Giles de Brewes

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Paul Mackenzie

Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 10 jan 2007 11:50:43

Hi all

With the current interest in Mary wife of the William de Brewes d1290 ,
Baron of Bramber, I thought I include my notes on one of their sons
Giles. The following clearly establishes that his second wife Agnes was
the daughter of Nicholas.


GILES DE BREWES

The traditional view of the parentage of Giles de Brewes of Buckingham
was that he was a son of the penultimate Lord of Gower and Bramber,
William de Brewes who died in 1290 and Agnes de Meoles. The Complete
Peerage asserts this traditional view based solely on Giles de Brewes’
Inquisition Post Mortem taken in 14 Edward 11 (1321) (CIPM 6 :168:169).
“The Victorian History of the Counties of England--Buckinghamshire”, Vol
3, page 481 on the other hand states the exact relationship between
Giles and William de Brewes, the Baron of Gower and Bramber is unclear.
D.G. C. Elwes, in his book 'The de Braose family' (W. Pollard 1883),
states in one part that Giles was either the son or younger brother of
William de Brewes the penultimate Baron of Gower and Bramber. In
another part of his book, D. G. C. Elwes asserts that Giles was the son
of William de Brewes the penultimate Baron and his wife Agnes de Meoles.
His asssertion is based on a secondary source Hutchins, “The History of
Dorsetshire” third edition, vol iii pages 151 and 157. The present
paper firstly gives an outline of the family of William de Brewes the
penultimate Baron and secondly seeks to prove in a more rigous manner
the parentage of Giles de Brewes of Buckingham.

According to The Complete Peerage, Sir William de Breuse (I), Baron of
Bramber and Gower, was the son and heir of John de Breuse and Margaret
daughter of Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. He succeeded
his father in 1232 and was of full age before 1245. He supposedly
married firstly, Aline, daughter of Thomas de Multon, by whom he had a
son William (II) and married secondly, Agnes, daughter of Nicholas de
Moels of Cadbury, Somerset, by whom he had a son Giles. He married
thirdly, Mary daughter of Robert de Ros of Helmsley, by whom he had four
children Richard, Peter, Margaret, and William Junior (III). He died 6
Jan 1290/1 at Findon, West Sussex and was buried at Sele Priory, Sussex
15 January 1290/91. His widow, Mary died shortly before 23 May 1326.
William (II), son and heir by his first wife had livery of his father's
lands 1 Mar 1290/91.

Giles’s father, William de Brewosa, is mentioned in the aforementioned
Inquisition Post Mortem taken in 14 Edward 11 (1321). This inquisition
was a result of a complaint by Richard le Wolf and Maud his wife, that
the escheator had taken into the king's hand the manor of Knolton and
other lands, &c of the said Giles, sometime the husband of the said
Maud, the wardship whereof, and that John son and heir of the said
Giles, pertains to them because the said Maud is next (friend) of the
said heir. In this inquisition, Giles was said to hold the manor of la
Wodelande with the hundred of Knolton and other appurtenances of the
heirs of Nicholas de Meoles, as of a gift of free marriage made to
William de Brewosa his father without any service. He held no lands of
the king in chief in the county, by which the wardship of his lands or
the marriage of his heir ought to pertain to the king (CIPM 6 :168:169).

In a much earlier Inquisition post mortem on Giles de Brewosa, he was
said to hold at his death; the manor of Cnolton, Dorset with a hundred
there, including a capital messuage, 311 1/2 acres of arable land and
several pastures at 'la Wodelonde', and a wood called Baggeham, held of
the earl of Gloucester by service of a knight's fee; the manor of
Buckingham including a capital messuage called the castle of Buckingham,
a market and a fair lasting two days, held of the earl of Gloucester by
service of a knight's fee. His heir to these manors was his son John de
Brewes who was born in 1301. Giles also held for life the manor of
Crowell of Oxford, by the courtesy of England of the inheritance of
Beatrice daughter and heir of John de Sancta Elena, sometime his wife,
of the king in chief of the honour of Christchurch Twynham; and a
capital messuage, lands, rents &c in West Wytteham, Berkshire similarly
held for life, of the earl Marshall and his heirs by service of 1/3
knight's fee, rendered 2s. yearly. Giles and Beatrice heir to these
properties were their daughter Lucy.

