Fw: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skilled i

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skilled i

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 jan 2007 12:41:00

Why is Richardson continuing on this mess about cross back or crouchback?

He is simply creating a distraction, a distraction away from his use of
Black Prince in his book.

He maintains that the name 'Crouchback', in whatever meaning, should not be
associated with Edmund of Lancaster because it was not used in his lifetime.
If that is the measure stick, how about Black Prince? Surely there is a
Primary source from the time of this Prince of Wales which calls him 'the
Black Prince' as the oh so principled Douglas Richardson would not have used
the term in his book. And as he did use it, he must have that elusive
primary record. All he needs to do is provide it.

If he can't with the Black Prince, he looses credibility with his continuing
saga about not using Crouchback. If Crouchback/Crossback is a nono by
Richardson so should be Black Prince. You cannot have a rule on the hand and
a different one on the other hand, because then there is no rule at all. But
doesn't that describe Richardson?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skilled in arms


gbh wrote:

Is there any evidence for the claim that Crouhback could have meant
"wearing a cross on the back"?

Dear gbh ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

I've seen many references to crusaders in English medieval records.
I've never encountered any of them being styled or nicknamed either
"crossback" or "crouchback." I have, however, frequently seen the
phrase "taking the cross" which refers to people who had taken a vow to
go on crusade.

The following information on "taking the cross" is taken from an
internet website
(http://www.florilegium.org/files/NICOLA ... e-art.html):

" 'Taking the Cross' probably involved swearing a public oath over the
relics, and then sewing a linen cross (red or white, depending on the
particular crusade) to the shoulder of one's cloak. After this, a
person was designated a crusignatus (sometimes wrongly translated as
Crusader.). Lists of these people were kept in England by the Crown
(as well as by the Church), because their legal status changed.
Normally there were restrictions placed upon disposing of large amounts
of property; these were lifted in the case of those preparing for
crusade. Bilking crusignatus in a deal also gained one an extra
penalty in canon law. Provision was also made for wives and children
of crusaders should they be killed or lost while on crusade. The other
reason for keeping the lists was to keep track of who had not fulfilled
their oath..." END OF QUOTE.

As for actual carriage, character, and personality of Prince Edmund, I
believe the information below bears repeating.

Coat of Arms, 7 (1962): 18-24, 157-161; 10 (1969): 260-275
("... was of a gay and pleasant disposition... a generous and popular
prince, observant in religion like all his family and a keen business
man in the management of his vast estates").

Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7-9 (biog. of
Edmund Crouchback: "Unfaltering loyalty and unstinting service
characterised his career... a princely giver and spender of money...
"the epithet 'Crouchback'... is not given to him by any
contemporary chronicler... for all that we know of him points to his
having been both handsome and skilled in arms.").

Popular, handsome, skilled in arms - Edmund doesn't exactly sound like
the Hunchback of Notre Dame, does he? As best as I can tell, the
"crouchback" legend is a myth spun out of political propaganda
circulating around the year, 1400. Since Prince Edmund and his fellow
contemporaries had been dead and in their graves for over a hundred
years, the nickname Crouchback was obviously was not anything Edmund
meritted in his lifetime. As such, I believe it's time we put the myth
to rest.

Accuracy in history is far more important than our cherished and ill
founded notions of "the good old days." Unless, of course, we
subscribe to the viewpoint of the propaganda meister, Joseph Goebbels.
Then we can believe whatever lie we fancy - the bigger the lie, the
better. And it doesn't cost anyone anything except the truth. Now
that's a bargain!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Gjest

Re: Fw: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skill

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 jan 2007 16:46:37

In the Dictionary of National Biography VI:509-510 gives a good take on
the name "the Black Prince" and how and where the appellation comes
from. No contemporary sources are cited and it is held by tradition.
The tradition being that he was bedecked in black armour at the Battle
of Crecy. One record is noted from 2 Richard II as being the closest
to the Black Prince's time.

Martin

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Why is Richardson continuing on this mess about cross back or crouchback?

He is simply creating a distraction, a distraction away from his use of
Black Prince in his book.

He maintains that the name 'Crouchback', in whatever meaning, should not be
associated with Edmund of Lancaster because it was not used in his lifetime.
If that is the measure stick, how about Black Prince? Surely there is a
Primary source from the time of this Prince of Wales which calls him 'the
Black Prince' as the oh so principled Douglas Richardson would not have used
the term in his book. And as he did use it, he must have that elusive
primary record. All he needs to do is provide it.

