Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud Sta

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Clagett, Brice

Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud Sta

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 18 jan 2007 01:07:08

Mr. Higgins is probably right in proposing to identify
Thomas Fouleshurst of Leicestershire with the Thomas Foules-
hurst of Crewe, Cheshire (1396-1437/8) who married Cecily
Mainwaring. (If he also married Joan Fitzpiers, she must have
been the first wife, since Cecily, as the widow of Thomas, re-
married.)

Are there any inconsistencies that would show that this
Thomas of Crewe and Thomas of Leicestershire were
not the same man?

Acheson appears to show one when he says that Thomas of
Leicestershire was living in January 1439. Thomas of Crewe
died on June 24 (the vigil of the birth of John Baptist) in
either 1438 or 1439. (We can't be sure which without
consulting the ipm; unfortunately Ormerod gives regnal
years, not dates, for ipms.) But in fact Acheson is wrong
on this point. The CPR entry he cites is dated Jan. 1437/8,
not 1439. Thus the last reference to the Leicestershire man
ties in very well with the death of the Cheshire man.

The one very odd thing about the identification is that
Thomas of Crewe was born at Glenfield, Leicestershire,
whereas Acheson says he came to Leicestershire by
virtue of his marriage with Joan, daughter and heir of
Baldwin Fitzpiers of Glenfield. .

The ipm of Sir Thomas Fulleshurst, father of Thomas, as
reported by Ormerod, shows that Thomas the son was
aged 21 in 5 Henry V and was already married to Cecily.
If he had previously married Joan Fitzpiers, the chrono-
logy is very tight. And unless Joan had produced live
issue before her early death, Thomas would have lost
the Fitzpiers estates on her death and would not have
had a subsequent history in Leicestershire.

The widow of Sir Thomas of Fulleshurst, father of Thomas,
was named Joan. Possibly Acheson was wrong and it
was Thomas of Leicestershire's mother, rather than his
wife, who was the Fitzpiers heiress? Chronology of the
Fitzpiers family, if available, might shed light. Ormerod
had said that Sir Thomas married Eva, daughter of
Hugh Venables. The editor notes that the widow was
Joan but does not resolve the inconsistency.

Sutliff

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud

Legg inn av Sutliff » 18 jan 2007 22:42:45

"Clagett, Brice" <bclagett@cov.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1635.1169078951.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

<snip>

The widow of Sir Thomas of Fulleshurst, father of Thomas, was named Joan.
Possibly Acheson was wrong and it was Thomas of Leicestershire's mother,
rather than his wife, who was the Fitzpiers heiress? Chronology of the
Fitzpiers family, if available, might shed light. Ormerod had said that
Sir Thomas married Eva, daughter of Hugh Venables. The editor notes that the
widow was Joan but does not resolve the inconsistency.

Brice,

I believe you are correct in pointing out the possbility that the Thomas
Fouleshurt/Fulleshurst, husband of Joan Fitzpiers, may well be Thomas
(1369-1403/3), the father of Thomas (1396-1437). I believe Joan the widow of
the elder Thomas died 1415-1416.

It would seem that more research into the Fitzpiers family of Leicestershire
is necessary, as you suggest, to more conclusively arrive at an answer. It
would seem your point that the chronology of the younger Thomas being
married to Joan is very tight indeed with his mariage to Cecily Mainwaring
by the age of 21. Even more compelling is your point is that the younger
Thomas retained the Fitzpiers properties which he would not have done
without issue by Joan. However, if the younger Thomas was son of Joan
Fitzpiers, this would seem the answer.

I do not have a birthdate for Cecily, but note that her half-siblings from
her mother Margery Venables' first marriage to Richard Bulkeley were: Alice
(b. 1387), Margery (b. 1388), Clemence (b. 1389) and Richard born
posthumously in 1391. Margery then went on to produce at least nine children
(Sir John [wife Margaret Delves of Doddington], William [wife Margaret
Warren of Ightfield], Randle [wife Margaret Savage of Clifton], Margaret
[husband William Bromley of Badington], Cecily, Elizabeth [husband Ralph
Egerton of Wrinehill], Joan [husband John Davenport of Davenport], Ellen
[husband Thomas Fitton of Gawsworth] and Agnes [? unmarried]) by Randle
Mainwaring d. 1456 including Cecily, but I do not know her placement among
them. I would also note that Margery Venables was a daughter of a Hugh
Venables of Kinderton so perhaps Ormerod was confused as there does not seem
to have been a Hugh of the correct age to have been Eva's father? Perhaps
the elder Thomas was only married to Joan.

The younger Thomas' elder son Sir Robert d. 1498, was born 1418 and his
brother Peter d. aft 1494 sometime after. As neither Thomas had particuarly
long lives, it may be that Acheson confused which Thomas was married to Joan
Fitzpiers. Your points are well made.

Hap Sutliff

P. S. Perhaps another individual who ought ot be researched is John Curzon
of Croxhall, Derbyshire, second husband of Cecily.

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