Giles’s mother was declared in an assize of novel disseisin in 1305 as
being Agnes daughter of Nicholas de Meules. The plaintiff of this novel
disseisin was one John, an infant and son of of Giles de Breux who
brought proceedings against Ralph de Monthermer Earl of Gloucester and
Joan his wife. He complained he was disseised of certain tenements,
whereas Ralph and Joan claimed wardship in the tenements by reason of
the nonage of the said John. The Assize came and were told how the
tenements put in view were at a certain time in the seisin of the one
Nicholas de Meules, who held those tenements of Gilbert de Clare,
formerly Earl of Gloucester, by knight service; which Nicholas gave the
same tenements out of his seisin in frank-marriage to one William de
Breux in frank marriage with Agnes his daughter; William and Agnes were
seised by virtue of that gift. After the deaths of William and Agnes,
Giles by extortion attorned to Gilbert for his homage, and afterwards of
his own free will attorned for his fealty to Ralph de Monthermer the
husband of Joan. After Gile's death, Earl Ralph entered claiming
wardship and marriage of John son of Giles and that John came and wished
to have entered after his father's death and the Earl would not allow
it. The parties on this verdict were adjourned to the Bench for their
judgement. The Bench adjudged that John should recover his seisin and
that the other be in mercy (Edward I Year Books Mich. Term 33-35Edw. I).

It must be appreciated, however, that the foregoing documents by
themselves are not conclusive that Giles was the son of the penultimate
Baron of Gower and Bramber, William de Brewes d1290. This is abundantly
clear from the fact that these documents make no specific reference to
the said Lordship of Gower and Bramber. However, further insight into
Giles parentage can be obtained from the following documents.

One of these documents is sourced from the records of the Easter
Parliament of 1291. It concerns the proceedings on the dower claim of
Mary, the widow of William de Braose d1290, to half of the manor of
Wickhambreux against William, the son of William de Braose.

In these proceedings Mary, the widow of William de Braose, claimed
before the lord king and his council against William, the son of William
de Braose, half the manor of Wickhambreux with its appurtenances in the
county of Kent as her dower, as her share of the free tenement late of
William de Braose, her late husband etc. And on this matter she says
that the aforesaid William, formerly her husband, died seised of the
aforesaid manor with its appurtenances in his demesne as of fee etc.
[The original document states Wycham]

And the aforesaid William appears through a certain Nicholas Seliman,
his attorney. He says that the aforesaid manor did at one time belong to
the aforesaid William, formerly the husband of the aforesaid Mary; which
William, a long time before he married the aforesaid Mary, enfeoffed a
certain Giles, his son, of the aforesaid manor with its appurtenances,
and put him in full seisin of it: so that afterwards, in the court of
the lord king Henry, the father of the present lord king, before master
Roger of Seaton and his colleagues, the same lord king Henry's justices
of the Bench, in the fifty-fifth year of his reign, a certain fine was
levied on this matter between the aforesaid William and Giles, through
which fine the same William acknowledged the aforesaid tenements with
appurtenances, together with other tenements, to be the right of the
same Giles, as things which the same Giles had of the gift of the
aforesaid William. And he says that he afterwards acquired the aforesaid
manor with appurtenances from the aforesaid Giles, and so he says that
the aforesaid William, formerly the husband etc., from the time of the
levying of the aforesaid fine, through which he surrendered the free
tenement and fee of the aforesaid tenements, was never afterwards in
seisin of the aforesaid manor, so as to be able to endow the aforesaid
Mary or any other with it. And he is prepared to prove this in any way
the court etc.