If he can't with the Black Prince, he looses credibility with his continuing
saga about not using Crouchback. If Crouchback/Crossback is a nono by
Richardson so should be Black Prince. You cannot have a rule on the hand and
a different one on the other hand, because then there is no rule at all. But
doesn't that describe Richardson?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skilled in arms


gbh wrote:

Is there any evidence for the claim that Crouhback could have meant
"wearing a cross on the back"?

Dear gbh ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

I've seen many references to crusaders in English medieval records.
I've never encountered any of them being styled or nicknamed either
"crossback" or "crouchback." I have, however, frequently seen the
phrase "taking the cross" which refers to people who had taken a vow to
go on crusade.

The following information on "taking the cross" is taken from an
internet website
(http://www.florilegium.org/files/NICOLA ... e-art.html):

" 'Taking the Cross' probably involved swearing a public oath over the
relics, and then sewing a linen cross (red or white, depending on the
particular crusade) to the shoulder of one's cloak. After this, a
person was designated a crusignatus (sometimes wrongly translated as
Crusader.). Lists of these people were kept in England by the Crown
(as well as by the Church), because their legal status changed.
Normally there were restrictions placed upon disposing of large amounts
of property; these were lifted in the case of those preparing for
crusade. Bilking crusignatus in a deal also gained one an extra
penalty in canon law. Provision was also made for wives and children
of crusaders should they be killed or lost while on crusade. The other
reason for keeping the lists was to keep track of who had not fulfilled
their oath..." END OF QUOTE.

As for actual carriage, character, and personality of Prince Edmund, I
believe the information below bears repeating.

Coat of Arms, 7 (1962): 18-24, 157-161; 10 (1969): 260-275
("... was of a gay and pleasant disposition... a generous and popular
prince, observant in religion like all his family and a keen business
man in the management of his vast estates").

Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7-9 (biog. of
Edmund Crouchback: "Unfaltering loyalty and unstinting service
characterised his career... a princely giver and spender of money...
"the epithet 'Crouchback'... is not given to him by any
contemporary chronicler... for all that we know of him points to his
having been both handsome and skilled in arms.").

Popular, handsome, skilled in arms - Edmund doesn't exactly sound like
the Hunchback of Notre Dame, does he? As best as I can tell, the
"crouchback" legend is a myth spun out of political propaganda
circulating around the year, 1400. Since Prince Edmund and his fellow
contemporaries had been dead and in their graves for over a hundred
years, the nickname Crouchback was obviously was not anything Edmund
meritted in his lifetime. As such, I believe it's time we put the myth
to rest.

Accuracy in history is far more important than our cherished and ill
founded notions of "the good old days." Unless, of course, we
subscribe to the viewpoint of the propaganda meister, Joseph Goebbels.
Then we can believe whatever lie we fancy - the bigger the lie, the
better. And it doesn't cost anyone anything except the truth. Now
that's a bargain!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo van de Pas

Black Prince was Re: Fw: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 jan 2007 20:37:13

----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster - Popular, handsome, skilled in
arms


In the Dictionary of National Biography VI:509-510 gives a good take on
the name "the Black Prince" and how and where the appellation comes
from. No contemporary sources are cited and it is held by tradition.
The tradition being that he was bedecked in black armour at the Battle
of Crecy. One record is noted from 2 Richard II as being the closest
to the Black Prince's time.

Martin
-------------

Dear Martin,
....."One record is noted from 2 Richard II as being the closest to the Black
Prince's time" Do you know which record this is and what it actually said?
I found another description :

Although Edward is always now called "the Black Prince", he was never known
as such during his lifetime. He was instead known as Edward of Woodstock,
afterf the place of his birth, The "black Prince" moniker does not appear in
writing until at least 200 years after Edward's death. Its origin is
uncertain; according to tradition, it derived from an ornate black cuirass
(piece of body armour) presented to the young prince by Edward III at the
battle of Crecy. However, it is also possible that the name was first coined
by French chroniclers in reference to the tumultuous defeats he had
inflicted on France or his cruelty in these. One apocryphal etymology of the
name has it deriving from the blackness of Edward's tomb effigy from dirt
and/or black polish, when it is in fact shiny metal now, although it may
have been tarnished or polished before.

I think it would be great if Martin can establish which document, only a few
years after the death, refers to him as the Black Prince.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

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