumstantial evidence.

I wonder.

For most landowning families until a little over a hundred years ago,
the daughters were well protected from marauding males. Further as we
well know and are grateful for, there were serious negotiations
conducted for the marriages of the eldest sons, if not also for younger
sons and daughters. By and large, second hand goods would not have been
considered fit for such negotiations.

I would therefore conclude that the incidence of illegitimacy among the
eldest children of landowning families is much lower than the above 5%
for the whole population. I would suggest that well below 1% is much
more likely.

Later children are not the same and quite likely small overall
proportion would be illegitimate.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

gerard.bieber

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av gerard.bieber » 12 feb 2007 11:59:24

Un peu de politique pour expliquer "Charles Constantine".
1.=Traité de Verdun 843 : le regnum carolingien est divisé en:
a)Francie occidentale (Charles le-Chauve +877)
b)Royaume carolingien de Germanie (Louis II le-Germanique)
c)royaume médian (ex-austrasie) à Lothaire I (°°Ermengarde(1))
2.=Le royaume médian (c), est divisé en 855 entre les fils de Lothaire I:
e) Italie à Louis, dit d'Italie (+875)°°Angilbertha (noblesse italienne)
f) Lorraine à Lothaire II (+869)
g) Vienne-Provence à Charles II (+863)
Tous morts sans descendants directs.

879=En Vienne-Provence, Boson usurpe le pouvoir. Son épouse est
Ermengarde(2)
fille de Louis d'Italie et d'Angilberthe (e).
Le couple a un fils: Louis (III) de Provence-Viennois (futur père de Charles
Constantin).

Entre temps, en 881,Charles le Gros (fils de Louis II en b) est devenu seul
carolingien à régner légitimement (Il tenait Charles-le-Simple, fils de
Charles le
chauve, en a, à l'écart).
En Provence-Viennois, Boson est éliminé, mais son épouse Ermengarde(2) est
régente au nom de leur fils Louis (III). Par accord en mai 887, Ermengarde
(2) obtient
quasiment l'adoption de son fils de P-V, par Charles-le Gros. Accord dirigé
contre
Rodolphe en Bourgogne-Transjurane, usurpateur welf.

Le règne de Charles le-Gros se termine par un fiasco.
L'empire des Carolingien éclate définitivement.
En Italie, Béranger de Frioul, dont la mère, Gisèle, était fille de Louis le
Pieux, se proclama roi de Lombardie (888), mais il fut renversé par Guy de
Spolète,
non carolingien, grâce aupape.Etienne V qui le fit même empereur.

894 alliance objective entre Arnuf (roi carolingien,bâtard de Germanie), et
Louis (III) de Provence contre Rodolphe de Bourgogne dont les intérêts
coïncidaient
avec celui des widonides d'Italie.

Béranger, revenu aux affaires en Lombardie était accusé d'avoir appelé les
Magyars. Les aristocrates italiens appelèrent Louis (III) de
Provence-Viennois
en 901. Il devint empereur carolingien,soutenu par le pape Léon V.
Mais en 905, il eut le yeux crevés par Béranger.C'était un infirme.

L'homme fort en Provence était alors HUGHES de PROVENCE.
Il était fils de Berthe, une fille bâtarde de Lothaire II
1°°Thibaut d'Arles dont Hughes.
2°°Adalbert le Riche.
Berthe était donc la tante de Louis (III).
Hughes était le cousin de Louis (III), et c'est lui qui en réalité dirigea
le royaume de Provence jusqu'à la mort de Louis (III/ +928). Charles
Constantin
avait une personnalité effacée comparé à Hughes de Provence.

Béranger réussissait en 915 à être sacré empereur.grâce à Jean X. Assassiné
en 924.
Rodolphe II de Bourgogne-Tranjurane qui cherchait la couronne d'Italie fut
évincé par Hughes de Provence (roi d'Italie 926-947)

928 Mort de Louis (III). Son fils Charles Constantin était incapable
d'empêcher les ravagesdes Sarazins. La noblesse du Royaume de
Vienne-Provence
appela Hughes de Provence pour organiser la défense du royaume.

Manipulateur, Hughes de Provence fut sans doute à l'origine de la rumeur qui
vers 930 donnait de l'emphase à ce que l'origine d'Anne, la mère de Charles
Constantin
fut entaché de bâtardise.
Hughes de Provence attendait alors le soutien de la flotte grecque contre
les
sarasins du Fraisinet.

Deux raisons dans une alliance objective entre Hughes de Provence et les
nouveaux maîtres deByzance pour discréditer le fils de Anna et Louis (III):
- d'abord un bénéfice direct pour Hughes qui pouvait revendiquer pour
lui-même le statut de roi en Provence-Viennois au lieu et place se son
cousin
(ceci, en plus de sa royauté en Italie).
- ensuite, c'était le prix à payer à la dynastie qui règnait alors à Byzance
qui ne voulait pas entendre parler d'une engence concurrente via Léo VI.

Ceci dit il existe une thèse selon laquelle Charles Constantin ne serait le
fils d'aucune des épouses officielles de Louis (III), mais celui d'une
concubinne: Walrade.
Conclusion: Probablement manipulation encore plus poussée de
Hughes de Provence. La vérité a été completement effacée.
Salutations.

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