And the aforesaid Mary says that the aforesaid William ought not to be
admitted to prove anything at present. For she says that the same
William, after the death of William his father, came to the lord king's
court and requested and obtained a writ of the lord king, to enquire as
to the tenements of which the same William his father died seised in his
demesne as of fee, and who was his next heir, as is the custom in the
lord king's chancery after the death of a tenant in chief of the lord
king; through which inquisition, prosecuted at the suit of the same
William, and held before the lord king's escheator, it was found that
the aforesaid William his father had died seised of the aforesaid manor
with its appurtenances together with other tenements in his demesne as
in fee, and that the same William was his next heir; by reason of which
inquisition afterwards returned to chancery, the same William had his
seisin of the aforesaid manor, as of the other tenements of which he
died seised: whence, since by the aforesaid inquisition held by a writ
of the lord king - to which inquisition the same William cannot deny
that he was a party, since that writ by which it was held was acquired
at the suit of the same William, and that inquisition was summoned,
prosecuted and held at his suit - the same William requested the seisin
of the aforesaid manor to be delivered to him by reason of that
inquisition, and obtained it, as of a tenement of which his father died
seised, as was found by that inquisition, she asks for judgment as to
whether the aforesaid William ought to be admitted to prove anything.

Whereupon the same William, asked whether he claims to hold the
aforesaid tenements by hereditary descent from the aforesaid William his
father, or as his acquisition from the aforesaid Giles, whom William his
father enfeoffed with the aforesaid manor by his charter, on which a
certain fine was afterwards allegedly levied, says that he does not
claim to hold the aforesaid manor by hereditary descent from the
aforesaid William his father, but rather as his acquisition from the
aforesaid Giles, and he says expressly that the aforesaid William his
father, and formerly the husband etc., was not seised of the aforesaid
manor as of fee on the day on which he married the aforesaid Mary or at
any time afterwards, so as to be able to dower her with it. And on this
matter he puts himself on the country. And Mary likewise. (The
Parliament Rolls of Medieval England by SDE).

The outcome of these proceedings is unclear. Notwithstanding, the
inquisition post mortem (CIPM 6:435) on William de Brewosa the last
Baron of Gower and Bramber in 1326 found that he held at his death the
manors of Kneppe and Beaubusson and the town of Horsham for life as part
of the barony of Brembre, by virtue of a fine levied in the king's court
between Aline late the wife of John de Moubray and the said earl Hugh
Despencer. And the said William lately held the castle and the manor of
Brembre with the town of Shorham (extent given), for life as part of the
aforesaid barony, as of the inheritance of the said earl as appears by
the fine aforesaid, but demised them to the king, for his own life. In
addition thereto, the inquiry found he also held the manor and advowson
of Wykham of Kent.

The foregoing documents concerning the manor of Wykham of Kent
establishes that William the penultimate baron of Gower and Bramber had
a son & heir named William and a younger son named Giles. However, it
is not possible to determine from the foregoing documents whether this
Giles is indeed Giles de Brewes of Knolton and Buckingham.

