Walter Stewart's marriage
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
grothenwell
Walter Stewart's marriage
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Thank you for your time,
Grothenwell
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Thank you for your time,
Grothenwell
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:
This is, if I have identifed the chap correctly, all in The Scots
Peerage, volume 1 pages 12 and 162.
Can you confirm that you are talking of Walter Stewart (he was the first
to adopt this as his surname), the third High Steward of Scotland? Then
I can provide more details.
Scots Peerage, all 9 volumes, is available on one CD from:
http://www.genealogysupplies.com/produc ... submit.y=4
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
This is, if I have identifed the chap correctly, all in The Scots
Peerage, volume 1 pages 12 and 162.
Can you confirm that you are talking of Walter Stewart (he was the first
to adopt this as his surname), the third High Steward of Scotland? Then
I can provide more details.
Scots Peerage, all 9 volumes, is available on one CD from:
http://www.genealogysupplies.com/produc ... submit.y=4
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I am
enquiring about.
I would like to look in the archives of the Newsgroup, but my searches
didn't come up with anything relevant. Perhaps my criteria in the
search didn't match the posting.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I am
enquiring about.
I would like to look in the archives of the Newsgroup, but my searches
didn't come up with anything relevant. Perhaps my criteria in the
search didn't match the posting.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In message of 7 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
office as a surname. He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by
Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage. He
is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and he
died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I am
enquiring about.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
office as a surname. He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by
Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage. He
is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and he
died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 7 Feb, 23:46, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
Hi Tim,
it was very kind of you to look that up for me.
May I enquire who Thomas Stewart was?
If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of?
Many thanks,
Grothenwell
In message of 7 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I am
enquiring about.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
office as a surname. He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by
Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage. He
is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and he
died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hi Tim,
it was very kind of you to look that up for me.
May I enquire who Thomas Stewart was?
If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of?
Many thanks,
Grothenwell
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 8 Feb, 20:29, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8 Feb, 01:12, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Hi Will,
Came accross your post by accident as it wasn't with the earlier
thread.
Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus"
Thanks,
Grothenwell
On 7 Feb, 23:46, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 7 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably Alesta), was I
believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of Forfar or Mar). She was the
daughter of Gilchrist. I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I am
enquiring about.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
? Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
? office as a surname. ?He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by
? Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage. ?He
? is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
? Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and he
? died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe??????????????????????????????????????????t...@powys.org
?????????????For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hi Tim,
it was very kind of you to look that up for me.
May I enquire who Thomas Stewart was?
If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of?
Many thanks,
Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
On 8 Feb, 01:12, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Also that it confirms that the wifes name was "Bethoc"
"Anglicized to Beatrix" per a note which I think was by Michael-Anne
Also doesn't it say "probably Beatrix of Angus" ?
That's what I have in my notes as coming from SP
Will Johnson
Hi Will,
Came accross your post by accident as it wasn't with the earlier
thread.
Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus"
Thanks,
Grothenwell
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In message of 8 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:
I haven't the foggiest and SP gives no footnote on this matter.
SP gives no wife for Gilchrist and even for the two sons they say of
him:
"He appears to have had two sons:--"
I trust you are getting the flavour of these early Scottish (or should I
say Scotch as that was the word in use certainly in the 19th century?)
earls, that they appear but shadowly in the surviving records of their
times.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On 7 Feb, 23:46, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 7 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably
Alesta), was I believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of
Forfar or Mar). She was the daughter of Gilchrist. I have
read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart Ross that Gilchrist
was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen elsewhere
that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I
am enquiring about.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
? Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
? office as a surname. ?He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by ?
Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage.
?He ? is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
? Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and
he ? died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
Hi Tim,
it was very kind of you to look that up for me.
May I enquire who Thomas Stewart was?
I haven't the foggiest and SP gives no footnote on this matter.
If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of?
SP gives no wife for Gilchrist and even for the two sons they say of
him:
"He appears to have had two sons:--"
I trust you are getting the flavour of these early Scottish (or should I
say Scotch as that was the word in use certainly in the 19th century?)
earls, that they appear but shadowly in the surviving records of their
times.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 9 Feb, 00:32, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
Hello Tim,
Yes a flavour, but the taste is a bit bitter due to the lack of pure
facts. Never mind I suppose that is going to happen with things that
happened 700 years ago.
The best thing is that people like yourself and Will are willing to
help people like me who are just trying to get as much details as
possible. Thanks once more.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell
In message of 8 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 Feb, 23:46, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 7 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 Feb, 15:08, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Fitz Alan, (son of Alan Fitz Walter and probably
Alesta), was I believe married to Beatrice or Beatrix (of
Forfar or Mar). She was the daughter of Gilchrist. I have
read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart Ross that Gilchrist
was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen elsewhere
that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please?
Neither is reasonably certain. The marriage of this Walter
is very murky. Even the name Beatrix is less than 100% certain,
and her ancestry is unknown. It's not unhinted at, and thats
what the names above are, unwarranted factualizations of hints.
Angus is the more likely.
Look in the archives of this newsgroup.
Doug McDonald
Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Yes it is Walter Stewart the third High Steward of Scotland who I
am enquiring about.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, p. 12 says of this Walter:
? Walter, third High Stewart, was the first to adopt the name of his
? office as a surname. ?He was appointed Justiciar of Scotland by ?
Alexander II, in 1250, and negotiated that king's second marriage.
?He ? is said by Thomas Stewart to have married Beatrix, daughter of
? Gilchrist, earl of Angus, but no proof has been found of this, and
he ? died in 1241.
In the pages on the earls of Angus no such daughter is given (presumably
because there is no evidence for such a daughter).
There are no corrections to this in Vol 9 (the Corrigenda volume).
Hi Tim,
it was very kind of you to look that up for me.
May I enquire who Thomas Stewart was?
I haven't the foggiest and SP gives no footnote on this matter.
If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of?
SP gives no wife for Gilchrist and even for the two sons they say of
him:
"He appears to have had two sons:--"
I trust you are getting the flavour of these early Scottish (or should I
say Scotch as that was the word in use certainly in the 19th century?)
earls, that they appear but shadowly in the surviving records of their
times.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hello Tim,
Yes a flavour, but the taste is a bit bitter due to the lack of pure
facts. Never mind I suppose that is going to happen with things that
happened 700 years ago.
The best thing is that people like yourself and Will are willing to
help people like me who are just trying to get as much details as
possible. Thanks once more.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell