Thursday, 25 January, 2007
Dear Adrian, et al.,
Way back in 2002, you had posted information accumulated concerning the de la Mare
family (or families), with an eye toward sorting out what relationship existed between
these individuals. I have noted a few pieces concerning one particular group, some of
whom were included in your research, which may help in constructing one pedigree and
removing these individuals from contention for membership elsewhere (e.g., de la Mare
of Ashtead).
Round, in Ancient Charters (Pipe Roll Soc. vol. X) published a charter which he
dated "Circ. A.D. 1123",
' Notification that Walter de Gloucester has given to his nephew William
de Mare Little Hereford in fee, to be held by the service of two knights. ' [1]
The abbreviations and markings are virtually impossible to replicate, but
" Walt' de Gloec' dedisse Will'o de Mara nepoti suo parua heref' " is clearly
determinable from the text [not having basis for doubting Round here, anyway]. Round
goes on to say in notes on p. 20,
' The present charter is a relic of a subsequent family arrangement, by
which the Manor of Little Hereford was transferred to a nephew of Walter,
his son's wife, Sybil, receiving for dower, in exchange, another manor. For
this arrangement was required the consent of three parties, Miles (Walter's
son and heir), his wife Sybil, and their heir. The forms in which the
consents of the two former are set forth should be observed. The consent
of the heir is represented by the appearance of Margaret, their daughter,
as a witness. Now this charter must be previous to the death of Walter de
Gloucester (circ. 1128) and to that of William de Mare. But the latter
had been succeeded by his son Robert, and he in turn by his brother Henry,
when we come to the Pipe Roll of 1129/1130........ The date assigned
in the official calendar is "1135-1143." ' [2]
From Round's description, this sounds like Robert and Henry de la Mare,
two individuals whom you noted in Domesday Descendants holding land in Oxon. in
1129-1130. You had also noted an Oliver de la Mare, of Little Hereford, who
fl. 1166, also in DD [3].
There is a large gap in time until I see a Reginald de la Mare being seated
at Little Hereford; he was allegedly father of Sir Peter de la Mare, Speaker of
the House of Commons in 1376, knight of the shire for Herefordshire, 1376-1383
and sheriff of Herefordshire, 1372-3 [4]. These gaps notwithstanding, this is
the rough chart I can visualize at present:
William de la Mare
of Little Hereford
<nepos of Walter de Gloucester>
I
________I_____________
I I
[DD571: [DD571: HENRY de MARA; In
ROBERT de the 1129/30 Pipe Roll held
MARA; (-in land in Oxon from his father
1129/30) His and serjeanty of hawking and
br Henry suc land from his br Robert]
to his land in [Cleveland: on the death of
Oxon] his father paid a fine for
the office of "Veltrare" or
huntsman]
I
I
V
[DD571: OLIVER de MARA
In 1166 held two fees of Harscoit Musard;
Ld of Little Hereford]
I
I
V
Sir Reginald de la Mare
of Little Hereford
I
I
Sir Peter de la Mare
(d. ca. 1288/1400)
I hope this is of some use, directly or indirectly.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] J. H. Round, ed., Ancient Charters, Royal and Private, Prior to A.D. 1200:
Pipe Roll Soc. Pub., vol. X (London: Wyman & Sons, 1888), I:19-20.
[2] Ibid., p. 20.
[3] Adrian Channing, <early de la Mare family>, SGM, 3 Nov 2002. See Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants, p. 571.
[4] Helena Mary Chew, The English Ecclesiastical Tenants-in-Chief and Knight
Service (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1932), p. 136, note 1:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, p. 76. The service was rendered by John de
la Mare, Nicholas de Wormele, William de Caple, knights,....
p. 143 note 2:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, pp. 308 et seq. Bonds executed by William,
Lord of How Capele, Reginald de la Mare, Lord of Little Hereford, and
Robert Petit, Lord of Dudley.'
