Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanl

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Brad Verity

Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanl

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 15 jan 2007 19:11:18

Joël Merckelbagh kindly brought a Turville/Ferrers marriage to my
attention - I had not been aware of it.

William George Dimack Fletcher in his 1887 book 'Leicestershire
Pedigrees and Royal Descents', has Sir William Turville of Aston
Flamville, Leics. (d. 1549) married to Helen Ferrers, daughter of Sir
John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (d. 1509) and Dorothy Harper.

From 'A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the Fifteenth Century,
c.1422-c.1485' by Eric Acheson [Cambridge University Press, 2003], pp.

254-255:

"The family of Turville acquired the manor of Aston Flamville by the
marriage before 1399 of Richard Turville to Katherine, daughter and
heir of Sir William Flamville. Richard's son, also Richard, married
Margaret Bugge, sister and heir of Baldwin. This Richard died about
1435 but the much married Margaret lived until 1474. At her death, her
grandson, John Turville, inherited her manors of Normanton Turville,
Thurlaston, Stoke Golding, Wigston Magna and Croft. John was the son
of William Turville and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas
Fouleshurst. John married Katherine, daughter and coheir of Thomas
Staunton who bore him six children before his death in 1506. Very
occasionally, the name Turville appears among the lists of
Leicestershire electors, including Richard Turville who helped to elect
his brother-in-law, Baldwin Bugge, in 1426.
However, between 1422 and 1485, no member of the family served in any
office within the shire."

William Turville, esquire, of Aston Flamville and Normanton Turville,
Leicestershire (c.1483-1549), was the eldest son and heir of John
Turville and Katherine Staunton. But his first wife, Helen Ferrers
(said to have died 1508), could not have been the daughter of John
Ferrers II of Tamworth (d. 1512) and Dorothy Harpur, as Helen was a
mother by 1502, and John and Dorothy's son and heir Humphrey Ferrers
was born about 1497. Instead, Helen fits in better chronologically as
daughter of Sir John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud Stanley.

That there was a connection between the Ferrers of Tamworth and
Turville of Aston Flamville families is proven by Sir John Ferrers II
making William Turville a feoffee in 1508, in the following grant that
Will Johnson had posted to the newsgroup last year:

Birmingham City Archives: Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire
(Baron Norton) [MS 917/1073 - MS 917A/174]
Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire (Baron Norton)
Catalogue Ref. MS 917
Creator(s): Adderley family, Barons Norton of Fillongley, Warwickshire
TITLE DEEDS TO LAND
Warwickshire
Conventry
Stivichall
FILE - Grant. John Ferrers, knt., to Walter Gryffyth, knt., William
Turvyll, esq., John Curson of Croxsale [Croxall, co. Staff.], esq.,
William Chetwyn, esq., William Boughton, esq., Christopher
Seyntg[er]man, gent., Nicholas Harpur, gent., and Henry Boughton, gent.

Manor of Stichehalle [Stivichall] near Coventre [Conventry, co. War.]
and le Marston [Lea Marston, co. War.], and half of the Manor of
Horborowe [Harborough] co. War., with appurtenances, etc. to hold to
the use of the said Sir John and Dorothy his wife; also half of a
pasture called le Hames, in Le Marston, to hold to the use of Roger
Ferrers, his uncle. (Please order number 110) - ref. MS 917/1840 -
date: 5 October 24 Hen VII[1508]

The fact that William Turville is listed immediately following Sir
Walter Griffith (a known brother-in-law of John Ferrers II), and before
William Chetwynd, esquire (another known brother-in-law of John Ferrers
II) lends support to William Turville also being a brother-in-law of
John Ferrers II, though definitive proof remains to be seen.

This would add yet another family - the Turvilles of Normanton
Turville, Leics. - to the list of families that have, by the early
1500s, gateway ancestor William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby
(1333-1371), as their sole link to a descent from Edward I. The other
families include:
Browne of Snelston
Chetwynd of Alspath and Ingestre, Staffordshire
Clerke of Forde Hall, Kent
Coke of Trusley, Derbyshire
Cotton of Oxenhoath, Kent
Ferrers of Tamworth and of Baddesley Clinton
Giffard of Chillington, Staffordshire
Gresley of Drakelow, Derbyshire
Griffith of Burton Agnes, Yorkshire
Holt of Grislehurst
Leigh of Stockwell, Surrey
Longford of Longford, Derbyshire

Cheers, -------Brad

Leo van de Pas

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 15 jan 2007 22:04:17

Dear Brad,

This is wonderful information. Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle and his
wife Dorothy Harper are of interest to me.
Their other daughter Elizabeth is an ancestor of Prince Charles.

