Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

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paul bulkley

Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 07 feb 2007 18:29:02

Dear TAF:

Thank you for your excellent suggestion that the
family name should consider the name ending with the
term "legh".

My immediate response is "Why Not"

However the problem is finding meaningful evidence
that the family name was Bulklegh or whatever.
Admittedly certain authorities that have specialised
in explaining family names have proposed that the name
was derived from the Cheshire village of Bulkelegh or
of similar spelling.

But what credibility can be given to such a
conclusion?

Scribes commonly wrote phonetically - thus if one
examine public documents one will discover the family
name of Bulkley spelt 60 to 100 different ways. How
can one believe a name to be prescribed to a village
when the name of the village and the family has been
spelt in so many ways?

Secondly if one is seriously seeking the ancestors of
a specific family, does it make sense to assume that
the name expert has a correct explanation?

To simply hope that the name expert is correct, and
then to simply wait and wait to find the inexplicable
hidden ancestors in Cheshire makes little sense.

Richard Bulceleia is recorded to have been a witness
to a Bunbury charter 1170/1180. Should we not imagine
that if the family name is named after the village
that the village should have been named Bulceleai?

Anyhow the question is finding avenues to discover the
hidden ancestors. Where did they come from?

Records reveal that Buckleys (Whalley coucher) were in
Lancashire 1150 or earlier. Currently I assume that
they were servants/stewards of the Lacy (Lascy)
Family. One member is claimed to have married a
daughter of Roger Lacy Earl Chester lord of
Pontefract.

Dublin Ireland 1200 records reveal of excavations of a
comprehensive foundry and the manufacture of buckles
and similar items - name of owner brothers Bukeley.

London/Essex/Kent records commence 1200 include
numerous members of the family including skills in the
Goldsmith Guild.

Public UK Records reveal license for a George Bukeler
(Bucler) merchant of Rouen to visit England a couple
of times(early 1200s)

What is of some interest and significance (perhaps) is
that the Bulkleys of Cheshire, the Buckleys of
Lancashire and Yorkshire, the Bukelers of Dublin
Ireland, the Bulkleys of London, Essex, and Kent, and
the Bukeler (Bucler) merchant of Rouen never appear to
have crossed paths, and I have yet to find any family
connection.

Regardless all appeared to have possessed modest
wealth, trade skills, and administrative abilities
immediately they have been recorded in the various
localities which suggests an ancestry that created
this favorable state of affairs. It did not simply
happen.

It is difficult to envision that the family in
Cheshire achieved such a status surrounded by armed
criminal camps and marauding Welsh. Perhaps feasible
but doubtful.

Thus I think an investigation of Normandy and France
makes some sense; particularly the possibility of some
connection with the Lacy Family. It may explain the
existence of merchants of the Bulkley family name in
places such as Gandtz (Danzig)

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley





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taf

Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av taf » 08 feb 2007 04:10:36

On Feb 7, 9:19 am, paul bulkley <designecono...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear TAF:

Thank you for your excellent suggestion that the
family name should consider the name ending with the
term "legh".

My immediate response is "Why Not"

However the problem is finding meaningful evidence
that the family name was Bulklegh or whatever.
Admittedly certain authorities that have specialised
in explaining family names have proposed that the name
was derived from the Cheshire village of Bulkelegh or
of similar spelling.

But what credibility can be given to such a
conclusion?

Scribes commonly wrote phonetically - thus if one
examine public documents one will discover the family
name of Bulkley spelt 60 to 100 different ways. How
can one believe a name to be prescribed to a village
when the name of the village and the family has been
spelt in so many ways?

Opening up a Pandora's box, this criticism applies to all usage of
surname to point to origin . . . . . and that is the only evidence you
have got. If you can't use the surname, then you are really stuck.

Secondly if one is seriously seeking the ancestors of
a specific family, does it make sense to assume that
the name expert has a correct explanation?

Well, if they really are experts, then perhaps they have a better
chance of being right than a non-expert. Are you an expert?

To simply hope that the name expert is correct, and
then to simply wait and wait to find the inexplicable
hidden ancestors in Cheshire makes little sense.

Richard Bulceleia is recorded to have been a witness
to a Bunbury charter 1170/1180. Should we not imagine
that if the family name is named after the village
that the village should have been named Bulceleai?

Umm, see above, where you have already drawn your conclusion,
demonstrating this as nothing but a red herring. Not that you really
were serious here, but Bulkeley is the modern spelling of the town,
not the 12th century spelling. What makes you think it wasn't
Bulceleia? -leia _is_ -lega _is_ -legh, -ley, -lee, etc.

Anyhow the question is finding avenues to discover the
hidden ancestors. Where did they come from?

Yes, and you find ancestors by starting with what you know and tracing
back, not by doing a global search for anyone with a remotely similar
name and assuming from this some grand connected family. _If_ they
were named for the English town, then the similarities are entirely
coincidental, and you are wasting all of your effort. It is your time
to waste, but one ignores the obvious in favor of the more essoteric
explanation at their own peril.

Records reveal that Buckleys (Whalley coucher) were in
Lancashire 1150 or earlier. Currently I assume that
they were servants/stewards of the Lacy (Lascy)
Family. One member is claimed to have married a
daughter of Roger Lacy Earl Chester lord of
Pontefract.