Michael A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England, provides the
following:
' SIR PETER DE LA MARE was the first known speaker of the House of
Commons in 1376 and was speaker again next year. Apart from these
hightlights, his career is remarkably obscure. His date of birth is
not known, but he was apparently son of Sir Reginald de la Mare and
lord of Little Hereford and Yatton in Herefordshire. '
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
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De la Mare of Little Hereford
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: De la Mare of Little Hereford
Except the term nepos in 1123 could mean eirther nephew or kinsman.
Round, being a careful scholar, otten left the word nepos untranslated
for that reason.
DR
On Jan 25, 10:55 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
Round, being a careful scholar, otten left the word nepos untranslated
for that reason.
DR
On Jan 25, 10:55 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 25 January, 2007
Dear Adrian, et al.,
Way back in 2002, you had posted information accumulated concerning the de la Mare
family (or families), with an eye toward sorting out what relationship existed between
these individuals. I have noted a few pieces concerning one particular group, some of
whom were included in your research, which may help in constructing one pedigree and
removing these individuals from contention for membership elsewhere (e.g., de la Mare
of Ashtead).
Round, in Ancient Charters (Pipe Roll Soc. vol. X) published a charter which he
dated "Circ. A.D. 1123",
' Notification that Walter de Gloucester has given to his nephew William
de Mare Little Hereford in fee, to be held by the service of two knights. ' [1]
The abbreviations and markings are virtually impossible to replicate, but
" Walt' de Gloec' dedisse Will'o de Mara nepoti suo parua heref' " is clearly
determinable from the text [not having basis for doubting Round here, anyway]. Round
goes on to say in notes on p. 20,
' The present charter is a relic of a subsequent family arrangement, by
which the Manor of Little Hereford was transferred to a nephew of Walter,
his son's wife, Sybil, receiving for dower, in exchange, another manor. For
this arrangement was required the consent of three parties, Miles (Walter's
son and heir), his wife Sybil, and their heir. The forms in which the
consents of the two former are set forth should be observed. The consent
of the heir is represented by the appearance of Margaret, their daughter,
as a witness. Now this charter must be previous to the death of Walter de
Gloucester (circ. 1128) and to that of William de Mare. But the latter
had been succeeded by his son Robert, and he in turn by his brother Henry,
when we come to the Pipe Roll of 1129/1130........ The date assigned
in the official calendar is "1135-1143." ' [2]
From Round's description, this sounds like Robert and Henry de la Mare,
two individuals whom you noted in Domesday Descendants holding land in Oxon. in
1129-1130. You had also noted an Oliver de la Mare, of Little Hereford, who
fl. 1166, also in DD [3].
There is a large gap in time until I see a Reginald de la Mare being seated
at Little Hereford; he was allegedly father of Sir Peter de la Mare, Speaker of
the House of Commons in 1376, knight of the shire for Herefordshire, 1376-1383
and sheriff of Herefordshire, 1372-3 [4]. These gaps notwithstanding, this is
the rough chart I can visualize at present:
William de la Mare
of Little Hereford
nepos of Walter de Gloucester
I
________I_____________
I I
[DD571: [DD571: HENRY de MARA; In
ROBERT de the 1129/30 Pipe Roll held
MARA; (-in land in Oxon from his father
1129/30) His and serjeanty of hawking and
br Henry suc land from his br Robert]
to his land in [Cleveland: on the death of
Oxon] his father paid a fine for
the office of "Veltrare" or
huntsman]
I
I
V
[DD571: OLIVER de MARA
In 1166 held two fees of Harscoit Musard;
Ld of Little Hereford]
I
I
V
Sir Reginald de la Mare
of Little Hereford
I
I
Sir Peter de la Mare
(d. ca. 1288/1400)
I hope this is of some use, directly or indirectly.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] J. H. Round, ed., Ancient Charters, Royal and Private, Prior to A.D. 1200:
Pipe Roll Soc. Pub., vol. X (London: Wyman & Sons, 1888), I:19-20.
[2] Ibid., p. 20.
[3] Adrian Channing, <early de la Mare family>, SGM, 3 Nov 2002. See Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants, p. 571.