In his monumental book on the ancestors of Prince Charles, Gerald Paget
gives that Sir John was born in 1474 and died in 1513 (you have 1509).

He spells the surname of Dorothy as Harpur. He records her as daughter of
William Harpur, of Rushall and Margaret daughter of Henry Cook of Catthorp.

Hope this is of interest.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:11 AM
Subject: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanley


Joël Merckelbagh kindly brought a Turville/Ferrers marriage to my
attention - I had not been aware of it.

William George Dimack Fletcher in his 1887 book 'Leicestershire
Pedigrees and Royal Descents', has Sir William Turville of Aston
Flamville, Leics. (d. 1549) married to Helen Ferrers, daughter of Sir
John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (d. 1509) and Dorothy Harper.

From 'A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the Fifteenth Century,
c.1422-c.1485' by Eric Acheson [Cambridge University Press, 2003], pp.

254-255:

"The family of Turville acquired the manor of Aston Flamville by the
marriage before 1399 of Richard Turville to Katherine, daughter and
heir of Sir William Flamville. Richard's son, also Richard, married
Margaret Bugge, sister and heir of Baldwin. This Richard died about
1435 but the much married Margaret lived until 1474. At her death, her
grandson, John Turville, inherited her manors of Normanton Turville,
Thurlaston, Stoke Golding, Wigston Magna and Croft. John was the son
of William Turville and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas
Fouleshurst. John married Katherine, daughter and coheir of Thomas
Staunton who bore him six children before his death in 1506. Very
occasionally, the name Turville appears among the lists of
Leicestershire electors, including Richard Turville who helped to elect
his brother-in-law, Baldwin Bugge, in 1426.
However, between 1422 and 1485, no member of the family served in any
office within the shire."

William Turville, esquire, of Aston Flamville and Normanton Turville,
Leicestershire (c.1483-1549), was the eldest son and heir of John
Turville and Katherine Staunton. But his first wife, Helen Ferrers
(said to have died 1508), could not have been the daughter of John
Ferrers II of Tamworth (d. 1512) and Dorothy Harpur, as Helen was a
mother by 1502, and John and Dorothy's son and heir Humphrey Ferrers
was born about 1497. Instead, Helen fits in better chronologically as
daughter of Sir John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud Stanley.

That there was a connection between the Ferrers of Tamworth and
Turville of Aston Flamville families is proven by Sir John Ferrers II
making William Turville a feoffee in 1508, in the following grant that
Will Johnson had posted to the newsgroup last year:

Birmingham City Archives: Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire
(Baron Norton) [MS 917/1073 - MS 917A/174]
Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire (Baron Norton)
Catalogue Ref. MS 917
Creator(s): Adderley family, Barons Norton of Fillongley, Warwickshire
TITLE DEEDS TO LAND
Warwickshire
Conventry
Stivichall
FILE - Grant. John Ferrers, knt., to Walter Gryffyth, knt., William
Turvyll, esq., John Curson of Croxsale [Croxall, co. Staff.], esq.,
William Chetwyn, esq., William Boughton, esq., Christopher
Seyntg[er]man, gent., Nicholas Harpur, gent., and Henry Boughton, gent.

Manor of Stichehalle [Stivichall] near Coventre [Conventry, co. War.]
and le Marston [Lea Marston, co. War.], and half of the Manor of
Horborowe [Harborough] co. War., with appurtenances, etc. to hold to
the use of the said Sir John and Dorothy his wife; also half of a
pasture called le Hames, in Le Marston, to hold to the use of Roger
Ferrers, his uncle. (Please order number 110) - ref. MS 917/1840 -
date: 5 October 24 Hen VII[1508]

The fact that William Turville is listed immediately following Sir
Walter Griffith (a known brother-in-law of John Ferrers II), and before
William Chetwynd, esquire (another known brother-in-law of John Ferrers
II) lends support to William Turville also being a brother-in-law of
John Ferrers II, though definitive proof remains to be seen.