Buckleys and not Bulkeleys. What makes you think they represent the
same family?


Dublin Ireland 1200 records reveal of excavations of a
comprehensive foundry and the manufacture of buckles
and similar items - name of owner brothers Bukeley.

London/Essex/Kent records commence 1200 include
numerous members of the family including skills in the
Goldsmith Guild.

Public UK Records reveal license for a George Bukeler
(Bucler) merchant of Rouen to visit England a couple
of times(early 1200s)

More tenuous connections.

What is of some interest and significance (perhaps) is
that the Bulkleys of Cheshire, the Buckleys of
Lancashire and Yorkshire, the Bukelers of Dublin
Ireland, the Bulkleys of London, Essex, and Kent, and
the Bukeler (Bucler) merchant of Rouen never appear to
have crossed paths, and I have yet to find any family
connection.

Yet you seem to be operating on the assumption that there was one.

Regardless all appeared to have possessed modest
wealth, trade skills, and administrative abilities
immediately they have been recorded in the various
localities which suggests an ancestry that created
this favorable state of affairs. It did not simply
happen.

No? Argument from personal incredulity is not always persuasive.

It is difficult to envision that the family in
Cheshire achieved such a status surrounded by armed
criminal camps and marauding Welsh. Perhaps feasible
but doubtful.

Is this really an accurate description of 12th century Cheshire?
Anyhow, you are making the 'One Hugh Family" fallacy again. Just
because the Bulkeleys came from Cheshire doesn't mean that the
Bukelers did (in fact, the Cheshire origin is nearly antithetical to
the One Grand Family view), or even the Buckleys. (For example,
Buckley and Bulkeley would represent different critters living in the
field: bullocks vs. male deer, and easily could have come from two
completely different towns.) Now how hard is it for one Norman baron
in Cheshire to come out of it in the condition of the early documented
Bulkeleys. Not very. Probably most Normans in Cheshire that didn't
'daughter out' ended up exactly where the Bulkeleys were int he 12th
century.

Thus I think an investigation of Normandy and France
makes some sense; particularly the possibility of some
connection with the Lacy Family. It may explain the
existence of merchants of the Bulkley family name in
places such as Gandtz (Danzig)

Setting aside the assumption that the accounts of surname origin are
written by experts, your approach looks little different than saying:
"I know it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it flies
like a duck and it swims like a duck, but why would we trust a
naturalist to conclude it is a duck." The problem is that no matter
how much you want it to be a penguin, it still looks like a duck. It
may not be a duck, but you won't figure that out if all you do is
study penguins, auks and kiwis.

taf

taf

Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av taf » 09 feb 2007 05:29:21

On Feb 7, 9:19 am, paul bulkley <designecono...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Richard Bulceleia is recorded to have been a witness
to a Bunbury charter 1170/1180. Should we not imagine
that if the family name is named after the village
that the village should have been named Bulceleai?

I just noticed that when you posted on this last June, you said the
name was Richun de Bulceleia. Richun is not Richard, and 'de'
Bulceleia clearly points to it being a toponym, making the links to
Bucklers all the more tenuous.

That being said, Bunbury is 2 miles away from Bulkeley, Cheshire. Why
are you trying so hard to convince yourself and the rest of us that
Bulceleia has nothing to do with Bulkeley, Cheshire, two miles away?
With geography like this, you had better do better than "what if the
experts are wrong?" or complaints that the modern spelling of the town
of Bulkeley is different.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Bulkley Ancestors In Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 feb 2007 06:05:10

BINGO!

DSH

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1170995361.480122.170190@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

On Feb 7, 9:19 am, paul bulkley <designecono...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Richard Bulceleia is recorded to have been a witness
to a Bunbury charter 1170/1180. Should we not imagine
that if the family name is named after the village
that the village should have been named Bulceleai?

I just noticed that when you posted on this last June, you said the
name was Richun de Bulceleia. Richun is not Richard, and 'de'
Bulceleia clearly points to it being a toponym, making the links to
Bucklers all the more tenuous.

That being said, Bunbury is 2 miles away from Bulkeley, Cheshire. Why
are you trying so hard to convince yourself and the rest of us that
Bulceleia has nothing to do with Bulkeley, Cheshire, two miles away?
With geography like this, you had better do better than "what if the
experts are wrong?" or complaints that the modern spelling of the town
of Bulkeley is different.

taf

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 09 feb 2007 13:24:52

Bulceleia is quite clearly Bulc(k)eley, as -eia was the standard Latin
ending when Latinizing an English word ending in -ey. Compare
Littleneia for Littleney in the charter of confirmation of Edward the
Confessor to Giso Bishop of Bath and Wells.

graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk

Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150

Legg inn av graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk » 10 feb 2007 12:39:07

On Feb 9, 12:24 pm, "Alex Maxwell Findlater"
<maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bulceleia is quite clearly Bulc(k)eley, as -eia was the standard Latin
ending when Latinizing an English word ending in -ey. Compare
Littleneia for Littleney in the charter of confirmation of Edward the
Confessor to Giso Bishop of Bath and Wells.

It is quite clear that the name Bulkeley is derived from the old Saxon
term 'b_ll_cks-leigh' meaning 'a load of old b_ll_cks'.

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