Further documentation concerning the relationship between Giles de
Brewes and William de Brewes is evident from the descent of the manor of
Buckingham. “The Victorian History of the Counties of
England--Buckinghamshire”, page 480-481) states that “Richard de Clare
granted Buckingham in dower on the marriage of his daughter (whose name
has not been preserved) with a William de Brewes. This William de
Brewes held the manor until his death, which appears to have taken place
before 1215. As an outcome of his father’s rebellion he and his mother
were allegedly starved to death by order of the king. He left a son
John de Brewes on whose death in or about 1232 the guardianship of his
two sons passed to Peter de Rivall. Margaret widow of John appears
reluctant to act, for in the following year her dower in Buckingham
Manor was assigned to him until she should give up her two sons.
William de Brewes, the elder of the two, is mentioned as responsible for
a debt of his father in 1245 but did not obtain full possession of the
manor till 1259 when his mother had surrended all claims in the dower in
return for 40 pounds yearly. William Senior’s death took place some time
before 1284, when his son William held the vill of Buckingham and half
the hamlet of Bourton.” The latter statement appears to be incorrect,
as it is well known that William the Elder did not die until 1290/1. It
seems that William the Elder gave the manor of Buckingham and half the
hamlet of Burton to his son William the younger. This is supported by
the hundred rolls for Buckinhamshire in 1279 which state the tenement
[Buckingham] was held by William de Breuse for one knights fee of
William de Breuse his father, & the same William held of Earl Gloucester
(Rotuli Hundredorum Vol 1 p343). Afterwards, we find Giles de Brewes
residing at Buckingham in 1297 where his daughter Lucy was born (CIPM
5:417). It seems that, William the Elder gave the manor of Buckingham
and half the hamlet of Burton to his son William the younger, who
subsequently transferred it to Giles de Brewes, who was holding it at
his death. Giles de Brewes died sometime prior to 7 Jan 33 Edward 1
(1305) and at his inquisition post mortem concerning his lands in
Buckingham, he was said to possess the manor of Buckingham including a
capital messuage called the castle of Buckingham, a market and a fair
lasting two days, held of the earl of Gloucester by service of a
knight's fee (CIPM 4:214). On the death of Giles in 1305 the manor
passed to his son John, then aged three. In 1325 John de Brewes,
together with his wife Sara, made a settlement of two parts of the manor
on Robert Spigurnell, the third part being retained by Mary de Brewes,
presumably as part of her dower, who died the following year in 1326.

The inquisition post mortem of Mary de Brewes who died in 1326, the
widow of the penultimate William the Baron of Gower and Bramber, states
that she held at her death the Buckingham manor and the hamlet of
Bourton of Hugh de Audele and Margaret his wife, as of the pourparty of
the said Margaret, one of the heirs of the late earl of Gloucester, by
service of a knights' fee. There is no mention in her inquisition post
mortem of whom was her heir to her rights, if any, to the lands in
Buckinghamshire. Subsequent to her death, the manor reverted back to
John de Brewes son of Giles de Brewes. We can conclude that Mary, the
widow of William de Brewes Senior, the penultimate Baron of Gower and
Bramber claimed a third part of Buckingham manor as part of her dowry,
even though William Senior had transferred the manor to his son William
who in turn transferred it to his younger step brother Giles. It should
be noted that the descent of the manor of Buckingham is similar in
nature to the descent of the manor of Wykham.

From the foregoing, the evidence clearly leads to the conclusion that
Giles de Brewes of Buckingham was a younger son of William de Brewes,
the penultimate Baron of Gower and Bramber and Agnes Meules. This
conclusion affirms the traditionalist view of the parentage of Giles de
Brewes. Furthermore, the aforementioned assize of novel disseisin
suggests that Giles de Brewes was the son and heir of Agnes Meules by
William de Brewes, as it says that Giles did homage after the death of
his parents William and Agnes. This leads to the conclusion that Giles
de Brewes of Buckingham and William de Brewes, the last Baron of Gower
and Bramber were half brothers.


PW Mackenzie

John P. Ravilious

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 10 jan 2007 16:23:50

Dear Paul,

Many thanks for that fine post on Giles de Brewes (als de Braose,
de Breuse &c.).

Among the several items you cited, it was interesting to note that
all sources (incl. IPMs) validated the part of D. C. Elwes' chart of
the de Braose family showing Giles de Brewes' two wives, and part of
the issue by each (Lucy and John). This chart is shown in the prior
SGM post, "Wife of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark, Northumberland" [SGM, 8
Jan 2007].

Now, if we can only resolve the identification of William 'the
penultimate' de Braose's first wife, Agnes......<g>

Cheers,

John




Paul Mackenzie wrote:
Hi all

SNIP of a very helpful post

Douglas Richardson

Sir Giles de Brewes (died 1305), of Buckingham, Buckinghamsh

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 jan 2007 16:27:36

Dear Paul ~

Thank you for your thorough review of the evidence relating to the
parentage of Sir Giles de Brewes (died 1305), of Buckingham,
Buckinghamshire. It was most interesting reading.