[4] Helena Mary Chew, The English Ecclesiastical Tenants-in-Chief and Knight
Service (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1932), p. 136, note 1:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, p. 76. The service was rendered by John de
la Mare, Nicholas de Wormele, William de Caple, knights,....
p. 143 note 2:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, pp. 308 et seq. Bonds executed by William,
Lord of How Capele, Reginald de la Mare, Lord of Little Hereford, and
Robert Petit, Lord of Dudley.'
Michael A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England, provides the
following:
' SIR PETER DE LA MARE was the first known speaker of the House of
Commons in 1376 and was speaker again next year. Apart from these
hightlights, his career is remarkably obscure. His date of birth is
not known, but he was apparently son of Sir Reginald de la Mare and
lord of Little Hereford and Yatton in Herefordshire. '
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: De la Mare of Little Hereford
Dear Doug,
True enough. I usually find <nepos> to indicate either nephew or
grandson, but certainty is not always present.
You'll note in the extracts in my post, Round is the only
individual who used the word "nephew" concerning William de la Mare.
Given the subsequent chronology of this particular de la Mare family,
and the identification of the coheirs of Walter de Gloucester, he had
apparently ruled out "grandson" as a possibility.
Cheers,
John
On Jan 25, 3:03 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
True enough. I usually find <nepos> to indicate either nephew or
grandson, but certainty is not always present.
You'll note in the extracts in my post, Round is the only
individual who used the word "nephew" concerning William de la Mare.
Given the subsequent chronology of this particular de la Mare family,
and the identification of the coheirs of Walter de Gloucester, he had
apparently ruled out "grandson" as a possibility.
Cheers,
John
On Jan 25, 3:03 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Except the term nepos in 1123 could mean eirther nephew or kinsman.
Round, being a careful scholar, otten left the word nepos untranslated
for that reason.
DR
On Jan 25, 10:55 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 25 January, 2007
Dear Adrian, et al.,
Way back in 2002, you had posted information accumulated concerning the de la Mare
family (or families), with an eye toward sorting out what relationship existed between
these individuals. I have noted a few pieces concerning one particular group, some of
whom were included in your research, which may help in constructing one pedigree and
removing these individuals from contention for membership elsewhere (e.g., de la Mare
of Ashtead).
Round, in Ancient Charters (Pipe Roll Soc. vol. X) published a charter which he
dated "Circ. A.D. 1123",
' Notification that Walter de Gloucester has given to his nephew William
de Mare Little Hereford in fee, to be held by the service of two knights. ' [1]
The abbreviations and markings are virtually impossible to replicate, but
" Walt' de Gloec' dedisse Will'o de Mara nepoti suo parua heref' " is clearly
determinable from the text [not having basis for doubting Round here, anyway]. Round
goes on to say in notes on p. 20,
' The present charter is a relic of a subsequent family arrangement, by
which the Manor of Little Hereford was transferred to a nephew of Walter,
his son's wife, Sybil, receiving for dower, in exchange, another manor. For
this arrangement was required the consent of three parties, Miles (Walter's
son and heir), his wife Sybil, and their heir. The forms in which the
consents of the two former are set forth should be observed. The consent
of the heir is represented by the appearance of Margaret, their daughter,
as a witness. Now this charter must be previous to the death of Walter de
Gloucester (circ. 1128) and to that of William de Mare. But the latter
had been succeeded by his son Robert, and he in turn by his brother Henry,
when we come to the Pipe Roll of 1129/1130........ The date assigned
in the official calendar is "1135-1143." ' [2]
From Round's description, this sounds like Robert and Henry de la Mare,
two individuals whom you noted in Domesday Descendants holding land in Oxon. in
1129-1130. You had also noted an Oliver de la Mare, of Little Hereford, who
fl. 1166, also in DD [3].
There is a large gap in time until I see a Reginald de la Mare being seated
at Little Hereford; he was allegedly father of Sir Peter de la Mare, Speaker of
the House of Commons in 1376, knight of the shire for Herefordshire, 1376-1383
and sheriff of Herefordshire, 1372-3 [4]. These gaps notwithstanding, this is
the rough chart I can visualize at present:
William de la Mare
of Little Hereford
nepos of Walter de Gloucester
I
________I_____________
I I
[DD571: [DD571: HENRY de MARA; In
ROBERT de the 1129/30 Pipe Roll held
MARA; (-in land in Oxon from his father
1129/30) His and serjeanty of hawking and
br Henry suc land from his br Robert]
to his land in [Cleveland: on the death of
Oxon] his father paid a fine for
the office of "Veltrare" or
huntsman]
I
I
V
[DD571: OLIVER de MARA
In 1166 held two fees of Harscoit Musard;
Ld of Little Hereford]
I
I
V
Sir Reginald de la Mare
of Little Hereford
I
I
Sir Peter de la Mare
(d. ca. 1288/1400)
I hope this is of some use, directly or indirectly.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] J. H. Round, ed., Ancient Charters, Royal and Private, Prior to A.D. 1200:
Pipe Roll Soc. Pub., vol. X (London: Wyman & Sons, 1888), I:19-20.
[2] Ibid., p. 20.
[3] Adrian Channing, <early de la Mare family>, SGM, 3 Nov 2002. See Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants, p. 571.
[4] Helena Mary Chew, The English Ecclesiastical Tenants-in-Chief and Knight
Service (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1932), p. 136, note 1:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, p. 76. The service was rendered by John de
la Mare, Nicholas de Wormele, William de Caple, knights,....
p. 143 note 2:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, pp. 308 et seq. Bonds executed by William,
Lord of How Capele, Reginald de la Mare, Lord of Little Hereford, and
Robert Petit, Lord of Dudley.'
Michael A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England, provides the
following:
' SIR PETER DE LA MARE was the first known speaker of the House of
Commons in 1376 and was speaker again next year. Apart from these
hightlights, his career is remarkably obscure. His date of birth is
not known, but he was apparently son of Sir Reginald de la Mare and
lord of Little Hereford and Yatton in Herefordshire. '
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: De la Mare of Little Hereford
Dear John ~
After 1300 the Latin word nepos usually meant nephew or grandson.
However, before 1300, it frequently meant kinsman (ditto neptis for
kinswoman). As such, unless you have better documentation, Round
withstanding, it would be incorrect to call William de la Mare the
nephew of Walter of Gloucester. Rather, it would be best to simply
call William de la Mare Walter's kinsman, and leave it at that.
Here are three typical examples of nepos/neptis meaning
kinsman/kinswoman in records before 1300:
1. Sibyl de Falaise was styled “neptisâ€
After 1300 the Latin word nepos usually meant nephew or grandson.
However, before 1300, it frequently meant kinsman (ditto neptis for
kinswoman). As such, unless you have better documentation, Round
withstanding, it would be incorrect to call William de la Mare the
nephew of Walter of Gloucester. Rather, it would be best to simply
call William de la Mare Walter's kinsman, and leave it at that.
Here are three typical examples of nepos/neptis meaning
kinsman/kinswoman in records before 1300:
1. Sibyl de Falaise was styled “neptisâ€
-
Gjest
Re: De la Mare of Little Hereford
Interesting!
Have any of you managed to find any linkage to the Isabella
*supposedly* de La Mare Carrew (d. 1432ish I think) who was the first
wife of Nicholas Carrew (of Beddington... ahh, it was HE who died ca.
1432!)?
I really don't think she's a de la Mare based upon the heraldry on her
tomb (three Catherine wheels), but would love to be educated
otherwise...
Thanks for any info you can offer...
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
On Jan 25, 9:55 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
Have any of you managed to find any linkage to the Isabella
*supposedly* de La Mare Carrew (d. 1432ish I think) who was the first
wife of Nicholas Carrew (of Beddington... ahh, it was HE who died ca.
1432!)?
I really don't think she's a de la Mare based upon the heraldry on her
tomb (three Catherine wheels), but would love to be educated
otherwise...
Thanks for any info you can offer...
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com
On Jan 25, 9:55 am, ther...@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 25 January, 2007
Dear Adrian, et al.,
Way back in 2002, you had posted information accumulated concerning the de la Mare
family (or families), with an eye toward sorting out what relationship existed between
these individuals. I have noted a few pieces concerning one particular group, some of
whom were included in your research, which may help in constructing one pedigree and
removing these individuals from contention for membership elsewhere (e.g., de la Mare
of Ashtead).
