Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, and all the others.
Can you start with Geoffrey of Anjou as Geoffrey Plantagenet (see
Plantagenet Ancestors by D. Richardson page xxviii, and page 1)
Can you follow up with Edward, Prince of Wales as the Black Prince (see PA
by Richardson page xxix , page 26 and 29)
Two quotes
Although Edward is almost always now called the "Black Prince", he was never
known as such during his lifetime. He was instead known as Edward of
Woodstock, after his place of birth. The "Black Prince" moniker does not
appear in writing until at least 200 years after Edward's death. Its origin
is uncertain, according to tradition, etc.
His nickname, the Black Prince, was not used before the 16th century and
probably derived from the black armour he is said to have worn.
I do not see it as a fishy tale, more like if it is good enough for the
goose it is good enough for the gander.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:20 PM
Subject: Accurate history vs. Fish stories
Leo van de Pas wrote:
You say it was John of Gent who changed the meaning? Elizabeth Hallam
maintains it was Henry IV who changed the meaning, indeed for
political reasons.
As I recall, it was a petition of John of Gaunt to Parliament that
contained the lies about Edmund, Earl of Lancaster. The petition
maintained that Prince Edmund was Henry III's eldest son, that he was
deformed, and that he was passed over for the succession by his younger
brother, Edward, due to his deformity. These were all patent lies.
John of Gaunt made these outrageous claims in order to bolster his
argument that his son and heir, Henry (who was Edmund's heir through
his mother), was the legitimate heir to the English throne, after his
nephew, King Richard II, of course.
Apparently (Elizabeth Hallam) Edmund became a crusader in 1271 and
since
then he had the nickname Crossback or Crouchback.
John of Gent wasn't born until 1340.
I haven't encountered any statement in contemporary records or any
chronicle which indicates that Prince Edmund had a nickname or that he
had a deformity. In fact, just the opposite. As far as I can tell,
if you are quoting her correctly, Ms. Hallam's statement about Prince
Edmund having a nickname is historically inaccurate.
You seem to be a lonely crusader to relieve Edmund from his nickname
Crossback, but it is a waste of time quoting sources who do call him
Crouchback. If I am not wrong, I did that not so long ago.
Feel free to quote all the contemporary primary records about Earl
Edmund you want. However, quoting from secondary sources such as
Hallam only clouds the real issue. If Hallam can't get her facts
straight, then neither can you quoting from her. Ditto the numerous
other secondary sources you rely on.
Accurate history depends first and foremost on primary documentation,
not on secondary sourcework or inaccurate charts found on the internet.
If we fail to document our statements with contemporary records, then
we might as well be telling fish stories to our children and
grandchildren.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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