Thursday, 8 February, 2007
Hello All,
Revisiting an item of old (most unusual on SGM), the matter of Robert
II of France and his problematic marriage to Bertha of Burgundy may have
a solution other than the 'accepted version.' At this point, my database
agrees with Genealogics, showing Robert and Bertha as related in the 3rd
& 3rd degrees (i.e. 2nd cousins) by common descent from Henry 'the
Fowler':
Henry I = Matilda of
'the Fowler' I Ringelheim
____________________I__________________
I I
Gerberga = Louis IV Hedwig = Hugh
I K of France I C of Paris
_________I _____I
I I
Matilda = Conrad 'the Pacific' Hugh 'Capet' = Adela
I K of Burgundy K of France I
I I
___________I_______________ __________________I
I I I I I
<siblings> Bertha = Robert II
of Burgundy K of France
I have not seen a primary or relatively contemporaneous document
on the subject, but all secondary sources I have seen state the
relationship as having been in the 4th degree [1]. This could
include an actual relationship where one of the parties was related
in the 3rd degree, and more exactly would be expressed as being 3rd
and 4th degrees: however, if they were related in either of the two
possible relationships which would fit under the '4th degree'
description, the above relationship by at least one generation.
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris. She is 'assigned' a birth date of 922, vs. her alleged
sister Gerberga having a birth date of ca. 913. Given Gerberga's
earlier marriage before that with Louis IV of France, she was
certainly producing issue before Hedwig. The possibility that
Hedwig was actually a child of Otto 'the Great' comes to mind:
this insertion of an additional generation in the foregoing
chart would cause the relationship to agree with the '4th degree'
kinship alleged elsewhere.
Should anyone have any documentation which supports or refutes
the alleged 4th degree relationship, or which might shed light on
alternate parentage for individuals in the ancestry of either
Robert or Bertha, that would be of interest to myself and to many
others of the list.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] William Russell, The History of Modern Europe (London: Longman
Rees & Co., 1837), I:117. Other early 20th cent. sources
noted repeat the same (4th degree) relationship as alleged.
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
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Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert II of
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
taf
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
On Feb 8, 9:21 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
This too would be problematic. A child of Otto (barring illegitimacy,
which would bear on her suitability as bride fo Hugh) would be
daughter of Otto's first wife, Hugh's sister-in-law. This would make
Hugh's second wife the aunt of the first. I know such a relationship
has been proposed in one other instance, but I have my doubts about
this one.
It has been too long since I looked at the documentation, but I am
pretty sure the marriage of Hugh to Henry's daughter is reported by
several chroniclers.
taf
I have not seen a primary or relatively contemporaneous document
on the subject, but all secondary sources I have seen state the
relationship as having been in the 4th degree [1]. This could
include an actual relationship where one of the parties was related
in the 3rd degree, and more exactly would be expressed as being 3rd
and 4th degrees: however, if they were related in either of the two
possible relationships which would fit under the '4th degree'
description, the above relationship by at least one generation.
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris. She is 'assigned' a birth date of 922, vs. her alleged
sister Gerberga having a birth date of ca. 913. Given Gerberga's
earlier marriage before that with Louis IV of France, she was
certainly producing issue before Hedwig. The possibility that
Hedwig was actually a child of Otto 'the Great' comes to mind:
this insertion of an additional generation in the foregoing
chart would cause the relationship to agree with the '4th degree'
kinship alleged elsewhere.
This too would be problematic. A child of Otto (barring illegitimacy,
which would bear on her suitability as bride fo Hugh) would be
daughter of Otto's first wife, Hugh's sister-in-law. This would make
Hugh's second wife the aunt of the first. I know such a relationship
has been proposed in one other instance, but I have my doubts about
this one.
It has been too long since I looked at the documentation, but I am
pretty sure the marriage of Hugh to Henry's daughter is reported by
several chroniclers.
taf
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:21:49 -0500, therav3@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
I see no error here. Hedwig was the daughter of Henry the Fowler of
Germany, as is documented, for example, by Flodoard's contemporary
annals, under the year 938 [MGH SS 3: 385]:
"Hugo princeps, filius Rotberti, sororem Othonis regis Transrhenensis,
filiam Heinrici, duxit uxorem."
For an interesting early medieval genealogical table showing the
common descent of Robert and Bertha (and many others) from Henry the
Fowler, see MGH SS 6: 32.
Stewart Baldwin
[snip]
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris.
I see no error here. Hedwig was the daughter of Henry the Fowler of
Germany, as is documented, for example, by Flodoard's contemporary
annals, under the year 938 [MGH SS 3: 385]:
"Hugo princeps, filius Rotberti, sororem Othonis regis Transrhenensis,
filiam Heinrici, duxit uxorem."
For an interesting early medieval genealogical table showing the
common descent of Robert and Bertha (and many others) from Henry the
Fowler, see MGH SS 6: 32.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
There is no error in the generations of the common descent from Henry the
Fowler, only a discrepancy in ways of counting degrees - your early
20th-century sources evidently enumerated the individuals themselves rather
than starting from their related parents.