I might add that Gerald Paget in his work, Baronage of England (1957)
90: 7-8 (sub Braose) correctly identified Sir Giles de Brewes as a
younger son of Sir William de Brewes, 1st Lord Brewes, died 1291, by
his second wife, Agnes, daughter of Nicholas de Moeles, of Cadbury,
Somerset. This identification was made evidently based on the passage
of Agnes de Moeles' maritagium, namely the manors of Woodlands (in
Horton) and Knowlton, Dorset, to her son, Sir Giles de Brewes.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the various 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Sir Giles de Brewes:

Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert,
Thomas Owsley, Mary Johanna Somerset, Thomas Wingfield, Thomas Yale

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 jan 2007 16:40:41

John P. Ravilious wrote:
< Among the several items you cited, it was interesting to note that
< all sources (incl. IPMs) validated the part of D. C. Elwes' chart of
< the de Braose family showing Giles de Brewes' two wives, and part of
< the issue by each (Lucy and John).

Dear John ~

D.C. Elwes' work on the Brewes family is very unreliable. As Paul has
pointed out, Elwes identified Sir Giles de Brewes as EITHER the son or
younger brother of Sir William de Brewes, 1st Lord Brewes (died 1291),
even though the evidence is quite good that Sir Giles was the son of
Sir William.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't place much stock in anything Mr. Elwes wrote.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 10 jan 2007 17:37:26

In message of 10 Jan, Paul Mackenzie <paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

Hi all

With the current interest in Mary wife of the William de Brewes d1290 ,
Baron of Bramber, I thought I include my notes on one of their sons
Giles.

<snip of excellent discussion of the known evidence, etc>

From the foregoing, the evidence clearly leads to the conclusion that
Giles de Brewes of Buckingham was a younger son of William de Brewes,
the penultimate Baron of Gower and Bramber and Agnes Meules. This
conclusion affirms the traditionalist view of the parentage of Giles de
Brewes. Furthermore, the aforementioned assize of novel disseisin
suggests that Giles de Brewes was the son and heir of Agnes Meules by
William de Brewes, as it says that Giles did homage after the death of
his parents William and Agnes. This leads to the conclusion that Giles
de Brewes of Buckingham and William de Brewes, the last Baron of Gower
and Bramber were half brothers.

Many thanks for all the above and for the very cogent conclusions.

There is now Elizabeth de Brewes who married William Frome of Woodlands,
Devon. Some accounts say that Elizabeth was Giles' daughter and some
that she was his granddaughter. Do you have any views on this? Or even
some evidence?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Douglas Richardson

Sir Giles de Brewes (died 1305), of Buckingham, Buckinghamsh

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 10 jan 2007 18:00:44

Dear Tim ~

Roskell, House of Commons, 1386-1421, 3 (1992): 133-135 identifies
Elizabeth, wife of William Frome, as the daughter and heiress of John
Brewes, of Buckingham, Buckinghamshire.

Roskell is correct.

Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John P. Ravilious

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 10 jan 2007 19:00:09

Dear Doug,

Agreed. Hence my notation that Paul's research had confirmed
PART of the chart presented by D. C. Elwes in that particular N&Q
article. Nothing more was meant, as regards Mr. Elwes' research or
findings.

Cheers,

John



Douglas Richardson wrote:
John P. Ravilious wrote:
Among the several items you cited, it was interesting to note that
all sources (incl. IPMs) validated the part of D. C. Elwes' chart of
the de Braose family showing Giles de Brewes' two wives, and part of
the issue by each (Lucy and John).

Dear John ~

D.C. Elwes' work on the Brewes family is very unreliable. As Paul has
pointed out, Elwes identified Sir Giles de Brewes as EITHER the son or
younger brother of Sir William de Brewes, 1st Lord Brewes (died 1291),
even though the evidence is quite good that Sir Giles was the son of
Sir William.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't place much stock in anything Mr. Elwes wrote.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 11 jan 2007 02:14:05

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 10 Jan, Paul Mackenzie <paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au> wrote:


Hi all

With the current interest in Mary wife of the William de Brewes d1290 ,
Baron of Bramber, I thought I include my notes on one of their sons
Giles.