This would add yet another family - the Turvilles of Normanton
Turville, Leics. - to the list of families that have, by the early
1500s, gateway ancestor William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby
(1333-1371), as their sole link to a descent from Edward I. The other
families include:
Browne of Snelston
Chetwynd of Alspath and Ingestre, Staffordshire
Clerke of Forde Hall, Kent
Coke of Trusley, Derbyshire
Cotton of Oxenhoath, Kent
Ferrers of Tamworth and of Baddesley Clinton
Giffard of Chillington, Staffordshire
Gresley of Drakelow, Derbyshire
Griffith of Burton Agnes, Yorkshire
Holt of Grislehurst
Leigh of Stockwell, Surrey
Longford of Longford, Derbyshire

Cheers, -------Brad


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John Brandon

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av John Brandon » 15 jan 2007 22:40:50

This would add yet another family - the Turvilles of Normanton
Turville, Leics. - to the list of families that have, by the early
1500s, gateway ancestor William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby
(1333-1371), as their sole link to a descent from Edward I. The other
families include:
Browne of Snelston
Chetwynd of Alspath and Ingestre, Staffordshire
Clerke of Forde Hall, Kent
Coke of Trusley, Derbyshire
Cotton of Oxenhoath, Kent
Ferrers of Tamworth and of Baddesley Clinton
Giffard of Chillington, Staffordshire
Gresley of Drakelow, Derbyshire
Griffith of Burton Agnes, Yorkshire
Holt of Grislehurst
Leigh of Stockwell, Surrey
Longford of Longford, Derbyshire

Weren't the Brownes of Snelston ancestral to Nathaniel Browne of CT?
If he shares this connection, it would be a massive 'upgrade' to his
royal descent ...

Gjest

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jan 2007 22:45:17

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Brad,

This is wonderful information. Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle and his
wife Dorothy Harper are of interest to me.
Their other daughter Elizabeth is an ancestor of Prince Charles.

Dear Leo,

You must mean Elizabeth who married Sir William Chetwynd; however, Will
Johnson posted another reference last year that showed she was in fact
sister of that John Ferrers and daughter of the elder John, see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1137891601
and following posts.

Brad made a passing reference to this below:

The fact that William Turville is listed immediately following Sir
Walter Griffith (a known brother-in-law of John Ferrers II), and before
William Chetwynd, esquire (another known brother-in-law of John Ferrers
II) lends support to William Turville also being a brother-in-law of
John Ferrers II, though definitive proof remains to be seen.

-Matthew

John Higgins

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av John Higgins » 15 jan 2007 23:47:33

This Turville/Ferrers marriage is also mentioned in Turville pedigrees in
two separate volumes of Nichols' "History and Antiquities of
Leicestershire", probably based on a visitation pedigree. It's also
mentioned in the [less-than-reliable] Burke's Commoners. All these
references indicate that Helen/Ellen was the first wife of Sir William
Turvile and dau. of Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth - but they don't indicate
her mother.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanley


Joël Merckelbagh kindly brought a Turville/Ferrers marriage to my
attention - I had not been aware of it.

William George Dimack Fletcher in his 1887 book 'Leicestershire
Pedigrees and Royal Descents', has Sir William Turville of Aston
Flamville, Leics. (d. 1549) married to Helen Ferrers, daughter of Sir
John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (d. 1509) and Dorothy Harper.

From 'A Gentry Community: Leicestershire in the Fifteenth Century,
c.1422-c.1485' by Eric Acheson [Cambridge University Press, 2003], pp.

254-255:

"The family of Turville acquired the manor of Aston Flamville by the
marriage before 1399 of Richard Turville to Katherine, daughter and
heir of Sir William Flamville. Richard's son, also Richard, married
Margaret Bugge, sister and heir of Baldwin. This Richard died about
1435 but the much married Margaret lived until 1474. At her death, her
grandson, John Turville, inherited her manors of Normanton Turville,
Thurlaston, Stoke Golding, Wigston Magna and Croft. John was the son
of William Turville and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas
Fouleshurst. John married Katherine, daughter and coheir of Thomas
Staunton who bore him six children before his death in 1506. Very
occasionally, the name Turville appears among the lists of
Leicestershire electors, including Richard Turville who helped to elect
his brother-in-law, Baldwin Bugge, in 1426.
However, between 1422 and 1485, no member of the family served in any
office within the shire."

