Regarding my prior discussion on this subject, I now believe that in
general all of the
Mansfields of Ireland were descended from the Norman familes of de
Mandeville. The exceptions would include some Maunsel / Mansel
families in originating in Leinster and
some actual Mansfield families desending from the Irish Mansfield
listed in Burkes Irish
Gentry.
The Norman family de Mandeville appears to have originated in Flanders
and settled in the Cotentin region of Normandy after this area was
given as a dowry at the time of the marriage
of Matilda of Flanders to Duke William in 1053. The colors of the
Mandeville coat of arms,
red and black as on those of Mandeville of Tipperary, are the same as
on the ancient coat
of arms for the town of Bruges in Flanders.
Mandeville of Tipperary
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Mandeville of Tipperary
In message of 14 Jan, mohearn_brightstar@yahoo.com wrote:
There is a non-sequitor here as heraldry was not invented until about 75
years later in 1125-1150.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Regarding my prior discussion on this subject, I now believe that in
general all of the
Mansfields of Ireland were descended from the Norman familes of de
Mandeville. The exceptions would include some Maunsel / Mansel
families in originating in Leinster and
some actual Mansfield families desending from the Irish Mansfield
listed in Burkes Irish
Gentry.
The Norman family de Mandeville appears to have originated in Flanders
and settled in the Cotentin region of Normandy after this area was
given as a dowry at the time of the marriage
of Matilda of Flanders to Duke William in 1053. The colors of the
Mandeville coat of arms,
red and black as on those of Mandeville of Tipperary, are the same as
on the ancient coat
of arms for the town of Bruges in Flanders.
There is a non-sequitor here as heraldry was not invented until about 75
years later in 1125-1150.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: Mandeville of Tipperary
There is no representation of cause and effect in the statement. It
only points out an obvious similiarity. More than likely, towns
displayed particular colors on flags. Heraldry began with teh
Crusades. That is why it flourished almost simultaneously in Germany,
France, Italy and Britain. The first crusade began in 1095 AD. I
don't know when heraldry began. That is more or less irrelevant.
On Jan 14, 4:00 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
only points out an obvious similiarity. More than likely, towns
displayed particular colors on flags. Heraldry began with teh
Crusades. That is why it flourished almost simultaneously in Germany,
France, Italy and Britain. The first crusade began in 1095 AD. I
don't know when heraldry began. That is more or less irrelevant.
On Jan 14, 4:00 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 14 Jan, mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com wrote:
Regarding my prior discussion on this subject, I now believe that in
general all of the
Mansfields of Ireland were descended from the Norman familes of de
Mandeville. The exceptions would include some Maunsel / Mansel
families in originating in Leinster and
some actual Mansfield families desending from the Irish Mansfield
listed in Burkes Irish
Gentry.
The Norman family de Mandeville appears to have originated in Flanders
and settled in the Cotentin region of Normandy after this area was
given as a dowry at the time of the marriage
of Matilda of Flanders to Duke William in 1053. The colors of the
Mandeville coat of arms,
red and black as on those of Mandeville of Tipperary, are the same as
on the ancient coat
of arms for the town of Bruges in Flanders.There is a non-sequitor here as heraldry was not invented until about 75
years later in 1125-1150.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Mandeville of Tipperary
In message of 16 Jan, mohearn_brightstar@yahoo.com wrote:
But it is not irrelevant to provide duff information.
First heraldry is not thought to have begun with the crusades.
Admittedly a hundred years ago a common view was that heraldry
originated on the battlefield. But since then there have been two other
views well expressed:
1. That heraldry began with tournaments. (Woodcock & Robinson, "The
Oxford Guide to Heraldry" pub OUP 1988, pp. 1-6 and subsequent)
2. That heraldry began with seals on documents to identify the parties
concerned in agreements. (Adrian Ailes, chapter on 'Heraldry in
Twelfth-Century England: the Evidence, as part of "England in the
Twelfth Century: Proceedings of the 1988 Harlaxton Symposium", pub
Boydell and Brewer 1990, pp. 1-16)
Perhaps it would be helpful to add that what both these accounts agree
on is that heraldry started in 1125-1150 and not before. Everyone
agrees that there was then a mushroom explosion of heraldry all over
Europe, it obviously filled a need.
The battlefield, not to mention the crusader, origin of heraldry has
been refuted by several authors and Woodcock and Robinson give their
opening pages to such a refutation.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
There is no representation of cause and effect in the statement. It
only points out an obvious similiarity. More than likely, towns
displayed particular colors on flags. Heraldry began with teh
Crusades. That is why it flourished almost simultaneously in Germany,
France, Italy and Britain. The first crusade began in 1095 AD. I
don't know when heraldry began. That is more or less irrelevant.
But it is not irrelevant to provide duff information.
First heraldry is not thought to have begun with the crusades.
