Wednesday, 10 January, 2006
Hello All,
In prior threads discussing the family and ancestry of
Dreux, or Drogo de Mantes (d. 1035), father of Ralph 'the
Timid', Earl of Hereford, it was stated that the parentage of
Dreux's great-grandfather Raoul [I] was unknown. It was
previously understood that his grandmother was 'Heilwig'
[or similar], daughter of Eberhard of Friuli, and thereby that
Raoul and those following were of Carolingian descent.
While my own database currently ends with Raoul [I]'s son
Gautier, or Walter [cf. Europäische Stammtafeln, Tafel III:657],
I noted today a statement by Ordericus Vitalis who wrote in
part,
" Drogo, it was said, was of the stock of Charlemagne,
King of the Franks,... " [1]
I would be interested to hear if there is any further
evidence to hand that correctly describes the descent of this
family from the Carolingians. Ralph 'the Timid', Earl of
Hereford, is the ancestor of the Lords Tregoz [of Ewyas
Harold], and Drogo's brother Raoul 'II' was the
great-grandfather of Adela of Vermandois, wife of Hugh 'Magnus'
Count of Vermandois (d. 1101): the descendants of the latter
are far too numerous to mention, royal and otherwise.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901),
p. 149. The complete abstract from Orderic reads as
follows, concerning Walter, Drogo's son:
' Walterius Pontesiensium comes, filius Drogonis comitis,
qui cum Rodberto seniore Normannorum duce in Jerusalem ierat
et in illo itinere peregrinus obierat. Drogo, ut dicitur,
erat de prosapia Caroli Magni regis Francorum, eique
sepedictus dux Rodbertus in conjugium dederat consobrinam
suam, Godivam, sororem Edwardi regis Anglorum, ex qua orti
sunt Radulfus et Gauterius Comites et venerandus Fulco
praesul Ambianensium. '
* John P. Ravilious
Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
Ther...@aol.com wrote:
Raoul I's mother is known from the report of his death in 926 by
Flodoard - "Rodulfus comes, filius Heiluidis, obiit. Non multo post
etiam Rotgarius vitricus ejus, comes Laudunensis pagi, decessit". His
step-father Count Roger of Laon who died soon after was married to
Heiluis, or Heilwig, daughter of Eberhard of Friuli by Gisela whose
parents were Charlemagne's son & heir Louis I and Judith of Bavaria.
It's a while since I read it but I suppose this must be discussed by
Rosamund McKitterick in 'A Frankish Aristocratic Family of the 10th
Century: the Descent of the Tracys from Charlemagne', _The Sudeleys -
Lords of Toddington_, edited by R Smith (London, 1987).
Peter Stewart
Wednesday, 10 January, 2006
Hello All,
In prior threads discussing the family and ancestry of
Dreux, or Drogo de Mantes (d. 1035), father of Ralph 'the
Timid', Earl of Hereford, it was stated that the parentage of
Dreux's great-grandfather Raoul [I] was unknown. It was
previously understood that his grandmother was 'Heilwig'
[or similar], daughter of Eberhard of Friuli, and thereby that
Raoul and those following were of Carolingian descent.
While my own database currently ends with Raoul [I]'s son
Gautier, or Walter [cf. Europäische Stammtafeln, Tafel III:657],
I noted today a statement by Ordericus Vitalis who wrote in
part,
" Drogo, it was said, was of the stock of Charlemagne,
King of the Franks,... " [1]
I would be interested to hear if there is any further
evidence to hand that correctly describes the descent of this
family from the Carolingians. Ralph 'the Timid', Earl of
Hereford, is the ancestor of the Lords Tregoz [of Ewyas
Harold], and Drogo's brother Raoul 'II' was the
great-grandfather of Adela of Vermandois, wife of Hugh 'Magnus'
Count of Vermandois (d. 1101): the descendants of the latter
are far too numerous to mention, royal and otherwise.
Raoul I's mother is known from the report of his death in 926 by
Flodoard - "Rodulfus comes, filius Heiluidis, obiit. Non multo post
etiam Rotgarius vitricus ejus, comes Laudunensis pagi, decessit". His
step-father Count Roger of Laon who died soon after was married to
Heiluis, or Heilwig, daughter of Eberhard of Friuli by Gisela whose
parents were Charlemagne's son & heir Louis I and Judith of Bavaria.
It's a while since I read it but I suppose this must be discussed by
Rosamund McKitterick in 'A Frankish Aristocratic Family of the 10th
Century: the Descent of the Tracys from Charlemagne', _The Sudeleys -
Lords of Toddington_, edited by R Smith (London, 1987).
Peter Stewart
-
Douglas Richardson
Facts not fiction: John de Sudeley's wife, Grace de Tracy
Since Peter mentioned the book on the Sudeley family, I should note
that the historian, Katherine Keats-Rohan (Domesday People, page 725)
says that John de Sudeley married Grace, daughter of William de Tracy,
a natural son of King Henry I. She cites D. Bates, "Lord Sudeley's
Ancestors: the family of the counts of Amiens, Valois and the Vexin",
in "The Sudeleys - Lords of Toddington", The Manorial Society of Great
Britain (1987). The same is said on page 743.
The marriage of John and Grace is dated either c.1130/35 (page 725) or
apparently before 1129, when page 743 says he accounted for a plea of
his wife.
While it is correct that John de Sudeley's wife was named Grace, I find
no evidence whatsoever that Grace was the daughter of William de Tracy,
the illegitimate son of King Henry I of England. Also, I find no
evidence that William de Tracy the bastard was the same person as the
William de Tracy who held the barony of Bradninch, Devon.
What is factual is that William de Tracy who held the barony of
Bradninch, Devon was succeeded by a second William de Tracy, who was
one of the four murderers of Archbishop Thomas a Becket. He in turn
was succeeded by a son and heir, Henry de Tracy. As for Grace, wife of
John de Sudeley, I believe the only evidence that suggests that she was
a Tracy is that her younger son adopted that surname. I don't believe
there is any record of Grace being directly called a Tracy herself.
Would that historians would stick to facts, not fiction.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
that the historian, Katherine Keats-Rohan (Domesday People, page 725)
says that John de Sudeley married Grace, daughter of William de Tracy,
a natural son of King Henry I. She cites D. Bates, "Lord Sudeley's
Ancestors: the family of the counts of Amiens, Valois and the Vexin",
in "The Sudeleys - Lords of Toddington", The Manorial Society of Great
Britain (1987). The same is said on page 743.
The marriage of John and Grace is dated either c.1130/35 (page 725) or
apparently before 1129, when page 743 says he accounted for a plea of
his wife.
While it is correct that John de Sudeley's wife was named Grace, I find
no evidence whatsoever that Grace was the daughter of William de Tracy,
the illegitimate son of King Henry I of England. Also, I find no
evidence that William de Tracy the bastard was the same person as the
William de Tracy who held the barony of Bradninch, Devon.
What is factual is that William de Tracy who held the barony of
Bradninch, Devon was succeeded by a second William de Tracy, who was
one of the four murderers of Archbishop Thomas a Becket. He in turn
was succeeded by a son and heir, Henry de Tracy. As for Grace, wife of
John de Sudeley, I believe the only evidence that suggests that she was
a Tracy is that her younger son adopted that surname. I don't believe
there is any record of Grace being directly called a Tracy herself.
Would that historians would stick to facts, not fiction.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
Dear Peter,
Thanks for the evidence provided (as to Raoul's ancestry, if not
descendants), and the reference to McKitterick. While there are many
references to the work online, unfortunately our friends at the LOC do
not show this work in their online catalogue. I will keep the eyes
open for other means of access.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart wrote:
Thanks for the evidence provided (as to Raoul's ancestry, if not
descendants), and the reference to McKitterick. While there are many
references to the work online, unfortunately our friends at the LOC do
not show this work in their online catalogue. I will keep the eyes
open for other means of access.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart wrote:
Ther...@aol.com wrote:
Wednesday, 10 January, 2006
Hello All,
In prior threads discussing the family and ancestry of
Dreux, or Drogo de Mantes (d. 1035), father of Ralph 'the
Timid', Earl of Hereford, it was stated that the parentage of
Dreux's great-grandfather Raoul [I] was unknown. It was
previously understood that his grandmother was 'Heilwig'
[or similar], daughter of Eberhard of Friuli, and thereby that
Raoul and those following were of Carolingian descent.