snip of excellent discussion of the known evidence, etc

From the foregoing, the evidence clearly leads to the conclusion that
Giles de Brewes of Buckingham was a younger son of William de Brewes,
the penultimate Baron of Gower and Bramber and Agnes Meules. This
conclusion affirms the traditionalist view of the parentage of Giles de
Brewes. Furthermore, the aforementioned assize of novel disseisin
suggests that Giles de Brewes was the son and heir of Agnes Meules by
William de Brewes, as it says that Giles did homage after the death of
his parents William and Agnes. This leads to the conclusion that Giles
de Brewes of Buckingham and William de Brewes, the last Baron of Gower
and Bramber were half brothers.


Many thanks for all the above and for the very cogent conclusions.

There is now Elizabeth de Brewes who married William Frome of Woodlands,
Devon. Some accounts say that Elizabeth was Giles' daughter and some
that she was his granddaughter. Do you have any views on this? Or even
some evidence?



The only evidence I have on the relationship between Frome and Brewes is
the following. I do not have any substantive evidence. Though some may
exist.



1386
WILLIAM DE SPYGURNEL
Inq. p.m. Buckingham and Bedford
Loughton co. Buckingham. The manor held of John Frome of buckingham, by
service of scutage and doing suit to the court of the earl of Ormound
twice a year.
CIPM 16: 172,173

1389
13 RICHARD II.
John Frome of Buckingham, William, vicar of the church of Cudlington,
Thomas Houkyn of Oxford, and John Worton, to grant the reversion of
messuages in the suburb of Oxford, now held for life by John Hardy and
Alice his wife, to the abbot and convent of Oseney, John Frome retaining
a messuage and land in Thrup, William the vicar rent in Kidlington, and
Thomas Houkyn and John Worton messuages in the suburb of Oxford.
PROCAT C 143/409/5

1399
Inq. p.m. Buckingham John Frome held Buckingham manor.
IPM 22 Ric II, no. 46

1428
BERKSHIRE
Hundred de OK et SUTTON
Humfridus de Stafforde, chivalier, tenet terras et tenementa in WYTTENAM
COMITIS, que quondam fuerunt Egidii de Brewisa, de comite Mareschallo,
per que servicia dicta juratores ignorant.
Feudal Aids Vol 1, p63

1346
DORSET
Hundred of CNOLTON
De Willelmo pro. unum feodi in WODELOND, quod Johannes de Brewes quondam
tenuit.
Feudal Aids Vol 2 p64

N.B. It is alleged that John Frome married Elizabeth de Brewes daughter
of John and Sarah Brewes (Lipscombe, op.cit. I, 395)

dunsland@yahoo.com

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av dunsland@yahoo.com » 15 jan 2007 04:21:29

Paul Mackenzie wrote:
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
There is now Elizabeth de Brewes who married William Frome of Woodlands,
Devon. Some accounts say that Elizabeth was Giles' daughter and some
that she was his granddaughter. Do you have any views on this? Or even
some evidence?



The only evidence I have on the relationship between Frome and Brewes is
the following. I do not have any substantive evidence. Though some may
exist.

From a secondary source dealing with some medieval Dorset ancestry I
have gleaned the following information:


Giles de Briouze and his first wife Beatrix de St Helena have tombs in
Horton church. Their son John settled two thirds of the manor of
Buckingham on a Robert Spigurnell. John also granted a shop in the town
of Buckingham to a tailor and died soon after 1335.
John's daughter Elizabeth brought the manor of Buckingham, rated at 2
knight's fees and forty pounds per annum, to William Frome. He was also
lord of the manor of Woodlands (which Douglas has said earlier in this
thread was Agnes' maritagium, inherited in turn by Giles de Briouze) in
the Hundred of Knowlton in East Dorset. William's son John Frome was an
MP and is said to have married a lady of the Tregoz family and to have
inherited the manor of Buckingham through his mother. Apparently there
is an extensive biography of him in the "History of the House of
Commons" . He died in 1404 leaving two daughters as coheiresses,
including Joan the wife of William Filliol, who was an MP for Dorset in
1414. William Filliol died in 1416 and was buried at St Wolfrida's
church in Horton. Joan remarried in 1417 to Sir Richard Arches, MP, as
his second wife. Arches was killed fighting the French in September
1417 and Joan remarried again in 1420 to Sir William Cheyne, chief
justice of the King's Bench. She died in 1434 and left a will.
Her son by William Filliol, John, lived at Woodlands in Horton and
married Margaret Carent and died in 1467.