Round, in Ancient Charters (Pipe Roll Soc. vol. X) published a charter which he
dated "Circ. A.D. 1123",
' Notification that Walter de Gloucester has given to his nephew William
de Mare Little Hereford in fee, to be held by the service of two knights. ' [1]
The abbreviations and markings are virtually impossible to replicate, but
" Walt' de Gloec' dedisse Will'o de Mara nepoti suo parua heref' " is clearly
determinable from the text [not having basis for doubting Round here, anyway]. Round
goes on to say in notes on p. 20,
' The present charter is a relic of a subsequent family arrangement, by
which the Manor of Little Hereford was transferred to a nephew of Walter,
his son's wife, Sybil, receiving for dower, in exchange, another manor. For
this arrangement was required the consent of three parties, Miles (Walter's
son and heir), his wife Sybil, and their heir. The forms in which the
consents of the two former are set forth should be observed. The consent
of the heir is represented by the appearance of Margaret, their daughter,
as a witness. Now this charter must be previous to the death of Walter de
Gloucester (circ. 1128) and to that of William de Mare. But the latter
had been succeeded by his son Robert, and he in turn by his brother Henry,
when we come to the Pipe Roll of 1129/1130........ The date assigned
in the official calendar is "1135-1143." ' [2]
From Round's description, this sounds like Robert and Henry de la Mare,
two individuals whom you noted in Domesday Descendants holding land in Oxon. in
1129-1130. You had also noted an Oliver de la Mare, of Little Hereford, who
fl. 1166, also in DD [3].
There is a large gap in time until I see a Reginald de la Mare being seated
at Little Hereford; he was allegedly father of Sir Peter de la Mare, Speaker of
the House of Commons in 1376, knight of the shire for Herefordshire, 1376-1383
and sheriff of Herefordshire, 1372-3 [4]. These gaps notwithstanding, this is
the rough chart I can visualize at present:
William de la Mare
of Little Hereford
nepos of Walter de Gloucester
I
________I_____________
I I
[DD571: [DD571: HENRY de MARA; In
ROBERT de the 1129/30 Pipe Roll held
MARA; (-in land in Oxon from his father
1129/30) His and serjeanty of hawking and
br Henry suc land from his br Robert]
to his land in [Cleveland: on the death of
Oxon] his father paid a fine for
the office of "Veltrare" or
huntsman]
I
I
V
[DD571: OLIVER de MARA
In 1166 held two fees of Harscoit Musard;
Ld of Little Hereford]
I
I
V
Sir Reginald de la Mare
of Little Hereford
I
I
Sir Peter de la Mare
(d. ca. 1288/1400)
I hope this is of some use, directly or indirectly.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] J. H. Round, ed., Ancient Charters, Royal and Private, Prior to A.D. 1200:
Pipe Roll Soc. Pub., vol. X (London: Wyman & Sons, 1888), I:19-20.
[2] Ibid., p. 20.
[3] Adrian Channing, <early de la Mare family>, SGM, 3 Nov 2002. See Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants, p. 571.
[4] Helena Mary Chew, The English Ecclesiastical Tenants-in-Chief and Knight
Service (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1932), p. 136, note 1:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, p. 76. The service was rendered by John de
la Mare, Nicholas de Wormele, William de Caple, knights,....
p. 143 note 2:
' Register of Bishop Swinfield, pp. 308 et seq. Bonds executed by William,
Lord of How Capele, Reginald de la Mare, Lord of Little Hereford, and
Robert Petit, Lord of Dudley.'
Michael A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England, provides the
following:
' SIR PETER DE LA MARE was the first known speaker of the House of
Commons in 1376 and was speaker again next year. Apart from these
hightlights, his career is remarkably obscure. His date of birth is
not known, but he was apparently son of Sir Reginald de la Mare and
lord of Little Hereford and Yatton in Herefordshire. '
* John P. Ravilious
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.