While my own database currently ends with Raoul [I]'s son
Gautier, or Walter [cf. Europäische Stammtafeln, Tafel III:657],
I noted today a statement by Ordericus Vitalis who wrote in
part,
" Drogo, it was said, was of the stock of Charlemagne,
King of the Franks,... " [1]
I would be interested to hear if there is any further
evidence to hand that correctly describes the descent of this
family from the Carolingians. Ralph 'the Timid', Earl of
Hereford, is the ancestor of the Lords Tregoz [of Ewyas
Harold], and Drogo's brother Raoul 'II' was the
great-grandfather of Adela of Vermandois, wife of Hugh 'Magnus'
Count of Vermandois (d. 1101): the descendants of the latter
are far too numerous to mention, royal and otherwise.
Raoul I's mother is known from the report of his death in 926 by
Flodoard - "Rodulfus comes, filius Heiluidis, obiit. Non multo post
etiam Rotgarius vitricus ejus, comes Laudunensis pagi, decessit". His
step-father Count Roger of Laon who died soon after was married to
Heiluis, or Heilwig, daughter of Eberhard of Friuli by Gisela whose
parents were Charlemagne's son & heir Louis I and Judith of Bavaria.
It's a while since I read it but I suppose this must be discussed by
Rosamund McKitterick in 'A Frankish Aristocratic Family of the 10th
Century: the Descent of the Tracys from Charlemagne', _The Sudeleys -
Lords of Toddington_, edited by R Smith (London, 1987).
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
John P. Ravilious wrote:
The book on the Sudeleys may be hard to find, but I'm fairly certain
that Rosamond McKitterick's paper in it was reprinted in her Variorum
'Collected Studies' edition, _The Frankish Kings and Culture in the
Early Middle Ages_ (1995).
Peter Stewart
Dear Peter,
Thanks for the evidence provided (as to Raoul's ancestry, if not
descendants), and the reference to McKitterick. While there are many
references to the work online, unfortunately our friends at the LOC do
not show this work in their online catalogue. I will keep the eyes
open for other means of access.
The book on the Sudeleys may be hard to find, but I'm fairly certain
that Rosamond McKitterick's paper in it was reprinted in her Variorum
'Collected Studies' edition, _The Frankish Kings and Culture in the
Early Middle Ages_ (1995).
Peter Stewart
-
taf
Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
John P. Ravilious wrote:
OCLC shows a dozen copies in the US, mostly academic collections:
Stanford, UCLA, UChicago, UKansas, Harvard, NEHGS, Hopkins, Cornell,
NYPubLibResLib, GreeneCty(Oh)PubLib, OhioU, DallasPubLib. Looking at
the list, you should be able to get it ILL. (OCLC #59025398)
taf
Dear Peter,
Thanks for the evidence provided (as to Raoul's ancestry, if not
descendants), and the reference to McKitterick. While there are many
references to the work online, unfortunately our friends at the LOC do
not show this work in their online catalogue. I will keep the eyes
open for other means of access.
It's a while since I read it but I suppose this must be discussed by
Rosamund McKitterick in 'A Frankish Aristocratic Family of the 10th
Century: the Descent of the Tracys from Charlemagne', _The Sudeleys -
Lords of Toddington_, edited by R Smith (London, 1987).
OCLC shows a dozen copies in the US, mostly academic collections:
Stanford, UCLA, UChicago, UKansas, Harvard, NEHGS, Hopkins, Cornell,
NYPubLibResLib, GreeneCty(Oh)PubLib, OhioU, DallasPubLib. Looking at
the list, you should be able to get it ILL. (OCLC #59025398)
taf
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"
In message of 12 Jan, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
A short journey to London could take you to the Society of Genealogists'
library where it, or something very like it, is in the catalogue:
http://www.sog.org.uk/sogcat/access/
if you search the titles for Sudeley and it is about the fifth one down.
(I have it down on my list of things to look at on my next visit.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John P. Ravilious wrote:
Dear Peter,
Thanks for the evidence provided (as to Raoul's ancestry, if not
descendants), and the reference to McKitterick. While there are many
references to the work online, unfortunately our friends at the LOC do
not show this work in their online catalogue. I will keep the eyes
open for other means of access.
The book on the Sudeleys may be hard to find, but I'm fairly certain
that Rosamond McKitterick's paper in it was reprinted in her Variorum
'Collected Studies' edition, _The Frankish Kings and Culture in the
Early Middle Ages_ (1995).
A short journey to London could take you to the Society of Genealogists'
library where it, or something very like it, is in the catalogue:
http://www.sog.org.uk/sogcat/access/
if you search the titles for Sudeley and it is about the fifth one down.
(I have it down on my list of things to look at on my next visit.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/