John Filliol incidentally is my own forebear.
Mark Harry

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Giles de Brewes

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 15 jan 2007 14:48:06

dunsland@yahoo.com wrote:

Paul Mackenzie wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

There is now Elizabeth de Brewes who married William Frome of Woodlands,

Devon. Some accounts say that Elizabeth was Giles' daughter and some
that she was his granddaughter. Do you have any views on this? Or even
some evidence?



The only evidence I have on the relationship between Frome and Brewes is
the following. I do not have any substantive evidence. Though some may
exist.


From a secondary source dealing with some medieval Dorset ancestry I
have gleaned the following information:

Giles de Briouze and his first wife Beatrix de St Helena have tombs in
Horton church. Their son John settled two thirds of the manor of
Buckingham on a Robert Spigurnell. John also granted a shop in the town
of Buckingham to a tailor and died soon after 1335.
John's daughter Elizabeth brought the manor of Buckingham, rated at 2
knight's fees and forty pounds per annum, to William Frome. He was also
lord of the manor of Woodlands (which Douglas has said earlier in this
thread was Agnes' maritagium, inherited in turn by Giles de Briouze) in
the Hundred of Knowlton in East Dorset. William's son John Frome was an
MP and is said to have married a lady of the Tregoz family and to have
inherited the manor of Buckingham through his mother. Apparently there
is an extensive biography of him in the "History of the House of
Commons" . He died in 1404 leaving two daughters as coheiresses,
including Joan the wife of William Filliol, who was an MP for Dorset in
1414. William Filliol died in 1416 and was buried at St Wolfrida's
church in Horton. Joan remarried in 1417 to Sir Richard Arches, MP, as
his second wife. Arches was killed fighting the French in September
1417 and Joan remarried again in 1420 to Sir William Cheyne, chief
justice of the King's Bench. She died in 1434 and left a will.
Her son by William Filliol, John, lived at Woodlands in Horton and
married Margaret Carent and died in 1467.

John Filliol incidentally is my own forebear.
Mark Harry



Hi Mark

I would be great if we could get some primary references on this issue.
I tried searching for the biography of him on the internet without much
success. Do you know of any primary references.

I found another descent proposed in Collectanea Topographica Et
Genealogica ---Dugdales Additions p77, which says that John de Brewes
died without heirs and Buckingham descended to John Frome the son of
William Frome and Maud de Brewes his sister.

Notwithstanding the above, the facts that we know so far are:

John de Brewes son of Giles was born around 1301/2 [1] and married Sara
prior to 1327[2]. . He was living in 1346 when he held the manors of
Buckingham and Woodlands [4][5] but died some time prior to August 1349
[3]. Sara his wife was still living in 1360-1367 when she held in dower
some lands in Buckingham[6][7].

John de Brewes did have a sister named Maud but apparently she married a
William Bekebyr [8]