Admittedly a hundred years ago a common view was that heraldry
originated on the battlefield. But since then there have been two other
views well expressed:
1. That heraldry began with tournaments. (Woodcock & Robinson, "The
Oxford Guide to Heraldry" pub OUP 1988, pp. 1-6 and subsequent)
2. That heraldry began with seals on documents to identify the parties
concerned in agreements. (Adrian Ailes, chapter on 'Heraldry in
Twelfth-Century England: the Evidence, as part of "England in the
Twelfth Century: Proceedings of the 1988 Harlaxton Symposium", pub
Boydell and Brewer 1990, pp. 1-16)
Perhaps it would be helpful to add that what both these accounts agree
on is that heraldry started in 1125-1150 and not before. Everyone
agrees that there was then a mushroom explosion of heraldry all over
Europe, it obviously filled a need.
The battlefield, not to mention the crusader, origin of heraldry has
been refuted by several authors and Woodcock and Robinson give their
opening pages to such a refutation.
On Jan 14, 4:00 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 14 Jan, mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com wrote:
Regarding my prior discussion on this subject, I now believe that in
general all of the
Mansfields of Ireland were descended from the Norman familes of de
Mandeville. The exceptions would include some Maunsel / Mansel
families in originating in Leinster and
some actual Mansfield families desending from the Irish Mansfield
listed in Burkes Irish
Gentry.
The Norman family de Mandeville appears to have originated in Flanders
and settled in the Cotentin region of Normandy after this area was
given as a dowry at the time of the marriage
of Matilda of Flanders to Duke William in 1053. The colors of the
Mandeville coat of arms,
red and black as on those of Mandeville of Tipperary, are the same as
on the ancient coat
of arms for the town of Bruges in Flanders.There is a non-sequitor here as heraldry was not invented until about 75
years later in 1125-1150.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: Mandeville of Tipperary
Regardless of when or why heraldry began, the point is that Mandeville
of the Cotentin Peninsula was Flemish from Belgium. Probably the
reason why the Normans brought in the Flemings after Duke William's
marriage to Matilda is because the Flemings were accustomed to hard
scrabble farming in Flanders (Vlaanderen meaning in Dutch something
like a wasteland, I believe) and the land in the Contentin Peninsula
was also extremely difficult to cultivate.
On Jan 16, 4:04 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
of the Cotentin Peninsula was Flemish from Belgium. Probably the
reason why the Normans brought in the Flemings after Duke William's
marriage to Matilda is because the Flemings were accustomed to hard
scrabble farming in Flanders (Vlaanderen meaning in Dutch something
like a wasteland, I believe) and the land in the Contentin Peninsula
was also extremely difficult to cultivate.
On Jan 16, 4:04 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 16 Jan, mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com wrote:
There is no representation of cause and effect in the statement. It
only points out an obvious similiarity. More than likely, towns
displayed particular colors on flags. Heraldry began with teh
Crusades. That is why it flourished almost simultaneously in Germany,
France, Italy and Britain. The first crusade began in 1095 AD. I
don't know when heraldry began. That is more or less irrelevant.But it is not irrelevant to provide duff information.
First heraldry is not thought to have begun with the crusades.
Admittedly a hundred years ago a common view was that heraldry
originated on the battlefield. But since then there have been two other
views well expressed:
1. That heraldry began with tournaments. (Woodcock & Robinson, "The
Oxford Guide to Heraldry" pub OUP 1988, pp. 1-6 and subsequent)
2. That heraldry began with seals on documents to identify the parties
concerned in agreements. (Adrian Ailes, chapter on 'Heraldry in
Twelfth-Century England: the Evidence, as part of "England in the
Twelfth Century: Proceedings of the 1988 Harlaxton Symposium", pub
Boydell and Brewer 1990, pp. 1-16)
Perhaps it would be helpful to add that what both these accounts agree
on is that heraldry started in 1125-1150 and not before. Everyone
agrees that there was then a mushroom explosion of heraldry all over
Europe, it obviously filled a need.
The battlefield, not to mention the crusader, origin of heraldry has
been refuted by several authors and Woodcock and Robinson give their
opening pages to such a refutation.
On Jan 14, 4:00 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 14 Jan, mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com wrote:
Regarding my prior discussion on this subject, I now believe that in
general all of the
Mansfields of Ireland were descended from the Norman familes of de
Mandeville. The exceptions would include some Maunsel / Mansel
families in originating in Leinster and
some actual Mansfield families desending from the Irish Mansfield
listed in Burkes Irish
Gentry.
The Norman family de Mandeville appears to have originated in Flanders
and settled in the Cotentin region of Normandy after this area was
given as a dowry at the time of the marriage
of Matilda of Flanders to Duke William in 1053. The colors of the
Mandeville coat of arms,
red and black as on those of Mandeville of Tipperary, are the same as
on the ancient coat
of arms for the town of Bruges in Flanders.There is a non-sequitor here as heraldry was not invented until about 75
years later in 1125-1150.--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
-
taf
Re: Mandeville of Tipperary
mohearn_brightstar@yahoo.com wrote:
What is your basis for attributing to the Anglo-Norman Mandeville
family a Flemish background?
taf
Regardless of when or why heraldry began, the point is that Mandeville
of the Cotentin Peninsula was Flemish from Belgium.
What is your basis for attributing to the Anglo-Norman Mandeville
family a Flemish background?
taf