William Turville, esquire, of Aston Flamville and Normanton Turville,
Leicestershire (c.1483-1549), was the eldest son and heir of John
Turville and Katherine Staunton. But his first wife, Helen Ferrers
(said to have died 1508), could not have been the daughter of John
Ferrers II of Tamworth (d. 1512) and Dorothy Harpur, as Helen was a
mother by 1502, and John and Dorothy's son and heir Humphrey Ferrers
was born about 1497. Instead, Helen fits in better chronologically as
daughter of Sir John Ferrers I of Tamworth and Maud Stanley.

That there was a connection between the Ferrers of Tamworth and
Turville of Aston Flamville families is proven by Sir John Ferrers II
making William Turville a feoffee in 1508, in the following grant that
Will Johnson had posted to the newsgroup last year:

Birmingham City Archives: Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire
(Baron Norton) [MS 917/1073 - MS 917A/174]
Adderley family of Hams Hall, Warwickshire (Baron Norton)
Catalogue Ref. MS 917
Creator(s): Adderley family, Barons Norton of Fillongley, Warwickshire
TITLE DEEDS TO LAND
Warwickshire
Conventry
Stivichall
FILE - Grant. John Ferrers, knt., to Walter Gryffyth, knt., William
Turvyll, esq., John Curson of Croxsale [Croxall, co. Staff.], esq.,
William Chetwyn, esq., William Boughton, esq., Christopher
Seyntg[er]man, gent., Nicholas Harpur, gent., and Henry Boughton, gent.

Manor of Stichehalle [Stivichall] near Coventre [Conventry, co. War.]
and le Marston [Lea Marston, co. War.], and half of the Manor of
Horborowe [Harborough] co. War., with appurtenances, etc. to hold to
the use of the said Sir John and Dorothy his wife; also half of a
pasture called le Hames, in Le Marston, to hold to the use of Roger
Ferrers, his uncle. (Please order number 110) - ref. MS 917/1840 -
date: 5 October 24 Hen VII[1508]

The fact that William Turville is listed immediately following Sir
Walter Griffith (a known brother-in-law of John Ferrers II), and before
William Chetwynd, esquire (another known brother-in-law of John Ferrers
II) lends support to William Turville also being a brother-in-law of
John Ferrers II, though definitive proof remains to be seen.

This would add yet another family - the Turvilles of Normanton
Turville, Leics. - to the list of families that have, by the early
1500s, gateway ancestor William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby
(1333-1371), as their sole link to a descent from Edward I. The other
families include:
Browne of Snelston
Chetwynd of Alspath and Ingestre, Staffordshire
Clerke of Forde Hall, Kent
Coke of Trusley, Derbyshire
Cotton of Oxenhoath, Kent
Ferrers of Tamworth and of Baddesley Clinton
Giffard of Chillington, Staffordshire
Gresley of Drakelow, Derbyshire
Griffith of Burton Agnes, Yorkshire
Holt of Grislehurst
Leigh of Stockwell, Surrey
Longford of Longford, Derbyshire

Cheers, -------Brad


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Leo van de Pas

Chetwynd question was Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 jan 2007 00:04:31

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:11 AM
Subject: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanley

Brad Verity set me off in the pursuit of more descendants. He mentioned the
Chetwynd family and Burke's Peerage, 1938 page 558, shows Sir William
Chetwynd of Alspath who married ca.29 September 1490 Elizabeth Ferrers. They
are shown with three children

1.Thomas
2.Anthony
3.Mary

According to Burke's system of showing sons first, Mary could be the eldest
child, but the parents married in 1490, and Thomas is shown (by Paget) as
being born in 1509. 19 years after the marriage. To me this appears as
possible but unlikely. Did they have prior children dying in childhood? Does
anyone know?

With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Leo van de Pas

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 jan 2007 00:14:09

Many thanks, I must have missed that line (but then I have been busy last
year). Taking into account that Elizabeth married in 1490 she should have
been born before, say, 1475 and then to be daughter of someone born in 1474
makes me accept without further question. Many thanks
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud Stanley


Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Brad,

This is wonderful information. Sir John Ferrers of Tamworth Castle and
his
wife Dorothy Harper are of interest to me.
Their other daughter Elizabeth is an ancestor of Prince Charles.

Dear Leo,

You must mean Elizabeth who married Sir William Chetwynd; however, Will
Johnson posted another reference last year that showed she was in fact
sister of that John Ferrers and daughter of the elder John, see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1137891601
and following posts.