Contemporary sources do not assign a degree to this kinship, and the reasons
given for a marriage between Robert and Bertha being illicit were at least
as much about spiritual affinity (he was godfather to one of her sons) as
consanguinity.
Peter Stewart
<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2946.1170955357.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Fowler, only a discrepancy in ways of counting degrees - your early
20th-century sources evidently enumerated the individuals themselves rather
than starting from their related parents.
Contemporary sources do not assign a degree to this kinship, and the reasons
given for a marriage between Robert and Bertha being illicit were at least
as much about spiritual affinity (he was godfather to one of her sons) as
consanguinity.
Peter Stewart
<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2946.1170955357.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thursday, 8 February, 2007
Hello All,
Revisiting an item of old (most unusual on SGM), the matter of Robert
II of France and his problematic marriage to Bertha of Burgundy may have
a solution other than the 'accepted version.' At this point, my database
agrees with Genealogics, showing Robert and Bertha as related in the 3rd
& 3rd degrees (i.e. 2nd cousins) by common descent from Henry 'the
Fowler':
Henry I = Matilda of
'the Fowler' I Ringelheim
____________________I__________________
I I
Gerberga = Louis IV Hedwig = Hugh
I K of France I C of Paris
_________I _____I
I I
Matilda = Conrad 'the Pacific' Hugh 'Capet' = Adela
I K of Burgundy K of France I
I I
___________I_______________ __________________I
I I I I I
siblings> Bertha = Robert II
of Burgundy K of France
I have not seen a primary or relatively contemporaneous document
on the subject, but all secondary sources I have seen state the
relationship as having been in the 4th degree [1]. This could
include an actual relationship where one of the parties was related
in the 3rd degree, and more exactly would be expressed as being 3rd
and 4th degrees: however, if they were related in either of the two
possible relationships which would fit under the '4th degree'
description, the above relationship by at least one generation.
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris. She is 'assigned' a birth date of 922, vs. her alleged
sister Gerberga having a birth date of ca. 913. Given Gerberga's
earlier marriage before that with Louis IV of France, she was
certainly producing issue before Hedwig. The possibility that
Hedwig was actually a child of Otto 'the Great' comes to mind:
this insertion of an additional generation in the foregoing
chart would cause the relationship to agree with the '4th degree'
kinship alleged elsewhere.
Should anyone have any documentation which supports or refutes
the alleged 4th degree relationship, or which might shed light on
alternate parentage for individuals in the ancestry of either
Robert or Bertha, that would be of interest to myself and to many
others of the list.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] William Russell, The History of Modern Europe (London: Longman
Rees & Co., 1837), I:117. Other early 20th cent. sources
noted repeat the same (4th degree) relationship as alleged.
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
free AOL Mail and more.
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
In article <k2dns2p86b90bmigg3s8he92af9dobsjn6@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
Yes, this is among the family of tables explored (& illustrated) by Nora
Gadeke, _Zeugnisse bildlicher Darstellung der Nachkommenschaft Heinrichs
I_. Arbeiten zur Fruhmittelalterforschung, 22 (Berlin, New York:
Walter de Gruyter, 1992).
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:21:49 -0500, therav3@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris.
I see no error here. Hedwig was the daughter of Henry the Fowler of
Germany, as is documented, for example, by Flodoard's contemporary
annals, under the year 938 [MGH SS 3: 385]:
"Hugo princeps, filius Rotberti, sororem Othonis regis Transrhenensis,
filiam Heinrici, duxit uxorem."
For an interesting early medieval genealogical table showing the
common descent of Robert and Bertha (and many others) from Henry the
Fowler, see MGH SS 6: 32.
Yes, this is among the family of tables explored (& illustrated) by Nora
Gadeke, _Zeugnisse bildlicher Darstellung der Nachkommenschaft Heinrichs
I_. Arbeiten zur Fruhmittelalterforschung, 22 (Berlin, New York:
Walter de Gruyter, 1992).
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
Dear Stewart, and Peter,
Thanks for your responses, and the citation to Flodoard. There
was clearly a 'modern' error in interpretation of the relationship.
Much appreciated.
Now, if only someone can find a valid descent from the 'gosling'
offspring of Robert and Bertha........
Cheers,
John
On Feb 8, 6:52 pm, Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Thanks for your responses, and the citation to Flodoard. There
was clearly a 'modern' error in interpretation of the relationship.
Much appreciated.
Now, if only someone can find a valid descent from the 'gosling'
offspring of Robert and Bertha........
Cheers,
John
On Feb 8, 6:52 pm, Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:21:49 -0500, ther...@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
If there is a generational error, it would appear most likely
to lie with the parentage assigned to Hedwig, wife of Hugh of
Paris.
I see no error here. Hedwig was the daughter of Henry the Fowler of
Germany, as is documented, for example, by Flodoard's contemporary
annals, under the year 938 [MGH SS 3: 385]:
"Hugo princeps, filius Rotberti, sororem Othonis regis Transrhenensis,
filiam Heinrici, duxit uxorem."
For an interesting early medieval genealogical table showing the
common descent of Robert and Bertha (and many others) from Henry the
Fowler, see MGH SS 6: 32.
Stewart Baldwin