[1]1305
GILES DE BREWOSA ALIAS DE BREOUSA
Writ, 7 Jan 33 Edward 1.
Dorset. Inq. Wednesday the feast of St. Matthias, 33 Edward 1.
Cnolton. The manor with a hundred there, including a capital messuage,
311 1/2 a. arable and a several pasture at 'la Wodelonde', and a wood
called Baggeham, held of the earl of Gloucester by service of a knight's
fee.
John his son, aged 3 1/2 years at the feast of the Purification last, is
his next heir.
Oxford. Inq. made at Thame, 6 March, 33 Edward 1.
Crowell. The manor held for life, by the courtesy of England of the
inheritance of Beatrice daughter and heir of John de Sancta Elena,
sometime his wife, of the king in chief of the honour of Christchurch
Twynham, now in the king's hand by the gift of Isabel de Fortibus,
sometime countess of Albemarle, by service of 1/2 knight's fee,
rendering 20s. 10d. yearly to the king at his exchequer by the hand of
the steward of the honour of Walingford, because the said manor is
within the Chiltern 4 1/2 hundreds and taxable there.
Lucy, daughter of the said Giles and Beatrice, aged 7 at the feast of
St. Michael last, is his next heir.
Berks. Inq. 3 March 33 Edward 1.
West Wytteham. A capital messuage, lands, rents &c similarly held for
life, of the earl Marshall and his heirs by service of 1/3 knight's fee,
rendered 2s. yearly.
Heir as last above.
Buckingham. Inq. 18 March, 33 Edward 1.
Buckingham. The manor including a capital messuage called the castle of
Buckingham, a market and a fair lasting two days, held of the earl of
Gloucester by service of a knight's fee.
Heir as first above, aged 3 at the feast of St. Augustine the Apostle of
the English last.
Writ of certiora to the escheator to enquire whether the said Giles held
anything of the king in chief as of the crown, and whether the honour of
Christchurch Twynham was ever the demesne of the crown, or nor, 24
March, 33 Edw. 1
Oxford Inq. made at Crowell, 22 April, 33 Edw. 1.
The said Giles held nothing as of the crown. The honour of Christchurch
Twynham was never of the demesne of the crown of England.
CIPM 4:214
[2] 1327 John de Brewes and Sara his wife,made a settlement of two parts
of the manor on Robert Spigurnel, the third part still being retained by
Mary widow of William de Brewes, who died the following year.
History of Buckingshire, VCH v3 p481 referencing Buckinghamshire Feet of
Fines 18 edw II no. 1
[3] August 24 Westminster
Order to Thomas Frembaud, escheator in the counties of Bedford and
Buckingham, to take into the king's hands the lands and to make
inquisition touching the lands late of John de Brewes, lord de Bukyngham.
CF 1349:110,127
[4]1346 BUCKINGHAM
Hundred de STODFOLDE
De Johanne de Breuse pro unum feodi militis in BUCKYNGHAM, quod Egidius
de Breuse quondam tenuit de comite Gloicestrie
Feudal Aid Vol 1, p126
[5]1346 DORSET
Hundred of CNOLTON
De Johanne de Brewes tenet pro. unum feodi in LA WODELOND, quod Egidius
de Brewes quondam.
Feudal Aids Vol 2 p48
[6]1360
THEOBALD GROSSET
INQ. P.M 33 Edward 111
Buckingham Inq. taken at Buckingham, Saturday before the Nativity of St.
John the Baptist, 33 Edward 111.
Bourton. A messuage and a carcuate of land held of lady Sarah de Brewes
in socage by service of 1 lb. of pepper.
CIPM 10:387
[7] 1367
WILLIAM DE SPYGURNEL
Inq. p.m. Buckingham and Bedford
Loughton co. Buckingham. The manor held of the lady Sarah Brewes, lady
of Buckingham, by service of scutage when it occurs and by suit to the
court of the earl of Ormound twice a year.
CIPM 12: 78,57
[8] 23 July 1320
MARRIAGE SETTLEMENTS . Note of judgement in church of Gussinch Regis
(?Gussage), Sarum diocese, before Archdeacon of Dorset's Official
concerning Sir Jn. Bekebyr and Jn. de Brewes and Rich. le Wolfs (?).
Last two bound to Sir J. Bekebyr in 200 marks on marriage between Wm. s.
of Sir J.B. and Matilda le Brewes dau. of Giles le Brewes. Sir John
takes oath not to give away any part of their lands. Official binds
parties to observe same agreement. Fragment of seal (eagle) on tag.
Reference: ME/819, Cornwall Record Office: Edgcumbe of Cotehele and
Mount Edgcumbe [ME/1 - ME/1539] (http://www.a2a.org.uk)

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