Brad made a passing reference to this below:

The fact that William Turville is listed immediately following Sir
Walter Griffith (a known brother-in-law of John Ferrers II), and before
William Chetwynd, esquire (another known brother-in-law of John Ferrers
II) lends support to William Turville also being a brother-in-law of
John Ferrers II, though definitive proof remains to be seen.

-Matthew


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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Brad Verity

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 16 jan 2007 04:15:08

John Brandon wrote:

Weren't the Brownes of Snelston ancestral to Nathaniel Browne of CT?
If he shares this connection, it would be a massive 'upgrade' to his
royal descent ...


Dear John,

The descent from Edward I is as follows:

Edward I (1239-1307), who had
Joan of Acre, countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had
Elizabeth de Clare, lady of Clare (1295-1360), who had
Isabel Verdun, Lady Ferrers of Groby (1317-1349), who had
William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby (1333-1371), who had
Henry Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1356-1388), who had
William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445), who had
Sir Thomas Ferrers I of Tamworth (c.1405-1459), who had
Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth (c.1422-1498), who had
Anne Ferrers m. 1478, Sir Thomas Gresley of Drakelow (1455-1503), and
had
Elizabeth Gresley m. 1) Sir John Montgomery of Cubley (d. 1513), and
had
Anne Montgomery (c.1509-c.1450/55) m. c.1523, John Browne of Snelston
(d. 1569)

Adrian Channing's post of November 2002 gives further particulars of
the above John Browne:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 3ab8086de2


I guess it depends from which of John Browne's three wives (Anne
Montgomery was his second) , if any, Nathaniel Browne of CT descends.

Cheers, --------Brad


John P. Ravilious

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 jan 2007 17:03:07

Dear Brad,

I fear there is a break in this descent.

You show:

Elizabeth Gresley m. 1) Sir John Montgomery of Cubley (d. 1513), and
had
Anne Montgomery (c.1509-c.1450/55) m. c.1523, John Browne of Snelston
(d. 1569)

According to my notes on the Montgomerys of Cubley (courtesy Rosie
Bevan and her fine research), I show that Sir John Montgomery of Cubley
did marry Elizabeth Gresley, but that he ob.s.p. in 1513; his heir was
his brother Ralph, who was possibly the father of your Anne Montgomery.

My own notes also show a pedigree in the Plea Rolls (Genealogist
XX:161-2) should confirm this. This was a case involving 'Ralph
Montgomery, Armiger' [Trinity 7. Hen. 8 m. 517].

Cheers,

John



Brad Verity wrote:
John Brandon wrote:


Weren't the Brownes of Snelston ancestral to Nathaniel Browne of CT?
If he shares this connection, it would be a massive 'upgrade' to his
royal descent ...


Dear John,

The descent from Edward I is as follows:

Edward I (1239-1307), who had
Joan of Acre, countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had
Elizabeth de Clare, lady of Clare (1295-1360), who had
Isabel Verdun, Lady Ferrers of Groby (1317-1349), who had
William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby (1333-1371), who had
Henry Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1356-1388), who had
William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445), who had
Sir Thomas Ferrers I of Tamworth (c.1405-1459), who had
Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth (c.1422-1498), who had
Anne Ferrers m. 1478, Sir Thomas Gresley of Drakelow (1455-1503), and
had
Elizabeth Gresley m. 1) Sir John Montgomery of Cubley (d. 1513), and
had
Anne Montgomery (c.1509-c.1450/55) m. c.1523, John Browne of Snelston
(d. 1569)

Adrian Channing's post of November 2002 gives further particulars of
the above John Browne:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 3ab8086de2


I guess it depends from which of John Browne's three wives (Anne
Montgomery was his second) , if any, Nathaniel Browne of CT descends.

Cheers, --------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 16 jan 2007 17:44:07

John P. Ravilious wrote:

I fear there is a break in this descent.

You show:

Elizabeth Gresley m. 1) Sir John Montgomery of Cubley (d. 1513), and
had
Anne Montgomery (c.1509-c.1450/55) m. c.1523, John Browne of Snelston
(d. 1569)

Whoops! Anne Montgomery's death date range should be 'c.1550/55', not
'c.1450/55'.

According to my notes on the Montgomerys of Cubley (courtesy Rosie
Bevan and her fine research), I show that Sir John Montgomery of Cubley
did marry Elizabeth Gresley, but that he ob.s.p. in 1513; his heir was
his brother Ralph, who was possibly the father of your Anne Montgomery.

