Sir Eudes la Zouche and Another Question

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Sir Eudes la Zouche and Another Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jan 2007 01:17:21

Dear Douglas and All,

I am at a disadvantage since I do not know the property to which you (Douglas)refer concerning Eudes' de Quincy inheritance. I have identified properties in several of the lines and the origination of the inheritance but have no direct link in the case of Eudes. This is not to say that there were not two men, one older and a nephew as I suggested in the previous post.
While we attempt to solve this mystery perhaps someone will have the answer to the following.

In our Zouche discussions, I believe Douglas has concluded much about the William la Zouche of Essex. The following poses a question for me. I have asked if the Sheriff of Sussex was one and the same as the William of Essex but have received no observations. And, of course, there is still the question of William, father of Roger of Lubbesthorpe.

William la Zouche of Black Torrington, Devon was the son of Alan and Elena de Quincey. His son, Almaric was born in 1269 and was in the wardship of the King when he was declared of age in 1289. Almaric died in 1334. He left a son, Almaric, by Thomisina, and others.

William la Zouche of Black Torrington is mentioned in 1274: Devon Twigbear (Twykebeare, Twickebyar') 5 miles c. from Great Torrington: Sir William la Zusch

In 1281, William la Suche called to warranty Roger la Sushe, who stated that Black Torrington, with its market, had been held by Joelus del Meyne. It had been taken into the king?s hands and subsequently granted to Roger la Susche, his grandfather, to be held as it had been held by Joelus.

It is interesting to note that DDK/1400/12 11th January, 10 Edward III., A.D. 1335-6 Licence to settle the Manors of Bovy Tracy, Nymet Tracy and the fifth part of the Manor of Torrington (Devon) and the Manor of Blakedon (Somerset) on Philip de Columbarüs and Alianor his wife, since Oliver la Zouche had married Joan Cobham, widow of Michael Columbariis.

I would conclude that William of Black Torrington had died 1281-1289. In 1304 there is a "Common Pleas Trespass for disturbing a market" at Kelle, manor of (probably Kelly From White's Devonshire Directory of 1850 transcribed by Neil Stanton a pleasant scattered parish, 5 miles E.S.E. of Launceston, a parish in the hundred of Lifton, county Devon, 6 miles S.E. of Launceston, and 8 N.W. of Tavistock. Milton Abbot is its post town, archdeaconry of Totnes.)citing William la Zouche whose grandfather was A(lan?) la Zouche. IS THIS A BROTHER TO ALMARIC, IF ?A? (ALAN) WAS HIS GRANDFATHER?

However, if the William of Black Torrington was dead in 1289, then the William following who appears to have died by 1276 cannot be the same since the William of Essex who died in 1272 seems to have had no brother Henry. Who then is the William who was sheriff of Sussex?

Alan and Adeliza de Belmeis la Zouche had held interest in the Petworth area of Sussex since the late 12thc. In 1274 John la Zouche was rector of St. Mary's Church, West Chitlington, Sussex. In 1275, Roger la Zouche held three fees of Robert Montealto in Nutborne, Wulbedingg [alias Wolbeddyng] and Merston, Sussex. When Alan la Zouche died in 1313, "Sussex. Inq. 20 May 7 E II Treve. The manor with the advowson of the chapel 12l. yearly in rent in Nutburne, and the advowson of the church in Childyngton, held for life of the gift and grant of William Poor of Swaveseye, chaplain by fine levied in the kings court, with remainders to William la Zouche of Richard?s Castle and the heirs of his body, and to the right heirs of the said Alan." In 1316, Aimeri de la Souche was a tenant in he Hundred of Westesewryth, villa de Botburne (Nutborne), Sussex.

In 1261 Commission for William la Zuche , Surrey and Sussex, to deliver the counties and castle of Gildford and mandate John de Wauton to deliver them. Re-comission of John de Wauton of Surrey and Sussex with Guilford Castle; as William la Zouche to whom the King gave the commission is ill, indicating that William had at sometime prior been the Sheriff. 1262-3 Hundred of Bullingfield XXIII- William la Zouche (Suche) the Sheriff, took , by Exchequer summons 40 s. from the vill of Cuckfield (Cokkefeld) and did not acquit the debtors..

The IPM regarding the establishment of age for Alan la Zusche cites Henry la Zuche, clerk, who agrees (to age), for he is his uncle, and likewise knows it from him who was at that time parson of the church at Hamme..? Henry was Clerk in 1289 and parson of East Ham in 1293. Roger la Zouche, Alan's father and William and Oliver's brother, married Ela Longspee and was dead in 1285.

"In 1276 Henry la Zuche brother and heir of William la Zouche who had been sheriff of Sussex 1261-1263 was trying to put off the responsibility for his brother?s debts on William?s son-in-law but in vain; with the late sheriff?s goods and chattels, his debts had gone to his brother and Henry was sent to Fleet prison until he should make satisfaction for the £63 13s 4d owing to the king for William?s term of office 15 years before. " The Hundred and The Hundred Rolls. An outline of local government in medieval England. Helen M. Cam. NY. 1930 . 64.

Can anyone suggest whom this William, sheriff of Sussex might be?

Thanks,
Pat


From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
Date: 2007/01/11 Thu PM 03:04:16 EST
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ellen de
Quincy?

Dear Patricia ~

I think if it can be shown that Ellen de Quincy settled part of her
inheritance on Sir Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth, I think it would
be highly likely that he was her son. The fact that Ellen de Quincy
also had a brother-in-law named Eudes la Zouche does not prevent her
from having a son of the same name. In fact, the repeated occurence of
given names in families is the bane of medieval history and genealogy.
It is sometimes virtually impossible to distinguish father and son,
uncle and nephew from one another because they bear the same given
names.

At this point, other than the property Eudes la Zouche appears to have
obtained from Ellen de Quincy, I'm unaware of what other lands he held
in his own right. In the meantime, thank you for posting a listing of
properties named in the 1353 IPM of William la Zouche of Harringworth.
That's a good start.

However, this problem may be more far difficult to solve than it
appears on the surface. We have no inquisition for Eudes la Zouche
himself. I've suspected for some time that Eudes' son and heir was not
his son, William, by his known marriage to Milicent de Cantelowe, but
rather another son by an earlier unknown marriage. If so, then any
property Eudes had in his own right or by gift of his mother would have
gone to his son or heir by his first wife, and not to William and his
heirs. And, if that line died out, then Eudes' properties would have
escheated to the crown. William would have been unable to inherit if
he was an heir of the half-blood.

Having said that, if we can locate the Quincy properties in
Leicestershire, then we can check them in Farnham's work on
Leicestershire to see if Eudes la Zouche's widow, Milicent de
Cantelowe, claimed dower in any of these estates. Maybe we'll get
lucky. Cross your fingers.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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