Yes, I also took this descent from Rosie's great research, as Elizabeth
Gresley doesn't appear in Wotton's or Betham's accounts of the Gresleys
in their respective 'Baronetage of England's.

The relevant post from Rosie can be found here:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 1d7?hl=en&

Sir John Montgomery of Cubley died s.p.M., not s.p. His male heir was
his brother Ralph, who in turn died in 1517, without any issue, leaving
his nieces (Sir John's three daughters) as his heirs.

My own notes also show a pedigree in the Plea Rolls (Genealogist
XX:161-2) should confirm this. This was a case involving 'Ralph
Montgomery, Armiger' [Trinity 7. Hen. 8 m. 517].

Here is a transcript, from 'Pedigrees From the Plea Rolls' in 'The
Genealogist', New Series, Vol. 20 (1904), pp. 161-162:

"De Banco. Trinity. 7. Hen. 8. m. 517.
"Derb.---John Gifford, Kt., and Elizabeth, his wife, sued Ralph
Montgomery, Armiger, and John Hogekynson, clerk, for the next
presentation to the church of Cubley.
[snip of pedigree chart, which states Sir John Montgomery "ob.s.p.m."]
"Sir John Montgomery had enfeoffed Edward, Lord Hastynges and others in
the manor, and the feoffees had regranted it to Sir John Montgomery and
Elizabeth, his wife, and heirs male of the body of Sir John. The
latter had died, leaving no male issue, and Elizabeth claimed to hold
Cubley and the advowson of the church for her life. Sir John Gifford
was her second husband. A verdict was given in favour of Sir John
Giffard and Elizabeth at Assizes at Derby in 8 H. 8."

Cheers, ---------Brad

John P. Ravilious

Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 jan 2007 17:50:21

Dear Brad,

Glad you already had that portion of the descent resolved - sorry
for any consternation that almost ensued...

I hope the Browne/Montgomery link in the descent proves as sound.

Cheers,

John


Brad Verity wrote:
John P. Ravilious wrote:

I fear there is a break in this descent.

You show:

Elizabeth Gresley m. 1) Sir John Montgomery of Cubley (d. 1513), and
had
Anne Montgomery (c.1509-c.1450/55) m. c.1523, John Browne of Snelston
(d. 1569)

Whoops! Anne Montgomery's death date range should be 'c.1550/55', not
'c.1450/55'.

According to my notes on the Montgomerys of Cubley (courtesy Rosie
Bevan and her fine research), I show that Sir John Montgomery of Cubley
did marry Elizabeth Gresley, but that he ob.s.p. in 1513; his heir was
his brother Ralph, who was possibly the father of your Anne Montgomery.

Yes, I also took this descent from Rosie's great research, as Elizabeth
Gresley doesn't appear in Wotton's or Betham's accounts of the Gresleys
in their respective 'Baronetage of England's.

The relevant post from Rosie can be found here:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 1d7?hl=en&

Sir John Montgomery of Cubley died s.p.M., not s.p. His male heir was
his brother Ralph, who in turn died in 1517, without any issue, leaving
his nieces (Sir John's three daughters) as his heirs.

My own notes also show a pedigree in the Plea Rolls (Genealogist
XX:161-2) should confirm this. This was a case involving 'Ralph
Montgomery, Armiger' [Trinity 7. Hen. 8 m. 517].

Here is a transcript, from 'Pedigrees From the Plea Rolls' in 'The
Genealogist', New Series, Vol. 20 (1904), pp. 161-162:

"De Banco. Trinity. 7. Hen. 8. m. 517.
"Derb.---John Gifford, Kt., and Elizabeth, his wife, sued Ralph
Montgomery, Armiger, and John Hogekynson, clerk, for the next
presentation to the church of Cubley.
[snip of pedigree chart, which states Sir John Montgomery "ob.s.p.m."]
"Sir John Montgomery had enfeoffed Edward, Lord Hastynges and others in
the manor, and the feoffees had regranted it to Sir John Montgomery and
Elizabeth, his wife, and heirs male of the body of Sir John. The
latter had died, leaving no male issue, and Elizabeth claimed to hold
Cubley and the advowson of the church for her life. Sir John Gifford
was her second husband. A verdict was given in favour of Sir John
Giffard and Elizabeth at Assizes at Derby in 8 H. 8."

Cheers, ---------Brad

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